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aragorn

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In the first place, the words good and evil didn't have any moral content. There were just men and women, doing their thing, living in harmony with nature, having lots of sex, cause they didn't even know that it caused having children, and generally having a good time. You could call them unsophisticated. I prefer, innocence.

The problem with innocence is that it's easily corrupted.
It's kind of like the problem about evil is that God needs a Scapegoat. Goat, get it?

As none of them ever encountered any evil, they didn't have any words for it,

(at this point I should say, if you believe literally in Adam and Eve, seven day creation etc. I guess these posts are a little over your head, maybe go and read something that panders to your reality tunnel, but don't bother reading this.)

But you know, they made tools, and some spears were good spears, and some weren't and some soup was good soup, in the sense that it was nourishing and tasted good, and some wasn't. And so "good" and "bad" were around in the language long before they meant what they mean today. But that doesn't mean their recent concepts. They're still fantastically old, far older than the concepts of right and wrong.

The thing that all good things had in common was that they served their purpose. So it wasn't long before people started applying the words to men and women, saying a woman was a good woman, on account of her being beautiful, good in bed, having lots of children, being a good homemaker nouirisher and provider of love, and generally fulfilling all the male stereotypes about the essence of woman. Or a good man if he was good at bringing back the bacon, making tools, generally making himself useful to women, who were running the show. But again, saying someone was a bad man was essentially equivalent to saying they were useless, not to saying that they were evil in today's terms.

But as you'd expect, communities did judge their members, and called some good and some not good, and naturally those who were judged unfavourably, felt the criticism keenly. And sometimes as a result of this judgement, they became bitter, and worse their thoughts turned to anger against the communities that so judged them. And maybe they set off to start their own tribes, or maybe they just sat around and had their own descendants, and let the bitterness grow in their hearts. (The beginning perhaps of the nobility and the plebs?) An interesting thing happened though in humans. In these days of innocence, all could feel the life force, and all were connected to it, and all had their part to play, humans were not yet cut off and cursed. We could still move with the speed of other animals, could see the energy, receive visions from the force about where to hunt, and many other things, the like of which can be discovered by studying nomadic cultures such as the native americans, the aborigines, or the bushmen of the kalahari. But among those who started to experience bitterness and anger, their connection to the life force diminished, and diminished, because the life force is born of joy. And so maybe eventually they lost their connection to life, and became jealous of those who still had it, and plotted murder.

And at some point, someone who had lost his connection, committed an atrocity, and everyone knew in the first place that he was a bad or broken man, but now something had happened that was outside their experience, and required new concepts to frame the people's experience of it.

And so the pair concepts useful and useless for describing tools, became fused with the pair concepts, in-the-life-force and not-in-the-life-force,
and became the concepts "good" and "evil" and some wise woman, pronounced that evil was the most abhorrent thing that ever could exist, and was to be utterly rejected, and perhaps at this point those in-the-life-force
decided they would no longer tolerate those not-in, and drove them away.

But those who were driven away, perhaps went north, and lived in the cold, and grew strong and cunning, and eventually came back to have their revenge on their own who had driven them out, and they came back and used violence to set themselves up as conquerors, and enslaved the good, who did not flee, and called themselves the nobility and those they enslaved the commoners.

Where did at all start? With judgement.

Eventually, evil became all-pervasive, and it seemed as if man lived under a curse. Humanity though has been blessed with wise guides, and seers for as long as it has existed. (Humanity's problem is that it can use its geniuses if they serve the interest of the political elite, but it cannot even hear its spiritual geniuses. When they appear, the state wishes to silence or destroy them. Power and wealth are at stake. The spiritual genius who should be the word of god is destroyed by the evil of the world in which he finds himself, or shut up in a mental asylum if he truly tries to follow his calling)

After evil became all-pervasive, the wise guides had a long discussion on the telepathic grapevine. Some thought, something has gone wrong. Others thought, what nonsense, how can anything have gone wrong? This is a perfect creation created by a perfect being, how could it possibly have gone wrong. Given this divide of opinion among the very wise, it had to be admitted that there was a problem, though both sides saw strength in the other side's view. So some of them sat down and wrote a story to try to explain to humanity that something had gone wrong with the world, but also to point out that the problem was not external, but only in the hearts and heads of human beings, while the rest of them sat down to maintain, that this is and always will be a perfect creation. The only question is will humanity sit down and eat? Or will they be eaten? The story was called the Garden of Eden story, and I have just finished re-telling it for a new age.

As you may have noticed, the word "evil" is "live" backwards. Interestingly it could also be "life" backwards, since in celtic languages F is pronounced V. (welsh)
The devil lived backwards, which perhaps explains all its demonic behaviour, its just heading back to the garden. Me, I also want to get back to the garden, but I call it the kingdom of God, and I want to go forwards.
Do you understand why I sigh?
If you've got any thoughts on how we could get from here to there, please PM me. If you want to hear my account of "right" and "wrong" (a continuation of the story) please ask.
 
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Lillithspeak

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Christianity distinguishes between life and non-life, and so of course do ordinary people. Interestingly, though, materialist atheistic science does not and cannot distinguish between life and non-life. It also militantly denies the existence of the life force, and suppresses all scientific dissenters with an efficiency of which the inquisition would be proud.

I think I'll take issue with that statement. I don't know any scientists that deny the existence of a life force nor are they (and I asked around today just to be sure) being told by any other scientists to do so, wherever did you get this mis-information?
 
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Eudaimonist

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aragorn said:
Christianity distinguishes between life and non-life, and so of course do ordinary people. Interestingly, though, materialist atheistic science does not and cannot distinguish between life and non-life.

You're right. If materialist atheistic science was to study life, they'd call that field of study biology or something. ^_^

It also [...] suppresses all scientific dissenters with an efficiency of which the inquisition would be proud.

Yes, the torture chambers are filled with dissenters, and Creationist and New Age literature is banned by law.

(Don't confuse the refusal of scientists to accept non-scientific ideas as real science as some sort of "suppression". They simply have standards.)
 
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aragorn

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Well, it is true that materialist science cannot distinguish between life and non-life.

This is a technical point. Sure, materialist science does distinguish between life and non-life, and can even provide a basis for the distinction, say, life is defined as having DNA molecules. The point is that within the materialist worldview there is no essential difference between life and non-life, it's all just matter organised in various different ways.

If you don't believe that materialist science persecutes its heretics, I suggest you look into the activities of CSICOP, and investigate the case of William Reich.
 
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Eudaimonist

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aragorn said:
If you don't believe that materialist science persecutes its heretics, I suggest you look into the activities of CSICOP, and investigate the case of William Reich.

What has CSICOP done to persecute anyone? Debunking false claims is not persecution.
 
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aragorn

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CSICOP debunk both false and true claims, not on the basis of the experimental results, but on the basis of ideology.

I don't know where you're coming from Eudaimonist, or whether you're open to persuasion. I don't see that it really serves any purpose to give unsourced case histories to prove my point here, but, if you're interested, I'll PM you info about episodes in which CSICOP has falsely accused experimenters of cooking their data, been caught out, censored attempts to inform the general public of what they've done, and censored attempts to tell the general public that the journal is being censored.
 
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Eudaimonist

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aragorn said:
CSICOP debunk both false and true claims, not on the basis of the experimental results, but on the basis of ideology.

I don't know where you're coming from Eudaimonist, or whether you're open to persuasion. I don't see that it really serves any purpose to give unsourced case histories to prove my point here, but, if you're interested, I'll PM you info about episodes in which CSICOP has falsely accused experimenters of cooking their data, been caught out, censored attempts to inform the general public of what they've done, and censored attempts to tell the general public that the journal is being censored.

There's probably not much need, since CSICOP is not really a part of the scientific establishment. (You know, PhD scientists doing scientific research.) But PM me with your information anyway. It sounds interesting.
 
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aragorn

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It may be that when I talk of the scientific establishment denying the existence of an energy common to all living beings, I'm talking old news, and actually it's no longer like this, as Lilith speaks said. I'm not sure. However, when I was studying psychology, it certainly had a very strong determinist materialist slant, and certainly all the kudos and funding went to brain scientists rather than people who understood soul. It was even as if this particular strand of the psychology world was set up to exclude all real psychology from the field on the grounds that it was unscientific. I was reading this book published in 1986, called the new Inquisition full of examples of how this agency suppressed heretical viewpoints. It may no longer be true. I may in that area have been caught up in a slightly paranoid dogmatism. So much the better then, what I think is also backed up by science.
 
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aragorn

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All non-experimental psychology. e.g., folk psychology, that is the normal human way of describing our own minds. Psychoanalysis. In England by far the big part of funding for psychology goes to experimental psychologists involved in neuroscience. What's so difficult to understand about that?
 
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