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What is "design" and how to detect it

ChetSinger

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Why can't the Sun be a product of natural processes just like weather, planetary orbits, and volcanoes?
Because I believe it's origin, and the origin of everything here, was supernatural. I'm distinguishing origins from current processes. That is, I believe the processes were originally designed and have since run themselves. Kind of like the watchmaker described by Newton and Descartes. Does God still intervene? Yes, we call such events "answered prayers", "miracles", etc.
 
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ChetSinger

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I'm not sure we're reading the same Bible. In the Bible I read, God is described as forming each person in the womb, as giving animals their food daily, as sending clouds and rain, as spreading the snow like wool and frost like ashes, and as making plants grow. As Psalm 104 puts it,
All of them wait for You
to give them their food at the right time.
they gather it;
when You open Your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.
When You hide Your face,
they are terrified;
when You take away their breath,
they die and return to the dust.
When You send Your breath,
they are created,
and You renew the face of the earth.
I think you bring up a good point: how involved is God with the everyday running of the natural world? There are creationists who go as far as quoting Colossians 1:17 to claim that Jesus holds every atom together.

Maybe they're right (how would I know?), but I don't go that far. My background is physics, specifically acoustics, and the predictability of my field makes the universe look more like a creation that was set in motion and let go to run.

But that's the inanimate universe.

I agree with your that Psalm 104 doesn't sound like that. I know he's involved daily in my life, and also in the lives of other people around me. And Jesus says in Mt 6 that God feeds the birds. It sounds like he's involved daily in the lives of every living thing.
 
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SkyWriting

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It's a basically question of levels of abstraction and emergence. If you studied physics you'll know about Ken Wilson (Nobel Prize 1982) of renormalization group fame, who showed that physics operates at a hierarchy of scales, each higher scale abstracted from the one below. Properties of a lower level can give rise to novel emergent properties at the higher level. For example, a water molecule isn't wet, wetness is a novel emergent property of the interactions of many water molecules. The same principle applies in fields of science - chemistry is based on physics, but can be studied without a detailed knowledge of the underlying physics by applying the emergent rules, biology is built on chemistry, but has its own behaviours & properties emergent from and abstracted from it. You don't need to understand the details of the layer below to do useful work at the higher level - so you can study ocean waves & turbulent flow without knowing the physics of individual water molecules.

Emergence means that the lower layer provides a facilitating substrate, a support for functionally unrelated patterns of activity; Conway's Game of Life is a good example - a static grid of binary (black/white, on/off, active/inactive, 'alive'/'dead') cells whose state is determined very simply by the immediately neighboring cells. The cells themselves aren't interesting, and the simple rules are the same for every cell, but depending on the initial pattern of cell states, interesting patterns of activity can occur when the rules are applied repeatedly over the grid. These patterns are not just interesting oddities, they can do stuff - for example one pattern can act as a Universal Turing Machine, capable, in principle, of computing anything computable; another pattern can self-replicate like a kind of primitive digital proto-life; yet another can emulate Game of Life itself:
However, as you may have noticed, the GOL self-replicator is huge, extremely improbable to appear by random generation (especially as there is no selection in GOL) , due to the very restricted degrees of freedom in the interaction of the system - 2 dimensions, binary cells, and trivially simple relational rules. So achieving the necessary complexity takes huge numbers of them. But the rules and interactions of physics have vastly more degrees of freedom, giving chemistry a much wider range and complexity of emergent behaviours, and so-on, so achieving the complexity of a self replicator requires fewer interacting elements at the level of chemistry, making it far less improbable to arise as a result of cumulative random processes (with selection).

It is possible to conceive of simple replicators that depend on particular properties of organic chemicals - e.g. a variety of similar chemicals like the nitrogenous bases of RNA, that, in the right environment, will polymerize into short chains where each will attract a complementary base that will bind to its neighbor and form a complementary chain. If the environment changes, the complementary chain might separate from its template and attract its own set of complementary bases to form a copy of the original chain, and so on. Current hypothetical models of abiogenesis are far more sophisticated than this, but it highlights the potential role of environmental variation affecting the patterns of interaction of the molecules.

But particular properties of chemicals don't lead to sexuality, it's an emergent property of biology under natural selection; chemistry is the underlying functional substrate that makes the patterns of activity of biological systems possible, and the patterns of activity of biological systems can lead to the emergence of sexuality. Quite different levels of abstraction.

Ultimately, it's the energy gradients in the system that enable or drive the interactions at each level. Systems tend towards equilibrium, maximising entropy by energy dissipation, and it may not be a coincidence that energy dissipation is proportional to the complexity of the dissipating activity.

Another factor in the generation of complexity of living systems is self-organisation and self-assembly. This isn't a directed effect, but like crystal growth, it's a function of simple structural interactions between atoms or molecules. Crystallising water can produce symmetrical geometric shapes; polar organic molecules in solution, e.g. phospholipids, can produce membranes as their hydrophilic ends are mutually attracted, as are their hydrophilic ends, and they clump together. Such lipid membranes can spontaneously curve into a spherical bubbles - vesicles or liposomes.

Thanks! You touched on the exact topic that I've been driving at for the last month or so.
What aspects of Chemistry or properties in Physics suggest that when scaled up, would result in
chemicals consuming other chemicals, growing is size, shedding waste byproducts, and reproducing
as a challenge to equilibrium and the temporary delay of chaos and entropy?

Where is that scaling up from?
 
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SkyWriting

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I think you bring up a good point: how involved is God with the everyday running of the natural world? There are creationists who go as far as quoting Colossians 1:17 to claim that Jesus holds every atom together.

Maybe they're right (how would I know?), but I don't go that far. My background is physics, specifically acoustics, and the predictability of my field makes the universe look more like a creation that was set in motion and let go to run.

But that's the inanimate universe.

I agree with your that Psalm 104 doesn't sound like that. I know he's involved daily in my life, and also in the lives of other people around me. And Jesus says in Mt 6 that God feeds the birds. It sounds like he's involved daily in the lives of every living thing.

If you are holding each electron in it's orbit, then you are involved in all those things.
Having said that, this created world is still not Heaven.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Nope. The Dover Trial thoroughly examined the claims of ID and found it was just the lastest disguise for YE creationism, which is no older than the 20th century.

If that's so why are we talking about a person born in 1743?

Because you've conflated "natural theology" with ID. Two entirely different religious doctrines.

William Paley (July 1743 – 25 May 1805) was an English clergyman, Christian apologist, philosopher, and utilitarian. He is best known for his natural theology exposition of the teleological argument for the existence of God in his work Natural Theology or Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, which made use of the watchmaker analogy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paley

Darwin admired Paley. His natural theology was completely consistent with evolutionary theory as Darwin proposed it.


Barbarian observes:
That's false too. When I was an undergraduate in the 1960s, scientists were already talking about the functions of non-coding DNA, long before creationists invented "intelligent design."

I don't doubt it, but that was the exception not the rule:

Not among geneticists, it seems. But I'd be open to your survey of the literature, showing otherwise.

Barbarian observes:
It probably wasn't a good idea for you to bring up "information", then. As you see, it isn't very good for "intelligent design."

"Yockey [7] and Wickens [5] develop the same distinction [as Orgel], explaining that “order” is a statistical concept referring to regularity such as might characterize a series of digits in a number, or the ions of an inorganic crystal. On the other hand, “organization” refers to physical systems and the specific set of spatio-temporal and functional relationships among their parts.

How does word salad apply here? As you see, the scientific theory of information works. And the others don't.

Yockey and Wicke ns note that informational macromolecules have a low degree of order but a high degree of specified complexity. In short, the redundant order of crystals cannot give rise to specified complexity of the kind or magnitude found in biological organization; attempts to relate the two have little future.

But nothing to back up a bald assertion? The usual. In fact, the physicist Erwin Schrödinger, using evolutionary theory, predicted accurately (in What Is Life?) that inheritance would be found in "aperiodic crystals." He was precisely right.

They eliminated any link between crystals (snowflakes) and life before Dembski, Behe or Meyer published anything.

Surprise. Rosalind Franklin used X-ray diffraction of DNA crystals to produce the data that Watson and Crick used to find the structure of DNA.

Barbarian observes:
His "point" is that natural objects are signs of God. But as you see, he had to use a human-made object to make the point, because natural objects don't show design.

More and more people are seeing that they do.

More and more people are seeing UFOs. But the fact remains.

The principle he identified is still relevent, why should the answer for the stone not serve for the watch?

Because the stone is a natural object, and the watch was designed by an intelligence agent.

The problem I have is when I see functional gears and rotary motors and tell myself, these are just illusions,

If you think the real world is an illusion, isn't that an important clue about ID?

I would have no way of knowing whether Stonehenge, the statues on Easter island, gobekli tepe, the rosetta stone, or even the stop sign at the end of my street aren't illusions of nature.

I don't know anyone who, if shown natural objects and designed artifacts, couldn't separate them out. Humans are very good at that. Which again, is why Paley had to use a watch, to assert design.

I find the idea aliens designed life easier to swallow

Hence the ID belief that the "designer" might be a "space alien." Once one abandons reason, anything is possible.

than billions of years of chemical evolution could produce a self replicating, self repairing molecule,

Comes down to evidence. The evidence says that it did.

or billions of years of natural selection acting on random variations could produce something like the flagellar motor found in some bacteria.

Simpler versions of the motor exist in nature, and they are perfectly functional, so that falls by counter-example, as well. Disbelief is not evidence.

He might have, if he was unaware of other biological stops of less-evolved nature in arthropods. But since simpler versions exist, it seems rather foolish to argue that they couldn't.

I'd love to see simpler versions of gears in an arthrods legs. Let's see that.

Simplest known version is the bumpy stridula of some orthopertans:
fig6.gif

Somewhat more sophisticated gears:
6402041.jpg


more "toothy" gears exist:
1882_Descent_F955_fig14.jpg

The basic idea is repetitive "teeth" in which two parts of the exoskeleton interdigitate and move against each other. So, this is a pretty good example of exaption, a feature evolved for one purpose, that's recruited for another.

There's simpler examples of this for locomotion as well; the furca of springtails has teeth that interdigitate and then release to allow jumping. So the argument boils down to "I just don't think it could evolve, even though there are simpler examples."
 
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Loudmouth

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Because I believe it's origin, and the origin of everything here, was supernatural.

Why can't you believe that the Sun came about through natural processes?

I'm distinguishing origins from current processes.

We see current processes producing stars throughout the universe.

That is, I believe the processes were originally designed and have since run themselves.

Actually, no you don't. You believe God had to intervene since the origin of the universe in order to produce the Sun. You don't believe that the processes we observe working throughout the universe to produce new stars were the processes that produced our Sun. The watch in this scenario is the universe itself, and it was started with the Big Bang.
 
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SkyWriting

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The basic idea is repetitive "teeth" in which two parts of the exoskeleton interdigitate and move against each other. So, this is a pretty good example of exaption, a feature evolved for one purpose, that's recruited for another.

So Grasshopper, your teeth and legs came from plants then?

Trichocereus_chilensis_var._borealis_9828_m.jpg


Or somewhere else?

stegosaurus-skeleton-2595533.jpg
4584141392_bd249cdf52.jpg
spiny-lizard.jpg
7285883-virus-illustration.jpg
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I, too, have been told that. But is it all that true? These are the issues raised in peer-reviewed literature:
There are plenty of uncertainties - we have very limited data, and it becomes scarcer the further back you go; the theory has been generated from the available data, and has been modified over time to remain consistent with the data. So far, no new data has been shown to be inconsistent with the underlying principle (selection acting on heritable variation), which could potentially falsify the theory.

There has been speculation for a long time about whether life could have arisen more than once, and whether there might be more than one root - especially when the Archaea were discovered to have radically different ribosomal RNA in the 1970s. It is now the consensus that they're different enough to constitute to a third Domain of life, alongside Bacteria and Eukaryotes, and it has been suggested that this split could have happened at the pre-cellular stage; but we don't have enough evidence to do more than speculate about that.

What isn't in doubt is that all available evidence indicates that eukaryotes have a common ancestor, which seems to be what gives some religious believers indigestion.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Where is that scaling up from?
I don't know what you mean by that. The way a system operates at one level can give rise to or facilitate patterns of behaviour that can be described by a different set of rules; so the laws of thermodynamics are abstractions of statistical mechanics, and the four rules of Conway's Game of Life can animate patterns that can compute or replicate, etc.
 
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Vaccine

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There are plenty of uncertainties - we have very limited data, and it becomes scarcer the further back you go; the theory has been generated from the available data, and has been modified over time to remain consistent with the data. So far, no new data has been shown to be inconsistent with the underlying principle (selection acting on heritable variation), which could potentially falsify the theory.

There has been speculation for a long time about whether life could have arisen more than once, and whether there might be more than one root - especially when the Archaea were discovered to have radically different ribosomal RNA in the 1970s. It is now the consensus that they're different enough to constitute to a third Domain of life, alongside Bacteria and Eukaryotes, and it has been suggested that this split could have happened at the pre-cellular stage; but we don't have enough evidence to do more than speculate about that.

What isn't in doubt is that all available evidence indicates that eukaryotes have a common ancestor, which seems to be what gives some religious believers indigestion.


I take it you are unfazed that these words appear in peer-reviewed science, not some religious document:

"A formal demonstration of the universal common ancestry hypothesis has not been achieved and is unlikely to be feasible in principle"
 
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Vaccine

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physical particles carry information. What you need to explain is how DNA is different.

It's the difference between analog and digital information. Read what I wrote again:
When referring to code, meaning, semantics or syntax these are not metaphors:
"Compelling evidence suggests that the DNA, in addition to the digital information of the linear genetic code (the semantics), encodes equally important continuous, or analog, information that specifies the structural dynamics and configuration (the syntax) of the polymer."
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00018-013-1394-1A

Also, the title of that article says it all:
"Integration of syntactic and semantic properties of the DNA code reveals chromosomes as thermodynamic machines converting energy into information"
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00018-013-1394-1

DNA code has the property of syntax (rules of grammar) and semantics (meaning). Intron and exons act as punctuation and codons act as words. That DNA is a language is not a metaphor, it is a 'property' of the DNA code.

All chain reactions depend on contingencies. The chain reaction in a nuclear bomb or reactor is contingent upon the distance between uranium atoms. The uranium atoms communicate in the same sense that cells communicate. The particles they produce carry physical information.

There's no point to split hairs over what a chain reaction is. The point is calling what happens in the cell 'merely chain chemical reactions' is a weak attempt to sweep any complexity or design under the rug. Like saying what happenes inside a computer is merely electricity.

"In physics, physical information refers generally to the information that is contained in a physical system. Its usage in quantum mechanics (i.e. quantum information) is important, for example in the concept of quantum entanglement to describe effectively direct or causal relationships between apparently distinct or spatially separated particles.

Information itself may be loosely defined as "that which can distinguish one thing from another".[citation needed] The information embodied by a thing can thus be said to be the identity of the particular thing itself, that is, all of its properties, all that makes it distinct from other (real or potential) things. It is a complete description of the thing, but in a sense that is divorced from any particular language."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_information


The difference between 'information' and 'complex specified information' was explained in posts #43, #74, #75, #95, and #153.
As Steven Meyer puts it-
"To avoid confusion and equivocation, I realized that it was necessary to distinguish:
"information content" from mere "information-carrying capacity"
"specified information" from mere "Shannon information", and
"specifie information" from mere "complexity"

Shannon's information theory tells us about the information carrying capacity of a sequence, not whether the sequence is meaningful or functional.

They calculated it takes 162 million years for a coordinated pair of mutations to occur and fix in humans, 27 times longer than humans have supposedly lived.


Each person is born with 50 mutations. It only takes one generation in one individual for two mutations to occur.


They were't talking about those type mutations, you're equivocating the general definition of mutation with mutagenesis. It was a study from Cornell university, I think they know the difference. They were trying to show Behe miscalculated but their calculations inadvertendly showed it would take 162 million for 2 functional mutations to appear and fix within humans. Which would be a neat trick since humans have supposedly only been around 6 million years. What that means is random mutations aren't the source of genetic change people like to think it is. It debunks the idea the small scale information produced by random mutations can be extrapolated to infer macro-evolution changes. The title was:

"Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and THE LIMITS TO DARWINIAN EVOLUTON".



Those same scientists will tell you that all animals share a common ancestor, including humans. Whether or not the ultimate root of the tree is clear, there is more than enough evidence for relationships that falsify special creation and creationism. You might as well make the claim that what we don't know about universal common ancestry makes DNA paternity tests impossible.

Unfazed by these words that appear in a peer-reviewed source?

"A formal demonstration of the universal common ancestry hypothesis has not been achieved and is unlikely to be feasible in principle"

It would be nice if you used real scientific sources instead of creationist sites devoted to propaganda.

Why don't consider "Science" a real scientific source?


Why don't you quote the Yockey and Wickens paper, and the data they presented to back their conclusions. You need to cite the primary source.

Considering how well you've been paying attention to the sources I've cited I'll let you search for TMLO, (Dallas, TX: Lewis and Stanley reprint), 1992, erratum insert, p. 130.
 
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crjmurray

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I take it you are unfazed that these words appear in peer-reviewed science, not some religious document:

"A formal demonstration of the universal common ancestry hypothesis has not been achieved and is unlikely to be feasible in principle"

Very next sentence

"Nevertheless, the evidence in support of this hypothesis provided by comparative genomics is overwhelming."

SOURCE
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2993666/
 
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Vaccine

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Because you've conflated "natural theology" with ID. Two entirely different religious doctrines.

You introduced Paley in this conversation in post #45, not me, then said of him in post #82 "...And therein lies the failure of ID". It's a double standard to include him in criticisms of ID then later exclude him when talking about how old ID is.


Not among geneticists, it seems. But I'd be open to your survey of the literature, showing otherwise.

That was the point of quoting Science, Vol. 300 (5623):1246-1247, May 23, 2003:
"Although catchy, the term 'junk DNA' for many years repelled mainstream researchers from studying noncoding DNA. Who, except a small number of genomic clochards, would like to dig through genomic garbage? However, in science as in normal life, there are some clochards who, at the risk of being ridiculed, explore unpopular territories. Because of them, the view of junk DNA, especially repetitive elements, began to change in the early 1990s. Now, more and more biologists regard repetitive elements as a genomic treasure." Not Junk After All," Science, Vol. 300(5623):1246-1247 (May 23, 2003).)


The basic idea is repetitive "teeth" in which two parts of the exoskeleton interdigitate and move against each other. So, this is a pretty good example of exaption, a feature evolved for one purpose, that's recruited for another.

There's simpler examples of this for locomotion as well; the furca of springtails has teeth that interdigitate and then release to allow jumping. So the argument boils down to "I just don't think it could evolve, even though there are simpler examples."


This is a just-so story with two problems: it invokes a black box and foresight. You've identified a possible starting point but apart from imaging it happen it doesn't show how teeth on a lower leg or wings morph into functional gears on the upper leg. A black box is invoked to hide all the majic. They've opened the box and know how it works so these just-so stories don't work anymore. To move the teeth on the lower leg into a functional position on the upper leg is a change in body plan. A developmental gene regulatory networks (dGRN) will have to be changed, however any mutations to a dGRN lead to "catastrophic loss of the body part or loss of viability altogether" (Evolutionary Bioscience as Regulatory Systems Biology, Davidson p.38). It would lose the leg or die because dGRN's don't tolerate change.
It would require foresight, not trial and error, to place the gears in a precise position as not cause a loss of fitness to the organism. Merely identifying a possible start and end doesn't work anymore in light of the knowledge they have today.
 
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Vaccine

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crjmurray

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So a formal demonstration of the universal common ancestry hypothesis has been achieved and is likely to be feasible in principle?

I was just pointing out that you were quotemining and dishonestly misrepresenting the views of the writers.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Because you've conflated "natural theology" with ID. Two entirely different religious doctrines.

You introduced Paley in this conversation in post #45, not me

It's in your sig. Just pointing out the error. ID copied from Paley, but failed to see that Paley expected nature to follow God's thoughts, including all natural processes.

Failing to show that geneticists saw non-coding DNA as being functionless, you repeated your assertion. When will we see your supporting data?

Barbarian explaining why transitional forms to the "gear" exist:
The basic idea is repetitive "teeth" in which two parts of the exoskeleton interdigitate and move against each other. So, this is a pretty good example of exaption, a feature evolved for one purpose, that's recruited for another.

There's simpler examples of this for locomotion as well; the furca of springtails has teeth that interdigitate and then release to allow jumping. So the argument boils down to "I just don't think it could evolve, even though there are simpler examples."


This is a just-so story

Nope. All well-documented. Hand-waving won't help you.

it invokes a black box and foresight.

It's called "mutation and natural selection."

You've identified a possible starting point

And a few examples of more advanced forms.

[quote[ but apart from imaging it happen it doesn't show how teeth on a lower leg or wings morph into functional gears on the upper leg.[/quote]

It just shows how "gears" form first as bumps, an then as increasingly good interdigitations. So now, it's established that such "gears" can form incrementally. You're left with "I don't believe it."

To move the teeth on the lower leg into a functional position on the upper leg is a change in body plan.

There are "teeth" on both parts in stridulatory organs. So that won't help you, either.

A developmental gene regulatory networks (dGRN) will have to be changed,

Show us your evidence for that assumption. As you see, there are living organisms that show this.

however any mutations to a dGRN lead to "catastrophic loss of the body part or loss of viability altogether" (Evolutionary Bioscience as Regulatory Systems Biology, Davidson p.38). It would lose the leg or die because dGRN's don't tolerate change.

Developmental gene regulatory network architecture across 500 million years of echinoderm evolution
Evolutionary change in morphological features must depend on architectural reorganization of developmental gene regulatory networks (GRNs), just as true conservation of morphological features must imply retention of ancestral developmental GRN features. Key elements of the provisional GRN for embryonic endomesoderm development in the sea urchin are here compared with those operating in embryos of a distantly related echinoderm, a starfish. These animals diverged from their common ancestor 520-480 million years ago. Their endomesodermal fate maps are similar, except that sea urchins generate a skeletogenic cell lineage that produces a prominent skeleton lacking entirely in starfish larvae. A relevant set of regulatory genes was isolated from the starfish Asterina miniata, their expression patterns determined, and effects on the other genes of perturbing the expression of each were demonstrated. A three-gene feedback loop that is a fundamental feature of the sea urchin GRN for endoderm specification is found in almost identical form in the starfish: a detailed element of GRN architecture has been retained since the Cambrian Period in both echinoderm lineages. The significance of this retention is highlighted by the observation of numerous specific differences in the GRN connections as well. A regulatory gene used to drive skeletogenesis in the sea urchin is used entirely differently in the starfish, where it responds to endomesodermal inputs that do not affect it in the sea urchin embryo. Evolutionary changes in the GRNs since divergence are limited sharply to certain cis-regulatory elements, whereas others have persisted unaltered.

Surprise.

It would require foresight, not trial and error, to place the gears in a precise position as not cause a loss of fitness to the organism.

Again, you've assumed what you proposed to demonstrate. Show us. Given what we've learned of genes, your claims are badly out of date.
 
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SkyWriting

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I don't know what you mean by that. The way a system operates at one level can give rise to or facilitate patterns of behaviour that can be described by a different set of rules; so the laws of thermodynamics are abstractions of statistical mechanics, and the four rules of Conway's Game of Life can animate patterns that can compute or replicate, etc.

Which computer suse them. The seven in your car?
 
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