What is Church?

[Koey]

We hear it all the time. Catholics say they are the Church. Orthodox say, no we are the Church. A whole sling of Protestant churches claim the same thing. It's dog eat dog, one upmanship of doctrines as far afield as Marianism, Sabbatarianism, infallibility, immersionism, apostolic successionism, having the "right" charismatic gift and a whole slew of other sometmes wacky, sometimes semi-reasonable di-stink-tives which make your or my church God's exclusive "franchise" on planet earth.

So, let's not go down those roads, nor even the meaning of the Greek word ekklesia. We've heard that a thousand times before.

So, what is Church? To me, it's the bitter division, the arguing on this board, the rudeness over who's got the goods, the Pharisaic man-made rules and intolerant control freaks who try to get you to do it their way. It's also the people that God loves, and the vehicle through which the most important message in the universe is carried.

What about you?

 

[texastig]

To me Church is the Body of Christ. We Christians are the Church, not some denomination.
I really like to tell denominations who believe that they are the only ones going to Heaven this.
"Did Jesus say this, For God so loved the denomination that He gave His only begotten Son"?
Then I tell them, "No, God gave His Son for all of us".
Thanks,
TT

 

[Brieuse]

We hear it all the time. Catholics say they are the Church. Orthodox say, no we are the Church. A whole sling of Protestant churches claim the same thing. It's dog eat dog, one upmanship of doctrines as far afield as Marianism, Sabbatarianism, infallibility, immersionism, apostolic successionism, having the "right" charismatic gift and a whole slew of other sometmes wacky, sometimes semi-reasonable di-stink-tives which make your or my church God's exclusive "franchise" on planet earth.

So, let's not go down those roads, nor even the meaning of the Greek word ekklesia. We've heard that a thousand times before.

So, what is Church? To me, it's the bitter division, the arguing on this board, the rudeness over who's got the goods, the Pharisaic man-made rules and intolerant control freaks who try to get you to do it their way. It's also the people that God loves, and the vehicle through which the most important message in the universe is carried.

What about you?

The Church is the Body of Christ, you and I. It is not bricks and mortar.

 

[dayhiker]

To me the church is everyone that I meet that love Jesus. So I find Christians everywhere I go.

 

[stumpjumper]

I always liked these quotes:

The one, holy, catholic, apostolic Church exists as a visible congregation, the visible congregation which is assembled by God's Word, comforted and exhorted by God's Word, and which serves God's Word in the world. That is what the polity of the Church has to express first of all. The Church does not exist as the invisible and thus amorphous sum of all "faithful" then alive.

It is not this because such a civitas platonica can never represent the acting and living congregation before it's living Lord. Moreover, the Church surely does not exist in the individuals who have gathered together of their own choice (according to a poor conception of democracy) or in the majority of such individuals.

It is not this because the call of Jesus Christ to all men to believe is what establishes believers among them as the Church, and not vie versa. And the Church also does not exist as an ordained representation of Jesus Christ to the congregation, or of the congregation to Jesus Christ, in so called "orders" regardless of whether one means the order of the Pastor or the order of the Presbyter. The Church exists even less in any sort of authority over the congregation in the office of a Bishop or in a hierarchy of such synods or in their executive committees. ....

It is not any of these because all such interpositions of human sovereignty and authority can only hinder and not further the free operation of God's Word and Spirit."

Karl Barth The Church

and this one: "The Church does not exist by pondering, studying, discussing, and preparing itself for this relationship (being a light) to the world. The Church exists in actually accomplishing this relationship in each time with the appropriate sense of security, realism, and neccesity." ~ Karl Barth

 

[Archivist]

This is from the ELCA website:

"Do Lutherans believe theirs is the only true religion?" This question was once put to the late Dr. Elson Ruff, editor of The Lutheran. His answer was, "Yes, but Lutherans don't believe they are the only ones who have it. There are true Christian believers in a vast majority of the churches, perhaps in all." The ELCA Confession of Faith says "This church confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and the Gospel as the power of God for the salvation of all who believe ..."

 

[Koey]

...Moreover, the Church surely does not exist in the individuals who have gathered together of their own choice (according to a poor conception of democracy) or in the majority of such individuals...

I like most of your quote, but this particular part seems to contradict the plain Scripture which says, where two or three are gathered together...

 

[Koey]

This is from the ELCA website:

"Do Lutherans believe theirs is the only true religion?" This question was once put to the late Dr. Elson Ruff, editor of The Lutheran. His answer was, "Yes, but Lutherans don't believe they are the only ones who have it. There are true Christian believers in a vast majority of the churches, perhaps in all." The ELCA Confession of Faith says "This church confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and the Gospel as the power of God for the salvation of all who believe ..."

I highly respect the ELCA. It was one of the first places I ever experienced grace, true grace.

 

[stumpjumper]

I like most of your quote, but this particular part seems to contradict the plain Scripture which says, where two or three are gathered together...

I think he's looking at it from a monergistic stance.

His complaint, in my opinion, is not with the Church not existing in individuals but the part about choice...

 

[Gukkor]

The Body of Christ, made up of many people.

 

[holo]

To me the church is everyone that I meet that love Jesus.

I think that's church to Jesus too

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The Church consists of all baptized believers, because they have been brought into the body of Christ.

However, being part of the Church doesn't mean you are the authority of the Church. That is why ordaination was done, even by the apostles, separately from baptism. There are no elections in Christianity, no choosing Churches- there is only one authority and that has been entrusted to one particular chair- at the Vatican.

 

[holo]

The Church consists of all baptized believers, because they have been brought into the body of Christ.

However, being part of the Church doesn't mean you are the authority of the Church. That is why ordaination was done, even by the apostles, separately from baptism. There are no elections in Christianity, no choosing Churches- there is only one authority and that has been entrusted to one particular chair- at the Vatican.

What is the difference, in your opinion, between a baptised and an unbaptised believer? I was baptised as a child, does that make a difference?

About authorities and elections in christianity, if I recall correctly, the NT records both democratic-like meetings and the casting of lots to make decisions.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

What is the difference, in your opinion, between a baptised and an unbaptised believer? I was baptised as a child, does that make a difference?

A baptized person has been reconciled with God and incorporated into the body of Christ. They have received sanctifying grace and have opened the door to receiving further graces.

About authorities and elections in christianity, if I recall correctly, the NT records both democratic-like meetings and the casting of lots to make decisions.

There were no democratic meetings. The leadership was within the apostles. The average disciple would not 'vote' on who got to lead. The apostles would appoint leaders of the Church and in cases like Timothy, appoint men to appoint other leaders of regional Churches.

The casting of the lots was a unique method used before Pentecost in appointing in the next apostle. Acts 1 records the apostles narrowing the selection down and with the absence of the Holy Spirit, relied on God using the dice to make the decision.

 

[Koey]

...There were no democratic meetings. The leadership was within the apostles. The average disciple would not 'vote' on who got to lead. The apostles would appoint leaders of the Church and in cases like Timothy, appoint men to appoint other leaders of regional Churches...

Actually that's not 100% correct. Voting means choosing, and the members did CHOOSE their first "deacons" (Acts 6), and the local Antioch "prophets and teachers" did CHOOSE Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:1). This is similar to a tiered structure much like a republican or Presbyterian form of polity today. The laity chose or voted for those who would deacon (serve) tables and the elders of a local church chose two major leaders. Interesting!

By the way, even the pope is chosen or voted for today by top leaders (cardinals), and most other churches do vote for their leadership. However, in many churches, unfortunately local pastors are "imposed" upon the people from on high, often with disastrous consequences. Even in the opposite extreme (congregationalist churches) lay members only vote on local leadership, and not denominational leadership, so this same tiered or republican-like voting system is preserved just about everywhere.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Actually that's not 100% correct. Voting means choosing, and the members did CHOOSE their first "deacons" (Acts 6), and the local Antioch "prophets and teachers" did CHOOSE Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:1). This is similar to a tiered structure much like a republican or Presbyterian form of polity today. The laity chose or voted for those who would deacon (serve) tables and the elders of a local church chose two major leaders. Interesting!

By the way, even the pope is chosen or voted for today by top leaders (cardinals), and most other churches do vote for their leadership. However, in many churches, unfortunately local pastors are "imposed" upon the people from on high, often with disastrous consequences. Even in the opposite extreme (congregationalist churches) lay members only vote on local leadership, and not denominational leadership, so this same tiered or republican-like voting system is preserved just about everywhere.

I didn't say no voting took place, I said the people did not vote for their leadership. The peopel didn't pick Paul and Barnabas to be their leaders, God did- God called them to their ordination.
The local congregations in Acts never voted for their deacons or any other leadership. Leadership does pick other leadership, and sometimes that was done by one person choosing, or many.
The reality is that people don't choose their leadership- the Holy Spirit does. Cardinals don't 'vote' so much as allow the Holy Spirit to work through them in gaining a new people.

Protestant churches are free to elect whomever the want, because they aren't churches, but groups of Christians- they're essentially clubs.

 

[Koey]

I didn't say no voting took place, I said the people did not vote for their leadership. The peopel didn't pick Paul and Barnabas to be their leaders, God did- God called them to their ordination.
The local congregations in Acts never voted for their deacons or any other leadership. Leadership does pick other leadership, and sometimes that was done by one person choosing, or many.
The reality is that people don't choose their leadership- the Holy Spirit does. Cardinals don't 'vote' so much as allow the Holy Spirit to work through them in gaining a new people.

Protestant churches are free to elect whomever the want, because they aren't churches, but groups of Christians- they're essentially clubs.

I think you missed the point entirely. Paul and Barnabas were certainly chosen by God, but the instrument which God used to make that choice were human beings. The word vote simply means choose, so it's merely a semantic issue. Who does the choosing? God or man? It think that it's really both, man inspired by God, man sometimes NOT inspired by God, and in the end, God allows both of those decisions, but in the end, if a person is not also God's choice it becomes obvious.

 

[Asinner]

We hear it all the time. Catholics say they are the Church. Orthodox say, no we are the Church. A whole sling of Protestant churches claim the same thing. It's dog eat dog, one upmanship of doctrines as far afield as Marianism, Sabbatarianism, infallibility, immersionism, apostolic successionism, having the "right" charismatic gift and a whole slew of other sometmes wacky, sometimes semi-reasonable di-stink-tives which make your or my church God's exclusive "franchise" on planet earth.

So, let's not go down those roads, nor even the meaning of the Greek word ekklesia. We've heard that a thousand times before.

So, what is Church? To me, it's the bitter division, the arguing on this board, the rudeness over who's got the goods, the Pharisaic man-made rules and intolerant control freaks who try to get you to do it their way. It's also the people that God loves, and the vehicle through which the most important message in the universe is carried.

What about you?

The Church is Christ, He being the Head, we, the Body.

Love,
Christina

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I think you missed the point entirely. Paul and Barnabas were certainly chosen by God, but the instrument which God used to make that choice were human beings. The word vote simply means choose, so it's merely a semantic issue. Who does the choosing? God or man? It think that it's really both, man inspired by God, man sometimes NOT inspired by God, and in the end, God allows both of those decisions, but in the end, if a person is not also God's choice it becomes obvious.

I think you missed the point- they were not made leaders by the people voting. Paul, for example, was made an apostle by God, while he was on the road persecuting Christians.

 

[HuntingMan]

So, what is Church?

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:20

'nuff said...

all the rest is cereal filler...