1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and defiance is like wickedness and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He has rejected you as king.
God speaks of Onus all throughout scripture. Another word for Onus is Culpability. God certainly decided who was culpable for the fall. When He walked this earth, He made it clear that Satan had been judged. He specified that Satan would strike His heal and He would crush His Head (Power) in Ga' Eden and according to Scripture, it will result in Satan's Termination of Existence at some point (Ezekiel 28 isn't shy on the matter). There are two most likely fates for those unknown souls that will be cast into Ga-Hinnom. Eternal Conscious Torment or Destruction of their very soul.
According to Paul who was Saul, the creature/creation was made subject to vanity not willingly. The judgment that proceeds from Satan who had the power of death, is reproved by the Truth of God's righteousness testified to by the Holy Spirit. A righteousness that came down and shined the Light of God's incorruptible Love into the darkness.
Hence Jesus taught: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Jesus is talking about hypocritical judgments that end in self-condemnation.
This is the scenario that I find myself in. I did things I now sincerely regret, which means I know something now that had I known then, I would not have done them in the first place. I was blind. Personally, I don't see onus as equal to culpable. Onus is like responsible for a failure. Culpable to me implies having known better and doing it anyway. Rebelliousness is like deliberately doing what you're told not to do.
I'm not blaming dung for being dung, and I'm not blaming the nose for the stink. I'm trying to parse the semantics here and since the devil = accuser/slanderer, he is pursuing vainglory when trying to find fault.
I therefore must note what Jesus said: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I don't see how Satan could have chosen to abide in the truth according to what Jesus said above;
"because there is no truth in him", and I take that to mean he did not comprehend the Light. Moreover, I notice that Jesus is revealing that whoever is fathered by the devil also has the same predisposition affecting the will as Satan does.
To be judged by what measure I use to judge others is just.
I'm Damned, according to your very words. By my usage of Scriptures interpretation of Judgment, that isn't Just Judgment. God is the 3 witnesses that will Judge, on the final day. Do you think God is going to play duck duck goose with the Eternal Souls of mankind? Does His Judgment have no foundation? Is Culpability not important, by God's own scriptural standards? He specifies that He alone is worthy to properly judge.
How are you damned by my words? I said: "
I see a scenario where it's no one's fault that they are who they are. I would therefore think the damned are those that find that unfair."
I believe God would want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. So, to me culpability is the guilt that remains when one can't comprehend the Christ whose blood was shed to purge our conscience and make us innocent and blameless. I therefore believe the Holy Spirit reproves the world of not believing in the Christ.
When the Lord searches our Hearts, is culpability not present? I'm almost reading that you don't see mankind as having autonomy of being. It's almost a way of saying... we are mere puppets on cosmic strings. I'm confused. Am I misreading you?
God will say if culpability is present or not. I imagine He also finds hearts that are selfless. Searching the intentions of the heart implies one's intentions towards others.
It's autonomy in the moral/immoral paradigm where I have problems.
My reasoning is this--->I don't see being manipulated by lies that lead to death as being autonomous. ---> I believe every temptation to sin must be based on a lie. ---> Therefore, I believe a free will is a will free from sin, ---> which I attribute to The Holy Spirit of Truth.
I acknowledge that the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin. So, when someone says it's our free will to sin and our free will to not sin, it's like they don't recognize we're subject to knowledge and ignorance, and that the image of God we hold to be true will define the terms.
So, God planted good seed, His enemy the devil planted tares. A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree bears bad fruit. A bad tree can't bear good fruit and a good tree can't bear bad fruit. I am of my Father and His works I must do, You are of your Father and his works you will do.
Compassion and Culpability are not divergent. Compassion is applied to show mercy, where culpability is found.
In your view, what is the difference between culpability and a guilty conscience? What about cowardice? I would think we are culpable/guilty of cowardice when we turn away from compassion. To me, courage is a virtue, virtue is a power, and cowardice is the absence of that virtue.
Grace is the Face that Love wears, when it encounters Brokenness.
How can something be Broken, if it is in it's "intended" state? There is a major difference from saying, "I know I'm broken, thank you for Loving me, God", than saying "I'm without responsibility for who I am, Love me.". IMO
When I read this a thought occurs. If Satan plants some tares amidst the wheat God planted, I'd say it's in its intended state according to the works of the devil, but not in its intended state according to God.
I agree with you, on this matter. However, there is one issue. God did assign Onus to Satan for this. Satan decided to go that route. What favors does it do to pretend that God Himself didn't rebuke and Judge Satan?
It doesn't do favors to anyone to practice pretense or guile.
Pride goeth before a fall.
As a creature, I can't say I didn't go the same route as Satan did to some extent. I can't say I would have fared better had I been in his shoes (if he wears shoes). He has become a byword of who not to be like. So, to understand how he fell is a source of humility.
This is the Man Made teaching of Limited atonement, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Irresistible Grace.
I don't think so. Note that 1 Corinthians 1:27 says,
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; <---That would qualify as a condition.
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: <--- And this would qualify as a condition.
But my point is that the Gospel is the power of salvation which made me believe from the heart, I never decided anything with my mind because it was a revelation. I've never met anyone who believed, who wasn't moved by the Holy Spirit to believe from the heart.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
And 1 Corinthians 1:21 says,
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God
by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
And why?
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Romans 1:16-17 also calls the Gospel a "revelation of God's righteousness revealed from faith to faith".
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For
therein is the righteousness of God REVEALED from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
It's impossible to miss. I saw this when you misquoted Romans 9, void of the 40 plus chapters of scripture in the Old Testament that are required to properly utilize it. This is saying that God randomly chose the saved and then randomly chose the damned.
This is most egregious in my opinion, because most people that believe in this doctrine insist on ECT. This directly means that God Purposefully created Beings for the sole purpose of Eternal Suffering to Glory Himself. God isn't only throwing this people into ECT, but they wouldn't have existed if God hadn't have created them. It's like saying that a person creates a person to Eternally Torture them. That doesn't align with the revealed Character of God, through Jesus Christ. This teaching is inadvertently saying that God is Love, but also likes to Torture people. It doesn't line up with God's revealed Character of Being, IMO.
I once had this debate where I mentioned that Jesus was crucified by wicked men, and others were saying he was crucified by God because God sent him to be crucified. My point is we shouldn't conflate God's foreknowledge of events with the events otherwise anyone can claim every horrific act was God's doing.
You seem to be uncomfortable acknowledging the Culpability of Satan that God Himself assigned, as a supposed act of being "Merciful". Yet, it appears that you have no issue with God bringing into Being Sentient Beings for the Sole purpose of eternal Torture? This is a sharp contrast. One, makes you appear benevolent, the other strips God of His benevolence. There's a severe doctrinal matter here. Am I misunderstanding you?
I believe culpability implies one knows what they are doing is wrong and they do it anyway. I have no problem saying Satan had a false image of god that was vain that led to his fall. I have no problem saying Pride goeth before a fall.
But I don't believe Satan knew he was deceived within himself. I think his vainglory grew because of his station and he got too big and fell. Pride is like a blindness. Moreover, I think we've all done the same thing in some degree, in our blindness. So, I find it self-condemning to imply he knew what he was doing.
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
childeye 2 said:
I'm not sure what you mean. It doesn't bother me to talk about how pondering a vain image of god is not pondering God. Actually, I love to talk about it because it glorifies God.
God's Heart is Grieved by the possibility of the Wicked never Repenting. He is severely upset and grieved by the matter from Genesis to Revelation. I don't see how discussing something that upsets God is glorying God.
Believe it or not, The Gospel itself is talking about the vain image of god that corrupts the soul.
Jesus is the True Image of God sent by God so as to believe in and be saved and healed from this vain image. His Holy Character is the quickening Spirit, right?
The Gospel is saying that there is a false image of god in the world, that sickens the soul and leads to wickedness and all sinfulness, and death. It is God's will to talk about it.
Israel was "Chosen". They were called THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD. These Chosen people had numbers within them that indeed had a MOST vain image of God that wouldn't allow them to recognize Him as He stood before their very faces, in PERSON. It's very dangerous to tamper with scriptures true meaning of the words "Election" and "Chosen". IMO
The way I understand it is Israel was chosen to bring forth the Messiah into the world.
Scripture reveals this matter. This isn't actually a personal study of scripture on this matter. This seams like a safe, non answer.
I'm just saying as a matter of honesty, The Holy Spirit rebukes Satan, not me.
