What is Christian Socialism?

[theIdi0t]

I hear the term Christian Socialism, or Biblical Socialism used quite often, and I'm wondering what is the difference between this form of Socialism and Secular Socialism?

Does Christian Socialism seek to replace Capitalistic systems, or just have the system incorporate some socialistic ideals? What exactly does the name mean, and how exactly does it work, and what are the aims?

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

Wikipedia has quite a decent introduction. Of course, you can spend hours looking around the site, but it's a pretty good introduction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

There's a book called Christianarchy. I can't remember who it's by, but that's a good take on things too.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

theIdi0t , did you read the article? What did you think? What do you think of the notion of Christian Socialists? I'm interested because I'm one

 

[JoeV]

I am also a Christian Socialist. Acts seems to be clear in saying that the believers had all things in common, and did not own anything themselves.

Acts 2:44-45:

Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

Acts 4:32-35:

Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

I posted the same thing in JoeV's poll thread but I'll restate it here just for the record.

I disagree with the previous statements that the Bible supports socialism. The ideas of socialism are great. Equality. Everyone helping everyone. It would be nice, I must confess, but the reality of it is far different than the philosophy behind it and the Bible cites examples of where people came together to offer their belongings to the church to glorify God and help spread the gospels, not build a socio-economic system or government.

Galatians 6:4-5 supports a way of living which is contrary to enforced socialism, "But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another, For every man shall bear his own burden."

The aforementioned passages from Acts cannot readily be applied as socialism because they were in no way setting up a government which would rule over people-they were communing together to form the church. This was voluntary in which people gave what they felt led to give and did so to help build God's kingdom-not a government institution of man. Another passage which could be construed as supporting socialism is Gal 6:2 which says "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ," but if you look at it in the context of Gal 6:1 "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted," it is clear that they are speaking of building and holding one another up willingly in the spirit of meekness-not building one another up as economic or social equals. It doesn't say give the man half of your things, it says more or less to put yourselves into the shoes of the unfortunate and do what you can do to help them in a humble fashion.

The Bible is a guide to how to live as a good person and I really don't think It endorses any socio-economic system over another, but the Word does teach us to help one another, not to force others to help, to willing lighten one another's burdens out of love, and that we should not HAVE to bear the burdens of those who are unwilling to carry their own load. Forcing the worker to carry the load of the beggar is in no way a Christian ideal and I'll eat my hat if it can be proven Biblical-so I have to say no to Socialism which does just that.

 

[mayfly]

I don't see anything particularly Christian about so-called Christian Socialism. What kinds of morality laws against sex outside of marriage does CS support? Or laws against easy divorce? Or laws against profanity and obscenity? I should expect some excellent Christian values IF CS were in fact Christian. I don't see any evidence for that!

CS is just failed liberalism warmed over with a veneer of religion. Socialism never works because it is out of touch with what the Bible reveals about human nature. How can that be Christian?

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

MayFly, Christian Socialism is an economic and government model. Of course everyone here agrees about sex outside marriage etc. But no way should any government tell people they can or can not perform certain types of sexual activity with another consenting adult!

Why are you so hung up on sexual morality? Hiding something?

 

[mayfly]

MayFly, Christian Socialism is an economic and government model. Of course everyone here agrees about sex outside marriage etc. But no way should any government tell people they can or can not perform certain types of sexual activity with another consenting adult!

Why are you so hung up on sexual morality? Hiding something?

Does your so-called Christian economic and government model respect basic human rights? Does it allow for government to pass laws restraining sinful and self-destrctive sexual behavior?

If not, then there is something seriously flawed with it.

I suspect CS is just warmed-over, 18th century socialism with a veneer of religion and lacking in substance. Your posts indicate as much. No Bible-basis for it.

I urge my fellow believers in Christ who believe that man is basically sinful and gov't should restrain evil to reject any socialist schemes. Only Christ can make a perfect society and that will happen only in the millenium.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

No bible basis for it? There's only one person here that's quoted scripture... and he's a Christian Socialist!

Jesus' life and indeed the first chapters of Acts make it pretty clear that Christians are inherently meant to be socialists. Capitalists are those powers we fight against.

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

No bible basis for it? There's only one person here that's quoted scripture... and he's a Christian Socialist!

Jesus' life and indeed the first chapters of Acts make it pretty clear that Christians are inherently meant to be socialists. Capitalists are those powers we fight against.

glad to see that you skipped over my post. Try reading everything before you say who has and hasn't quoted scripture.

And to say that Christians fight against
-any- socio-economic system is a lie because Christians are told to submit to authority and respect the king regardless so that is 2 strikes in one post, Flufferoo.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

At no time are we told to 'submit to authority' or 'obey the king'. We are, infact, told to fight the powers and principalities of the world. Demonic powers like unfair trade rules, slave/sweat shops, slave labour, and a system where 1% of the population control 40% of the world's wealth, and where the richest 3 have more than the poorest 600,000,000.

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

At no time are we told to 'submit to authority' or 'obey the king'. We are, infact, told to fight the powers and principalities of the world. Demonic powers like unfair trade rules, slave/sweat shops, slave labour, and a system where 1% of the population control 40% of the world's wealth, and where the richest 3 have more than the poorest 600,000,000.

To that all I can respond is read your Bible and that I believe you misinterpreted Ephesians 6:12 if that is what you are referring to. This verse refers to spiritual warfare, not earthly. The rulers which are referred to are Demonic forces, yes, but they are the rulers of this world, they don't have to possess a dictator to do so or infiltrate a government. It is a fallen world given over to sin and Satan, why else would he be repeatedly referred to as "the god of this world," "the prince of the powers of the air," or "the prince of this world"? It is referring to our battle being against spirits, not people, and then goes about how to tell us to gear ourselves for battle with them. It never says that our battle is against unjust governments, it is referring to the spirit world's grip on this one.

1Pe 2:17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

If you look at the life of Paul in Acts he was always respectful and submitted to the established authority over him-regardless of if they were just or or had misused their power. Jesus tells Pilate that the only authority he has has been given to him from above.

2 Timothy 2:4 "No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier."

that says it right there-live in this world but don't be conformed by it because we have a better on on the way. If you're more focused on getting this or that done or saying this system is better than that you're focusing on iniquity, not the kingdom of God, and you're being tangled up in affairs of this world. So long as the government doesn't stop you from being a Christian, you should submit. It doesn't make a lot of sense, and none of us really like to, but that is what the Bible says.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

What? Those passages from Peter have little to do with obeying authorities now. The first one is pretty vague as to who it's refering to. The second is a message to slaves which, thankfully, Christians are helping to abolish by telling slaves NOT to obey their masters! The other passages are extremely odd and require a far better exegesis than 'this is what the Bible says'.

The only one I can see makes any sort of sense is the usual 'submit yourself' or 'obey the laws of the land'. Sadly, many of our laws are unethical and therefore must be broken. Christian itself is a revolution, of the heart, of the soul, which, to be genuine, mmust have a physical outpouring.

that says it right there-live in this world but don't be conformed by it because we have a better on on the way. If you're more focused on getting this or that done or saying this system is better than that you're focusing on iniquity, not the kingdom of God, and you're being tangled up in affairs of this world.

Jesus got tangled up in the world. He didn't cut himself off. He jumped headlong into politics and the task of rescuing and healing people like the orphans and the outcasts - the proletariat.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and none of us really like to, but that is what the Bible says.

It doens't make sense because you've interpreted it wrongly, and I'm not going to follow anything that doesn't make sense. Women in the UK broke the law to get the vote. Nelson Mandela killed people to free his people. I'm rather glad they did. Down with immoral authority, up with the Kingdom of God!

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

What? Those passages from Peter have little to do with obeying authorities now. The first one is pretty vague as to who it's refering to. The second is a message to slaves which, thankfully, Christians are helping to abolish by telling slaves NOT to obey their masters! The other passages are extremely odd and require a far better exegesis than 'this is what the Bible says'.

The only one I can see makes any sort of sense is the usual 'submit yourself' or 'obey the laws of the land'. Sadly, many of our laws are unethical and therefore must be broken. Christian itself is a revolution, of the heart, of the soul, which, to be genuine, mmust have a physical outpouring.



Jesus got tangled up in the world. He didn't cut himself off. He jumped headlong into politics and the task of rescuing and healing people like the orphans and the outcasts - the proletariat.



It doens't make sense because you've interpreted it wrongly, and I'm not going to follow anything that doesn't make sense. Women in the UK broke the law to get the vote. Nelson Mandela killed people to free his people. I'm rather glad they did. Down with immoral authority, up with the Kingdom of God!

then continue to rebel against all authority and pick and choose Bible verses to give your agenda a Christian edge. Not my place to judge you.

Peter was referring to servants, not slaves-there is a difference.
What you said about it not applying to current times pretty much is a valid argument against everything in the Bible-if you're an atheist. The entire Bible is useful for our edification and we don't get the luxury of picking and choosing which parts we like and which parts we don't. Well, maybe you do, but the Bible tells me I don't.

And to be honest, I'm not responsible for what sense you can or can't make out of the Bible so if you can't make sense out of a passage, pity, and if you think you can toss it off because it says KING instead of PRESIDENT or your BOSS then that is ignorance because although the Bible doesn't tell us not to take a stand against what is clearly wrong, it tells us not to do so with a rebellious spirit, hence HONOR THE KING.

Jesus got tangled up in the world.

Jesus came to show us how to get to heaven and how to live on earth, not how to build government or even to heal people. Healing people, casting out demons, and feeding crowds of fasting followers are not why He came, it was to give us a new, better covenant with God. If Jesus and Paul both preached not to be conformed by the world and to not get entangled in earthly affairs, but you're saying they did-I'd love to hear you call them a hypocrite.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

Peter was referring to servants, not slaves-there is a difference.What you said about it not applying to current times pretty much is a valid argument against everything in the Bible-if you're an atheist. The entire Bible is useful for our edification and we don't get the luxury of picking and choosing which parts we like and which parts we don't. Well, maybe you do, but the Bible tells me I don't.

I'm not picking and choosing at all. My understanding of the Bible doesn't make it an ultimate source of wisdom, and certainly doens't elivate it to a textbook for living. If anything, it's Evangelicals who sadly pick and choose and then accuse others of doing the same. My bible says clearly - 'slaves obey your masters'. But I hope that all Christians are telling slaves not to obey their masters!

And to be honest, I'm not responsible for what sense you can or can't make out of the Bible so if you can't make sense out of a passage, pity, and if you think you can toss it off because it says KING instead of PRESIDENT or your BOSS then that is ignorance because although the Bible doesn't tell us not to take a stand against what is clearly wrong, it tells us not to do so with a rebellious spirit, hence HONOR THE KING.

And that couldn't be taking about Jesus? Or about the specific King that ruled the people that Peter was writing to? St Paul told Christians that the fight is against powers and principalities. Thses are pretty evident in the world: starvation, HIV, unfair trade rules, class systems, slavery, exploitation. The Kingdom of God has no place for these things, and therefore it is our job to oppose them. The Kingdom of God is here and now and it's brekaing into the world. We all pray it every week in church - Your Kingdom Come, Your Will Be Done - afterall. It's about social justice. Ultimately, capitalism isn't about social justice, but about rewarding greed. I don't believe in Adam Smith's principle of 'all trade is fair trade'. You can't ever buy water fairly, for instance, unless you own the company you're buying it from!

Jesus came to show us how to get to heaven and how to live on earth, not how to build government or even to heal people. Healing people, casting out demons, and feeding crowds of fasting followers are not why He came, it was to give us a new, better covenant with God. If Jesus and Paul both preached not to be conformed by the world and to not get entangled in earthly affairs, but you're saying they did-I'd love to hear you call them a hypocrite.

Jesus was pretty clear that we have to get involved. 'Go forth and make disciples'. Not 'stay on the sidelines and don't worry abotu the world.' Over half the bible is abotu social justice and the correct use of money, and Jesus certainly knew that and acted it out. I don't believe Jesus' mission was to show us the way to 'heaven'. That's not in the bible. Instead, the metanarrative is about God restoring his creation to himself, by dealing with the consequences of sin once and for all on the cross. The restoration involved healing and feeding and liberating, all of which Jesus did as an example that we should follow. We should not just follow him spiritually, but physically also. Jesus shared his bread, we should share our bread. Jesus told us to humilitate and subversively attack our oppressors - we should humilitate and subversively attack our oppressors. Jesus threw the corrupt capitalists out of his temple, we should throw the corrupt capitalists out of our temples.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

Guys..and ladies..
Separation of church and state..
COME ON EVERYONE lol
Let's use our logic and reasons

vbmenu_register("postmenu_36851059", true); vbmenu_register("postmenu_36851059", true); Obviously, FluffyRabbitHunter has his logic and reason. I love it!
Thanks~
vbmenu_register("postmenu

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

Guys..and ladies..
Separation of church and state..
COME ON EVERYONE lol
Let's use our logic and reasons

vbmenu_register("postmenu_36851059", true); vbmenu_register("postmenu_36851059", true); Obviously, FluffyRabbitHunter has his logic and reason. I love it!
Thanks~
vbmenu_register("postmenu

logic and reason are but the first of the dangerous ideologies of the awful capitalist elite which fall to the salvation theory of socialist policy.

...the church itself is probably somewhere on top of the list too. There is no church, there is no God, there is only the MOTHERLAND!!!!!!!!!!

 

[YoungJoonKim]

I dont understand lol
I'm confused

 

[mayfly]

logic and reason are but the first of the dangerous ideologies of the awful capitalist elite which fall to the salvation theory of socialist policy.

...the church itself is probably somewhere on top of the list too. There is no church, there is no God, there is only the MOTHERLAND!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, that accurately summarizes socialism. Did you know that in socialist Cuba Castro persecuted and even murdered Christians for their faith?

Ditto for socialist Stahlin, socialist Mao, and Socialist Hitler. And in nations where socialism is strongest in western Europe like France, there is anti-Christian persecution now too... only they just put you into prison and take away your property in France. They don't yet kill you the way they used to in the old days. Did you know that the gov't approves churches in socialist France? And evangelical churches are not allowed to build churches in many places but R.C. are? That is official policy in socialist France.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

...that's too bad.
The France's practice of their socialistic view has nothing to do with free socialistic country, like Britain.
...but the policy against Christian and socialistic system of government, I don't see it as merging fact. Everything has to do with country's policy towards the believers, not socialism.
Did you know China is persecuting Christians openly as well as to Muslims? They are like dirt to them.
Did you know USA slaughtered off all Indians and erased them off history?
Did you know Indian rights in Canada and USA is really non-existent and they are suffering because we killed their tradition, literally?
Did you know capitalism is forcing millions of workers, worldwide, into slavery with $0.02 per hour?

Eh...yeah
It has everything to do with policy & ethical conduct.
Capitalism kills more babies lol