What is distinct from Judaism?

[Rev20]

....Those are the scriptures, not my interpretation. All you got to do is read them.

This is some good reading, Doug. In the first passage, Joshua states that the land promise was fulfilled:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." -- Jos 21:43-45 KJV​

But Joshua's words of fulfillment also came with a warning:

"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you." -- Jos 23:15-16 KJV​

This passages warns Israel that if they DO NOT keep God's statutes and judgements, His land will "spue them out":

"Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; ) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you." -- Lev 18:26-28 KJV​

In this passage He warns them of the consequences (Babylonian Captivity) of not keeping His land sabbaths:

"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; . . . I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths." -- Lev 26:27, 32-34 KJV​

Here the Lord warns Israel to drive out all the inhabitants of the land, along with all their idols:

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." -- Num 33:51-53 KJV​

And this is what happens if Israel does not drive out the inhabitants:

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." -- Num 33:55-56 KJV​

The Lord had planned to destroy the nations that were driven out; and He said He would do the same to Israel if they were disobedient:

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." -- Deu 8:19-20 KJV​

The Lord did not simply drive Israel off His land, he rejoiced in doing so:

"And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." -- Deu 28:63 KJV​

All that may explain why the earthly land is rarely mentioned in the New Testament, and the so-called land covenant is not mentioned at all. Or, it may be explained by Christ inheriting all the promises God gave to Abraham:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." -- Gal 3:16-17 KJV​

If anyone wants to share in that inheritance, they have to ask Christ:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Gal 3:28-29 KJV​

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[Douggg]

doug,
I know your remark is the comfortable understanding of things in futurist circles, but I'm hear to rattle the cage: the real replacement theology problem is what is implied by Paul in Gal 3:17. In Judaism is the replacement of the promise by the law. And voiding. That is the problem that needs to be cleared up. As Paul explained it, the promised Gospel always was going to the nations, because Abraham was one of the nations before believing, wasn't he?

Inter, the Jews, Israel, are going to become Christians. They are not Christians now; that does not have to be proven. But they are going to become Christians.

 

[ebedmelech]

This is some good reading, Doug. In the first passage, Joshua states that the land promise was fulfilled:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." -- Jos 21:43-45 KJV​

But Joshua's words of fulfillment also came with a warning:

"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you." -- Jos 23:15-16 KJV​

This passages warns Israel that if they DO NOT keep God's statutes and judgements, His land will "spue them out":

"Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; ) That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you." -- Lev 18:26-28 KJV​

In this passage He warns them of the consequences (Babylonian Captivity) of not keeping His land sabbaths:

"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; . . . I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths." -- Lev 26:27, 32-34 KJV​

Here the Lord warns Israel to drive out all the inhabitants of the land, along with all their idols:

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." -- Num 33:51-53 KJV​

And this is what happens if Israel does not drive out the inhabitants:

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." -- Num 33:55-56 KJV​

The Lord had planned to destroy the nations that were driven out; and He said He would do the same to Israel if they were disobedient:

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." -- Deu 8:19-20 KJV​

The Lord did not simply drive Israel off His land, he rejoiced in doing so:

"And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." -- Deu 28:63 KJV​

All that may explain why the earthly land is rarely mentioned in the New Testament, and the so-called land covenant is not mentioned at all. Or, it may be explained by Christ inheriting all the promises God gave to Abraham:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." -- Gal 3:16-17 KJV​

If anyone wants to share in that inheritance, they have to ask Christ:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." -- Gal 3:28-29 KJV​

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It won't register Rev 20.

 

[Danoh]

It won't register because it is Revisionist all the way back to the very point the Apostle Paul made against it in Romans 9-11.

It won't register because it is ignorance in its own conceit against the wisdom of God - that all THAT - NEVER applied to the equally, literal, physical, election of Israel.

 

[Rev20]

Nonsense, Rev, we assert what we assert, we're not the one's continually piping "prove it," and only to claim others have not danced as we have asked.

I have never asked Christ to prove anything: He has already done that. I only ask those who ignore his Words, or add their words to His, to prove it.

It was God Who put the Earth, the Land, IN Earth AS IT IS in Heaven in their frame of reference.

Your kind have concluded otherwise and now hold to it because doing so fits your error.

Danoh, most of the time you make no sense. This is one of them.

But, I'm only going to have to repeat myself - your kind only pipes "prove" - your kind have no intention of laying aside your disbelief on this issue.

Why should I? I followed the recommendation of Christ, and went to Him, first:

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -- John 5:39-40 KJV​

And I look at the old testament from the perspective of the new covenant (the Gospel), not the other way around:

"And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." -- 2Cor 3:13-14 KJV​

With all due respect, Danoh, I do not believe you have even a marginal grasp of the scriptures.


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[Interplanner]

Paul never made that point, Danoh. He never equated two programs. There is no 2P2P in the Bible after all.

 

[Interplanner]

If its any indication of how reckless this can get, we have Doug in another thread insisting that validation of the old covenant TODAY is "Christian". This offends the Muslim, and he seems to accept that anything that offends the Muslim is correct. Ie, a Christian is 2P2P and that means defending everything in Judaism.

that is not my understanding of Paul's Gospel.

May I offer one more case of how misunderstood people are getting. The tagline for one of the popular prophecy teachers program (maybe your Pastor Jordan) was "have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?" of Gal 4:16. However, this is 180 off how Paul is operating. Paul is not validating Judaism. And I've told you how far off the truth Pastor Jordan was. But the guy uses that as his tagline, being proud of his enmity-making.

 

[ebedmelech]

It won't register because it is Revisionist all the way back to the very point the Apostle Paul made against it in Romans 9-11.

It won't register because it is ignorance in its own conceit against the wisdom of God - that all THAT - NEVER applied to the equally, literal, physical, election of Israel.

One word on this Danoh..."CLUELESS".

Nothing revised. The problem is "your teaching"...and it's militates against the New Covenant.

 

[Douggg]

If its any indication of how reckless this can get, we have Doug in another thread insisting that validation of the old covenant TODAY is "Christian". This offends the Muslim, and he seems to accept that anything that offends the Muslim is correct. Ie, a Christian is 2P2P and that means defending everything in Judaism.

Inter, setting aside the misrepresentation you have made of what I said, are you now saying that you and the muslims are on the same page, as far as denying God's promise in those 170 passages that the land of Israel belongs to the children of Israel, forever - that Islam is actually right?

The Ayatollah is a preterist?

.......I don't get it, Spanky.

 

[Interplanner]

That's not why they say that Doug; they haven't got a clue about the Gospel and they deny that one person's righteousness can be transferred to another.

You don't seem to understand the Hebrew term 'forever.' There are plenty of examples against what you're saying, you know. Both those that invalidate that it was forever, that it could be forever, and that other places said to be such and such 'forever' were not. It is for as long as those listening can practically concieve in this life.

Then there's Heb 11 which informs us as Christians not Muslims that it (the promise) was not about the land after all. Is that why the land never matters in Gal 3? Probably. It doesn't matter in itself anywhere in NT theology. The apostles would like to save Israel the turmoil of the DofJ, but that concern was short lived. 'The meek will inherit the land of Israel' was meant to contrast with the zealot way of defending it, which ruined it. Those in Israel who do not join the mission of the Gospel are extirpated/disinherited ('exolethreuthesetai'). Literally: you will make yourselves unfree or captive.

You've bought into 2P2P Doug and it has you thinking the land issue is right up there with the spiritual contest of Eph 6 or 2 Cor 10.

It was a validation of the old covenant (popular christian eschatology is full of it) and I don't know what the misrepresentation was; you didn't explain. You may have just realized what you got into.

I still am hoping one of you guys can explain, with emotional clarity, whether any of this modern Israel stuff is a source of joy for you, or anguish. Are you excited it is happening or warning them to get the hell out? If they procede to build a temple now and are enslaved/entrapped by a Judaistic AC, what is the excitement about?

The Christian mentality, based on the Gospel, does not pound people with fear about what is going to happen, but with the grace and love of Him who loved us and gave himself up for us, to provide us with indestructible righteousness on the day of Judgement. Judaic details or meanderings don't matter a bug's sneeze to us.

 

[Douggg]

That's not why they say that Doug; they haven't got a clue about the Gospel and they deny that one person's righteousness can be transferred to another.

No, what Judaism believe is that one person's sins can not be transferred to another. Taken away from that person and placed on another person.

Christians don't even believe that Jesus perfect righteousness was taken away from Him and given to us. His perfect righteousness is imputed , credited to us. He still has His perfect righteousness.

The Jews, Israel, are not Christians. They will become Christians during the great tribulation. God's promise that the land was given to the children of Israel, forever, has never been revoked. The gospel had nor has any impact on that promise.

There is only one plan of Salvation, and the Jews, Israel will be save according to that one plan - they become Christians.

 

[Interplanner]

I was referring to Islam, but as a missionary to Iran before the Revolution told me, Islam is like a Judaism that has taken one step backward every direction.

Christ cannot lose his own righteousness by imputing it; like Elijah's cistern of oil, it is always full. Imputing is the credit value of it, not the actual thing. It is how God covers our sins. We don't actually live christ's life, and our sins don't actually disappear; the debt, however, is a reconciled balance through imputation.

Funny how the NT doesn't validate the land promise and warns sharply of its loss (Acts 3, Hebrews!!!). There are no Judaic features to the future in NT passages on eschatology. God does not run a separate, skew promise system or Paul would surely have mentioned it in Gal 3, Acts 13, 26, Hebrews. What "on earth" are you referring to?

Your belief about a future salvation of the Jews doesn't help 99% of them down through history. So what is all the excitement? It also hinges on your belief that the (capitalized) Great Tribulation was something other than what Mt24A is saying. Did someone trademark that translation? Other valid translations are 'horrible ordeal' 'unthinkable turmoil' etc. Its the pathetic Jewish Revolt, and its horror is multiplied by its being unnecessary suffering. The nation was supposed to be busy in God's mission.

"I have other sheep not of this pen... They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." Jn 10. There is no 2P2P in the Bible. It was always meant to get to Jn 10, and has succeeded.

 

[Rev20]

The Jews, Israel, are not Christians. They will become Christians during the great tribulation. God's promise that the land was given to the children of Israel, forever, has never been revoked. The gospel had nor has any impact on that promise.

Doug, shortly after the children of Israel sinned in the wilderness, God planned to destroy all of Israel, except for Moses, and give all the promises to Moses and his seed. This is the passage:

"They [Israel] have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee [Moses] a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" -- Exo 32:8-11 KJV​

If Moses had not interceded on Israel's behalf, they would have been history, and we would have been talking about the Children of Moses.

Doug, if God had destroyed Israel, and given the promises to Moses and his seed, would that have revoked the so-called "land covenant?"


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[Interplanner]

Thank you for your excellent alertness and thinking, Rev20

 

[ebedmelech]

No, what Judaism believe is that one person's sins can not be transferred to another. Taken away from that person and placed on another person.

Christians don't even believe that Jesus perfect righteousness was taken away from Him and given to us. His perfect righteousness is imputed , credited to us. He still has His perfect righteousness.

The Jews, Israel, are not Christians. They will become Christians during the great tribulation. God's promise that the land was given to the children of Israel, forever, has never been revoked. The gospel had nor has any impact on that promise.

There is only one plan of Salvation, and the Jews, Israel will be save according to that one plan - they become Christians.

Rev20 pointed it out to you Doug!

You really miss that after Christ instituted the New Covenant that the Old Covenant promises are not ringing true to ethnic Israel.

You will NOT acknowledge the Israel of God and the transfer on earthly promises to heaven.

*The "Jerusalem above" in particular!

 

[Interplanner]

EbedM,
were you a bit tired?

the post quoted was by Doug. did you mean to reply to him or point out to Rev20?

what do you mean about the old covenant promises ringing true to ethnic Israel?

 

[Douggg]

Doug, shortly after the children of Israel sinned in the wilderness, God planned to destroy all of Israel, except for Moses, and give all the promises to Moses and his seed. This is the passage:

"They [Israel] have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee [Moses] a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" -- Exo 32:8-11 KJV​

If Moses had not interceded on Israel's behalf, they would have been history, and we would have been talking about the Children of Moses.

Doug, if God had destroyed Israel, and given the promises to Moses and his seed, would that have revoked the so-called "land covenant?"


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10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


The fact is that God did not destroy them because that would have negated the promises he had made regarding Abraham, Isaac, and Israel - which included that the land was to be the Children of Israel's forever.

 

[Rev20]

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

The fact is that God did not destroy them because that would have negated the promises he had made regarding Abraham, Isaac, and Israel - which included that the land was to be the Children of Israel's forever.

Not so, Doug. Moses was a descendant of Israel; and the promise to Abraham was not to seeds, as in many, but to one seed. God was going to make the great nation he promised to Abraham through his seed, Moses, until Moses interceded on behalf of the others. There would have been no change in the covenant, and no broken promises, if God had destroyed all but the family of Moses.

As it turned out, all the promises to Abraham went to a single seed, Jesus Christ (Gal 3:16-17,) and through Christ all nations are blessed. A careful reading of Gal 3:17-19 reveals that this was God's plan all along:

"And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." -- Gal 3:17-19 KJV​

Christ inherited all the promises, Doug, including the land. That is why He was able to promise this:

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." -- Matt 5:5 KJV​

Christ doesn't say "the meek of the children of Israel", but simply "the meek."

Physical descendancy from Abraham mattered only for the seed of the promise (Christ), for His servants, the prophets; and for the royal priesthood (Paul, John, Peter, James, Stephen, etc.,) which was the chosen generation of Israel that Peter wrote of.


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[shturt678s]

Looks good, subscribing,

Old Jack

 

[Rev20]

Looks good, subscribing,

Old Jack

Welcome, Old Jack. Your two cents is always a welcome complement to my cent and a half.


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