• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single

Scratch,
Your response to Mking is sad to say the least...How is this conversation or even debate? He gave a statement worth looking into and rather than ask for his sources, you say: "So your saying Jesus taught pagan theology"...How do you even come to such? .,..Your next paragraph is even worse..."Did Jesus say it to make a point?"..."Is or was that point about the truth?"..."Why is this God inspired story in the Scripture?"..."Are you trying to say the Scripture isn't inspired by God?"...
You couldn't be more off-mark or egregious in your statements! Not trying to offend you but you should think more before you post such comments to another. You should try to keep the conversation flowing with the intent of edifying the topic or even edifying the other person.

Although there are several different topics going throughout this thread (as always) the topic your engaged in is the story of Lazarus and the Richman a parable? And if so what is the meaning? Just a reminder! I think all here believe that Christ taught the coming Kingdom of God and that all scripture is "God-breathed"...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single

To patience,
While we here are speaking of the "soul" others are also debating the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. I wonder if it would be beneficial to all if I even interjected a thought since it would concern where this topic really ends.

How happy would heaven be? Would heaven be truly happy if we could see our own kids suffering on this earth as they go through life? If we could see our own children deny God at any moment? If we could see our children burning up, screaming and writhing in pain, eternally? Do you really think that heaven would be a glorious happy place to spend, while you could stare at the frantically screaming torture of others? Lets all think about that for a moment!

That is the "heaven" many religionists teach! Most teach it because of the misunderstanding of Lazarus and the richman. Those who believe that the "saved" go instantly to heaven and those that are "lost" go instantly to eternal torment, use this parable as the basis for this teaching. Would heaven be truly happy?
 
Upvote 0
Sep 27, 2011
150
4
✟22,803.00
Faith
Christian
Interesting that anyone could even not understand death. NTL there is more than one kind of death. The human can die twice. How is this? The scripture speaks clearly about a sceond death.


DEEP auctually

After reading some of the post;
I would like to first say:
The second death is an eternal state reflected in those that are not alive in Spirit:
Thus even though some breath in the flesh; they are dead in Spirit becasue they dont have the life that sets them free from the second death: Yet if they die to sin; then they may recieve an eternal life that sets them apart from an eternal death:

Thus there seems to be four ways to reference death:

*To die as in being put in a grave;

*Being dead in Spirit; or not apart of that which can only give life: DEAD IN SPIRIT
In which we are all born into this death; we all fall short of the glory; ever man needs to be reborn in the righteousness of God: So men are dead in Spirit;
let the dead burry the dead: Two states of death:
And then we have a third* sort to speak:


*We have a death to sin;
Resisiting sin; killing the sinful nature; ALIVE IN SPIRIT

And then we have the second death poured upon those that are not found in life:

The LAKE OF FIRE

simple enough;
Living it is the calling
 
Upvote 0
F

from scratch

Guest
Excuse me, please. Why do I need to ask for his sources? Are we debating the validity of non Biblical sources or are we debating from the Bible. This isn't a secular forum last time I checked. Why should I go looking for his information?

It has been promoted that this is from some other source than God or the Scripture as in a common pagan tradition or source. So is it from God or some other source? Just what could or would that other source be? Now we have God (Jesus) using it. Is God the Father promoting some untruth through His only begotten Son Jesus Who is God also. Why would I a Christian go to a pagan source to promote my idea about God? Is this grasping at straws to promote a lie? I really don't understand how one could be more brasen. Look I can't question the relationship of any one here about their relationship with God. But I do invite everyone to examine the fruit. I certianly don't understand your coming to the defense of what I object to here in this case. I'm not even going to ask you to explain it.

I'm vaguely familar with various types of Judaism. I don't get into them or other pagan rites as a rule. Note to the admin I didn't say Judaism is pagan. I have no desire to discuss the various Judaistic rites/tradition. That is simply beyond the scope of this thread. Religious thought outside of Judaism and Christianity is considered pagan. Judaism is outside of Christian thought as well. If one wishes to cite Judaism as a basis don't include pagan sources for support. This IMHO is railing against Christianity. Why would a Christian do such?

Please review this post for what was said - http://www.christianforums.com/t7608095-34/#post59120398

Now was Jesus teaching the truth or a lie? I ask this in the context of the pro law camp saying that Jesus, Paul and James taught the law as an obligation for the believer/Christian.
 
Upvote 0
F

from scratch

Guest
Threads do take some strange turns. The subject of the rich man an Lazarus is on topic as it relates to eternal death the second death. This death isn't an ending such as the physical life of a person as some insist.
 
Upvote 0

listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Nice presentation on this otherwise boring very cool day. Nice game on the tube though.
 
Upvote 0
F

from scratch

Guest
Its not a discrediting of scripture, Jesus was using the Pharisees own teaching against them.

Show me elsewhere in scripture the dead going to Abraham's bosom.
Why exactly would that be necessary seing Who it was making the statement? Do you have a source showing it was a teaching from the Pharisees? I don't find such in the Scripture, so this must be from some other source as you admit above.

I also need to ask if God (Jesus) needs to use something generated from man for support? That seems to me what you're saying. The pharisees didn't present or bring up the point/argument.
 
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single

Like I said, your comments are egregious...It does not matter from what "camp" as you like to say. For anyone to claim or even ask if Jesus taught from pagan practice or make a claim that another is really "trying to say" that what God wrote is a lie, is in fact a falsehood. MK did none of which you so carelessly projected your comments or questioning. They were of no use what so ever...You should try using more tact and sticking to the topic than randomly disambiguating the topic with comments or questions such as these.
 
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Lazarus and the rich man was a parable used by Christ to teach the lesson that those in Abraham's bosom would receive eternal life and those who did not listen to Moses and the prophets would eventually be thrown into the lake of fire. We should go line by line through this parable to get a complete understanding. But one thing it does not teach is that people go to heaven when they die!
 
Upvote 0

James 75

Newbie
Nov 25, 2011
166
19
✟393.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
or eternal suffering.
 
Upvote 0
F

from scratch

Guest

Is this promoting the source of the stroy from God or religious/pagan thought not found in the Scripture? You decide.

What is the source MK suggests Jesus got His material from? I don't find any indication in Scripture that is came from the Scripture. Do you? What did MK suggest the source might have been? How is this egregious as you state? How is asking anything a falsehood?

So very sorry you don't like my questions. They will never cease as that is my God given nature and has been my habit for 61 years. Thank you.
 
Upvote 0
F

from scratch

Guest
I would agree with you James on that...it does not teach eternal suffering

and it is easy to prove that it was a parable!
What exactly does it teach? Is there some reference that the richman's torment ever ended in the presentation or else where specifically related to this richman. I'd be most interested.

Is a parable just a meaningless story to fill the time or used as filler material for the author?
 
Upvote 0

patience7

Regular Member
Oct 11, 2010
1,149
135
Louisiana
✟24,906.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I know and understand that all men received the sentence of death when Adam ate of the tree. I believe Adam started out whole, as in body, soul, and spirit, and therefore perfect. In order to believe God's word as stated : for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die - something had to die that day - Adam no longer being whole and perfect, he lost that unique relationship with God, the spiritual and of course, I could be wrong in what I believe! But hey something had to die that day not years later!

The "spirit of man" is connected with his body and soul, i.e. man's nature, that which gives man knowledge or intellect. All persons have spirit, psychologically, in this respect man is higher in nature than animals.

I agree that not all men have God's spirit. Man's spirit (i.e. nature, intellect, knowledge) is shaped by man's upbringing, environment etc. - that's why I said it is part of the body and soul and ends with death. Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything. . . All I know is that the spirit given by God goes back to God.

I understand all of the above and I don't think that I have said anything differently.
 
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single

He simply made an observation of the times based on history. He gave you his source as the Jewish encyclopedia. He was simply making several statements based on his reading and understanding. Do you not use a concordance, a lexicon, and other bible commentaries in your studies? So why does his have to be pagan? How do you even come to a conclusion that MK suggest that Jesus taught pagan theology? or your other comment from post 339 the MK is trying to say the Scripture isn't inspired by God?

See, those comments are egregious to the topic...they hold no merit! Does the bible support the idea that the Jewish leaders (pharisees) were in fact influenced by other sources than their original doctrine, the Pentateuch? Certainly!!!

Look at Christ statement in Matt 15:9 speaking in front of the pharisees "But in vain the worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Lazarus and the rich man also He spake in front of the pharisees Luke 16:14...Christ was using this parable to warn them of what would happen to them if they did not repent!

The Pharisee Jew understood exactly what Christ was saying to them. That they would be burned up like chaff. See Matt 3.7-12;Luke 3:3-14;Matt 13

In fact there were two major groups of jews... the Pharisee and the Sadducees...the pharisee did believe in the resurrection of the dead whereas the Sadducees did not...You can read of this in Acts 23..Paul, a pharisee was on trial for his belief in the resurrection from the dead...The Sadducees wanted to kill him. However, you can also read of the Pharisee and Sadducees from other historical sources as well. An historical source such as Josephus or even Encountering the New Testament does not mean it is pagan and does not mean it is right or wrong. It is just an historical source that we might get more light on the subject to understanding what was going on at a particular time or event.

Hope this helps...Y
 
Upvote 0

patience7

Regular Member
Oct 11, 2010
1,149
135
Louisiana
✟24,906.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

I don't believe nor have I ever believed that when a person dies they immediately go to heaven or hell.
 
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single

Thank you
 
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single
I don't believe nor have I ever believed that when a person dies they immediately go to heaven or hell.

Well, thank you, i guess i am confused a little on your position...so you believe in the resurrection from the dead when Christ returns?

Yo
 
Upvote 0