What is fundamentally wrong in MMORPG's, and what can be done to fix them?

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

I would have to say that the biggest problem I have found with every MMORPG I have played is - magic is way too powerful.

As a Christian I am not big on usage of magic in a game I play. Given the choice, I will avoid the magic, and use a character who relies on their brawn. Herein lies the problem - every MMORPG I have played gives the advantage to the magic user.

I got so disgusted with this promotion of magic that I turned off playing any games online for a great many years. I have since played games like Animal Crossing, and Mario Kart online.

Another rather large problem with the MMORPG's in my book is the pricing plans. You buy a month, or two, and then cram as much play time into that month. This really is not a lot of fun, since the entire concept has the player obsessing over the game. Sure you can play a little here and there, but then you feel like you wasted your money.

Solutions:
Problem 1: Better balance, and have magic do less damage. Also allow fighters to actually crush mages if they get in close.

Problem 2: Better pricing is one idea. The second idea I have is a complete overhaul of how the game is played. Think about this: you buy the game, and play it on your PC. The player is then allowed to purchase online where different areas can be accessed, and other players can be met up with. This way online is additional to the existing game. If a player wants to work on skills offline, they can. That takes away the feeling of wasting money, and obsession. The online communities could be as robust as they are now, and it would not be turning as many people away.

Anyways I am curious to what some of ya'll think.

 

[InnerPhyre]

So wait. Maybe I'm not getting this here. You're against magic in a fantasy game....because it's unChristian.....but in the same fantasy game...you prefer to use brute force to hack your enemies asunder...and that's perfectly Christian? It's a game, dude. If using magic in a videogame is sinful, then so is chopping your enemies to bits.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Problem 1: Better balance, and have magic do less damage. Also allow fighters to actually crush mages if they get in close.

Actually, that has been exactly my experience in all the MMORPGs I've played. At a distance, casters rule, up close, it's the melees. That's why casters use the "kiting" method when hunting and melees use the "get in its face and beat it till it quits moving" method.

If you are so opposed to the use of "magic" in fantasy games, I'd suggest you just quit playing them and move on to something else. If you remove the "magic" it will cease to be a fantasy game. Maybe you should play Anarchy Online. The "magic" has been changed to nano-technology so you wouldn't be doing anything demonic by playing a "caster" type class on there.

 

[Dracil]

I would have to say that the biggest problem I have found with every MMORPG I have played is - magic is way too powerful.

As a Christian I am not big on usage of magic in a game I play. Given the choice, I will avoid the magic, and use a character who relies on their brawn. Herein lies the problem - every MMORPG I have played gives the advantage to the magic user.

I got so disgusted with this promotion of magic that I turned off playing any games online for a great many years. I have since played games like Animal Crossing, and Mario Kart online.

Another rather large problem with the MMORPG's in my book is the pricing plans. You buy a month, or two, and then cram as much play time into that month. This really is not a lot of fun, since the entire concept has the player obsessing over the game. Sure you can play a little here and there, but then you feel like you wasted your money.

Another alternative is used by EVE online. It's still a subscription model, but your character continues training even when you DON'T play the game. You have to be online to train a new skill when the old one finishes, but other than that, everyone trains at the same speed, whether you play 10 hours a day, or 30 minutes a day.

Solutions:
Problem 1: Better balance, and have magic do less damage. Also allow fighters to actually crush mages if they get in close.

Problem 2: Better pricing is one idea. The second idea I have is a complete overhaul of how the game is played. Think about this: you buy the game, and play it on your PC. The player is then allowed to purchase online where different areas can be accessed, and other players can be met up with. This way online is additional to the existing game. If a player wants to work on skills offline, they can. That takes away the feeling of wasting money, and obsession. The online communities could be as robust as they are now, and it would not be turning as many people away.

Anyways I am curious to what some of ya'll think.

For problem 1, play World of Warcraft. Warriors and Rogues own casters. Especially well-equipped Warriors, they're like Hammers in a Rock Paper Scissors game.

For problem 2, that will not work. There MUST be a strict separation of offline and online. Cheating and hacking becomes a severe problem otherwise.

Several MMORPGs are offering alternatives to the subscription solution. Korean MMORPGs are a fan of paying for privileges. Usually they only give cosmetic upgrades or just make your life easier, and won't otherwise affect your game if you don't pay. There's also Puzzle Pirates, where you require badges to experience the full game. Badges need to be bought with doubloons which only enter the game from people paying cash. You are allowed to buy doubloons from other players with in-game money though, and they even have an exchange center in-game for that.

Those who don't want to pay, don't have to. Those who have lots of money, can pay to get ahead in the game. And because badges decay, it ensures that doubloons continue to get removed from the game, preventing inflation.

 

[ozanaki tori]

Dang, I'm out of the loop. I was an avid (if not largely successful) Puzzle Pirate for a year or more, but stopped playing altogether late last year. Most people when asked about the doubloons would just say 'I dunno, it's something some people do sometime.'
Heh.

Anyway, as for the OP:
I don't play MMORPGs [besides Puzzle Pirates], though I did spend some time on Flyff and Maplestory recently, and gave the free Anarchy Online bits a try.
It's my experience in gaming in general (and in MMOs by proxy, a couple of my friends being hardcore WoW players) that caster types actually aren't all that powerful, usually taking back-up roles.
Generally, if I play a game - be it MMO or single-player/hotseat - I go tank or rogue-type. Generally, if I try playing as a caster-type, I die all the time because I try charging and fighting - yet charging and fighting always works just fine against caster types because they tend to be weak, ill-protected, et cetera in their lower levels.

I have to echo some previous comments - I can understand being against magic in games, I was for many years when I was a Christian.
But, I was never at all against violence in video games and that is what made me realise that I was running a double standard.
Christianity has a violent history - the Old Testament is full of conquest and violent bloodshed - but, when the violence is acted out in the Bible (a couple of times in the New Testament [the overturning of money-changers' tables, for instance] and numerous times in the Old Testament) it is done by the Will of God or by a God granted Righteousness.
Because of this, the murder or violent deeds are not 'bad' because they are done for or by God.
But, deeds of 'magic' were preformed in the Bible under the same guise - the miracles before the Egyptians were replicated (to some degree) by the sorcerers. However, it was justified - it was a miracle, not a work of magic, because it was from God.

So, while one might be able to say 'I'm using violence in video games to kill bad guys, so it's okay, because it's righteous and just,' then one could also say 'I'm using magic in video games to kill bad guys, so it's okay, because it's righteous and just.'
Neither are from God, both could be considered sinful.

Thusly, if one of the problems with MMOs is that the game is geared to heavily toward tactical magic use, I would do some evaluation of the subject a bit more.

As for the two posed problems,
1) Balance, but do not lessen the damage. A properly balanced game will have physically weak but magically powerful casters.
RPG type games are almost always based on the old rock paper scissors, fire water leaf, so on and so forth balance. Even if the themes of the game do not point it out (like they do in games such as Vantage Master and Pocket Monsters), the idea is still there - a balance between strengths and weaknesses for each character class so that a person skilled using the different tactics in the game will have an equal chance at whooping up on folks.
Don't lessen the power that casters have, but make sure that their high ranged power is balanced by relatively big weakness close-range.

2) This is why I never play MMOs. I go through phases of playing games for hours on end, to not playing them at all for months. I don't like the idea of paying monthly charges for a game I might only play for a couple of days out of the month.
I really am not sure of any solution to this problem - I would even say that the MMO system is set up to play on that very money 'problem,' to keep people hooked and coming back for more, willing to pay a monthly charge and as such, as you pointed out, spending copious time in-game so as not to feel cheated out of their money.


-Note: It is 5:06AM. I apologise for this hugely long post, but my mind tends to pour out when it's this late.

 

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

So wait. Maybe I'm not getting this here. You're against magic in a fantasy game....because it's unChristian.....but in the same fantasy game...you prefer to use brute force to hack your enemies asunder...and that's perfectly Christian? It's a game, dude. If using magic in a videogame is sinful, then so is chopping your enemies to bits.

The occultic nature of a lot of the magic bothers me. I do draw a distinction between fantasy magic, and occultic based magic.

 

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

Actually, that has been exactly my experience in all the MMORPGs I've played. At a distance, casters rule, up close, it's the melees. That's why casters use the "kiting" method when hunting and melees use the "get in its face and beat it till it quits moving" method.

If you are so opposed to the use of "magic" in fantasy games, I'd suggest you just quit playing them and move on to something else. If you remove the "magic" it will cease to be a fantasy game. Maybe you should play Anarchy Online. The "magic" has been changed to nano-technology so you wouldn't be doing anything demonic by playing a "caster" type class on there.

Thanks for the info on Anarchy Online. I would love to see an online RPG based on say Megaman Battle Network, or Mario and Luigi.

 

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

Dang, I'm out of the loop. I was an avid (if not largely successful) Puzzle Pirate for a year or more, but stopped playing altogether late last year. Most people when asked about the doubloons would just say 'I dunno, it's something some people do sometime.'
Heh.

Anyway, as for the OP:
I don't play MMORPGs [besides Puzzle Pirates], though I did spend some time on Flyff and Maplestory recently, and gave the free Anarchy Online bits a try.
It's my experience in gaming in general (and in MMOs by proxy, a couple of my friends being hardcore WoW players) that caster types actually aren't all that powerful, usually taking back-up roles.
Generally, if I play a game - be it MMO or single-player/hotseat - I go tank or rogue-type. Generally, if I try playing as a caster-type, I die all the time because I try charging and fighting - yet charging and fighting always works just fine against caster types because they tend to be weak, ill-protected, et cetera in their lower levels.

I have to echo some previous comments - I can understand being against magic in games, I was for many years when I was a Christian.
But, I was never at all against violence in video games and that is what made me realise that I was running a double standard.
Christianity has a violent history - the Old Testament is full of conquest and violent bloodshed - but, when the violence is acted out in the Bible (a couple of times in the New Testament [the overturning of money-changers' tables, for instance] and numerous times in the Old Testament) it is done by the Will of God or by a God granted Righteousness.
Because of this, the murder or violent deeds are not 'bad' because they are done for or by God.
But, deeds of 'magic' were preformed in the Bible under the same guise - the miracles before the Egyptians were replicated (to some degree) by the sorcerers. However, it was justified - it was a miracle, not a work of magic, because it was from God.

So, while one might be able to say 'I'm using violence in video games to kill bad guys, so it's okay, because it's righteous and just,' then one could also say 'I'm using magic in video games to kill bad guys, so it's okay, because it's righteous and just.'
Neither are from God, both could be considered sinful.

Thusly, if one of the problems with MMOs is that the game is geared to heavily toward tactical magic use, I would do some evaluation of the subject a bit more.

As for the two posed problems,
1) Balance, but do not lessen the damage. A properly balanced game will have physically weak but magically powerful casters.
RPG type games are almost always based on the old rock paper scissors, fire water leaf, so on and so forth balance. Even if the themes of the game do not point it out (like they do in games such as Vantage Master and Pocket Monsters), the idea is still there - a balance between strengths and weaknesses for each character class so that a person skilled using the different tactics in the game will have an equal chance at whooping up on folks.
Don't lessen the power that casters have, but make sure that their high ranged power is balanced by relatively big weakness close-range.

2) This is why I never play MMOs. I go through phases of playing games for hours on end, to not playing them at all for months. I don't like the idea of paying monthly charges for a game I might only play for a couple of days out of the month.
I really am not sure of any solution to this problem - I would even say that the MMO system is set up to play on that very money 'problem,' to keep people hooked and coming back for more, willing to pay a monthly charge and as such, as you pointed out, spending copious time in-game so as not to feel cheated out of their money.


-Note: It is 5:06AM. I apologise for this hugely long post, but my mind tends to pour out when it's this late.

Good points, and a good read, thank you.

 

[willard3]

Good points, and a good read, thank you.

It's been a while since I've seen true occult-based magic in a game. Diablo II is an exception, but really only with the necromancer. Necromancy does bother me some; it's just that zombies and skeletons should be on the opposite side.

Pentagrams really don't appear in that many games. Again, Diablo pops up, but your character never uses them.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I think a good idea might be to increase the shelf price for these games, say $70 for an MMO. Then just have unlimited access.
Of course, no companies will do this, because they know tons of addicts will continue shelling out monthly fees to get their fix.

 

[Helo]

Problem 1: Better balance, and have magic do less damage. Also allow fighters to actually crush mages if they get in close.

Thats actually not been a problem for most people

The problem with MMORPGS is variety, take WOW for an example. There are a couple basic ways a quest is constructed and it never deviates from that setup, it gets old after a while.

Annother problem is MMORPG worlds are big, way too freaking big and it takes forever to get from point A to B, providing you can even FIND B. That is one cool thing about MMORPGS is the world IS so big but sometimes its just so big that it feels like it takes forever to get anywhere.

Getting stuck in the middle of nowhere. If you have to suddenly log off, some games require you to do it in certain areas of the games. Or they dont require it, but you can get killed (EVE) if you dont log off in a certain area.

 

[FireLight09]

Thanks for the info on Anarchy Online. I would love to see an online RPG based on say Megaman Battle Network, or Mario and Luigi.

Heh, I've been wanting a MMBN MMO for so long it's not even funny.

But, yeah. One of the main things I disliked about magic in MMO's is because of the darkness and occult stuff usually associated with it. I have played as mages in MMO's, and personally I love the class because of the long-range and elemental capabilities, but a lot of the stuff I tend to see related to magicians in a lot of MMO's is really dark in a sense.

If they had the magic, they had the powers, but not in the same sense that occult magic and stuff works, I'd love it.

And, I agree, there needs to be much more of a balance between magic and non-magic users. There tends to be a pretty good balance in Ragnarok Online, the MMO I usually play now, but even then, namely at the beginning, mages and acolytes are a little overpowered compared to the rest.

 

[ozanaki tori]

Honestly, as a pagan, I can say for sure that the magic and 'occult' in video games has no real relativity to the magic and occult in the real world.

How is murder in a game better than a fictional occult in a game?

 

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

It's been a while since I've seen true occult-based magic in a game. Diablo II is an exception, but really only with the necromancer. Necromancy does bother me some; it's just that zombies and skeletons should be on the opposite side.

Pentagrams really don't appear in that many games. Again, Diablo pops up, but your character never uses them.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I think a good idea might be to increase the shelf price for these games, say $70 for an MMO. Then just have unlimited access.
Of course, no companies will do this, because they know tons of addicts will continue shelling out monthly fees to get their fix.

I like that idea for unlimited access. They may have to do it for say a year at a time (at first), but that is an excellent idea.

 

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

Heh, I've been wanting a MMBN MMO for so long it's not even funny.

But, yeah. One of the main things I disliked about magic in MMO's is because of the darkness and occult stuff usually associated with it. I have played as mages in MMO's, and personally I love the class because of the long-range and elemental capabilities, but a lot of the stuff I tend to see related to magicians in a lot of MMO's is really dark in a sense.

If they had the magic, they had the powers, but not in the same sense that occult magic and stuff works, I'd love it.

And, I agree, there needs to be much more of a balance between magic and non-magic users. There tends to be a pretty good balance in Ragnarok Online, the MMO I usually play now, but even then, namely at the beginning, mages and acolytes are a little overpowered compared to the rest.

Thanks

 

[littlechris]

I am a Christian, but I have no problem with magic on MMO's. I feel the key to playing any game is to use discernment and remember that you are only a person playing a game and not everything in the game is going to line up with Christian beliefs.​

I think there are basically 2 problems with MMO's: they require a lot of playing time, and some players can be really immature. Often times MMO's reward players for putting a lot of time into the game rather than for being a skilled player. This can often make the games addicting. Evertime I log on to an MMO, I see at least 1 person being immature and talking about inappropriate topics, harassing other players, or scamming ppl.

I do not recommend staying away from online RPGs because they can be fun. When I play online games, I always aim to be a nice, and helpful to other players and never take part in any conversation that I feel is innapropriate. Also, I find that it is often a good idea to take a break from online games occasionally and do other stuff I enjoy..​

 

[FamilyFriendlyGaming]

I am a Christian, but I have no problem with magic on MMO's. I feel the key to playing any game is to use discernment and remember that you are only a person playing a game and not everything in the game is going to line up with Christian beliefs.​

I think there are basically 2 problems with MMO's: they require a lot of playing time, and some players can be really immature. Often times MMO's reward players for putting a lot of time into the game rather than for being a skilled player. This can often make the games addicting. Evertime I log on to an MMO, I see at least 1 person being immature and talking about inappropriate topics, harassing other players, or scamming ppl.

I do not recommend staying away from online RPGs because they can be fun. When I play online games, I always aim to be a nice, and helpful to other players and never take part in any conversation that I feel is innapropriate. Also, I find that it is often a good idea to take a break from online games occasionally and do other stuff I enjoy..​

When Christ taught if you look at a woman lustfully you are guilty of that sin; how do you think that applies to pretending to do things in a video game that grieve God?

 

[peanutbutter12]

Well I guess there shouldn't be any murder in games either... and forget about fighting since God tells us to love and not fight... so basically the only game available to play is pretty much The Sims Online... oh, but wait, it has sex in it... can't play that one either.

CJ

 

[SteelDisciple]

I would have to say that the biggest problem I have found with every MMORPG I have played is - magic is way too powerful.

As a Christian I am not big on usage of magic in a game I play. Given the choice, I will avoid the magic, and use a character who relies on their brawn. Herein lies the problem - every MMORPG I have played gives the advantage to the magic user.

I got so disgusted with this promotion of magic that I turned off playing any games online for a great many years. I have since played games like Animal Crossing, and Mario Kart online.

Another rather large problem with the MMORPG's in my book is the pricing plans. You buy a month, or two, and then cram as much play time into that month. This really is not a lot of fun, since the entire concept has the player obsessing over the game. Sure you can play a little here and there, but then you feel like you wasted your money.

Solutions:
Problem 1: Better balance, and have magic do less damage. Also allow fighters to actually crush mages if they get in close.

Problem 2: Better pricing is one idea. The second idea I have is a complete overhaul of how the game is played. Think about this: you buy the game, and play it on your PC. The player is then allowed to purchase online where different areas can be accessed, and other players can be met up with. This way online is additional to the existing game. If a player wants to work on skills offline, they can. That takes away the feeling of wasting money, and obsession. The online communities could be as robust as they are now, and it would not be turning as many people away.

Anyways I am curious to what some of ya'll think.

It's a game. A fantasy game. You're complaining about the use of magic in the game (which isn't remotely like REAL LIFE) and don't complain about the goblins or orcs you cut up with a sword? You can't pick ONE part of a fantasy to say is wrong and say the rest of the fantasy isn't. It's called imagination.

I think magic users SHOULD be more powerful...offense-wise. A fireball is gonna do a heck of a lot more damage than a sword. I have a magic user in WoW (an offensive priest and a mage) and yes...they dish out more power...as they should. But they are also weaker in the defensive. So it completely balanaces out. Mages rely on Warriors to hold aggro away from them.

The fundamental problem with MMO's is that they stick to the same formulas..."kill X creature for X item" but more and more MMO's coming out are finally getting away from that.

 

[SteelDisciple]

When Christ taught if you look at a woman lustfully you are guilty of that sin; how do you think that applies to pretending to do things in a video game that grieve God?

The two aren't anything a like. Playing a magic user isn't gonna drive me to use magic. Infact...I used to know quite a few wiccans...if you compared the two...the wiccan would just laugh at your ignorance thinking the two are remotely alike. Why? Because it's total fantasy.

I'm fighting in a world where there are fantastic enviroments, strange creatures and magic.

Again...I guess some people are just not born with an imagination and think that EVERYTHING must stay within the real-life realm. heh

 

[SteelDisciple]

Heh, I've been wanting a MMBN MMO for so long it's not even funny.

But, yeah. One of the main things I disliked about magic in MMO's is because of the darkness and occult stuff usually associated with it. I have played as mages in MMO's, and personally I love the class because of the long-range and elemental capabilities, but a lot of the stuff I tend to see related to magicians in a lot of MMO's is really dark in a sense.

If they had the magic, they had the powers, but not in the same sense that occult magic and stuff works, I'd love it.

And, I agree, there needs to be much more of a balance between magic and non-magic users. There tends to be a pretty good balance in Ragnarok Online, the MMO I usually play now, but even then, namely at the beginning, mages and acolytes are a little overpowered compared to the rest.

heh, you do realize that the Occult and fantasy magic are completely unrelated and NOTHING alike, right?heh