• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

What is Charismatic Neo-Gnosticism and Why Should it Be Resisted?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I believe that the Holy Spirit has actively guided the Church throughout its long history. After all, didn’t Jesus tell us, “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not hold out against it” (Matthew 16.18, AmpV). I believe Christ has done/is doing that very thing through the Holy Spirit and the principle way He builds His Church is through the appointed ministries of God-given “apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers” (Ephesians 4.11) who are given to the Church for a specific purpose -“the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church), [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him” (vv.12-13, AmpV).

Truth has been safeguarded for us, IMO, in the orthodox teachings and writings of the apostles, church fathers, theologians, and teachers who have graciously left us their teachings in writing (just as God has in His written Word) who have correctly, often at supreme cost, left us the truthful interpretation of Scripture. These teachers still exist among us to keep us in line with God’s Holy Scriptures. I am not saying these fallible men and women are always perfect in their interpretations, but they do exist to set the boundaries for our beliefs. When we overstep those historical, orthodox boundaries we need to back up and take another look at our belief systems.

It is a mark of cults to fly in the face of orthodoxy and belittle the work and calling of the men and women of God that the Lord has so graciously given to us to keep us from wandering into error. Early on Gnosticism, Arianism, Docetism, Montanism, Manichaeism, Pelagianism, Donatism, etc. were branded the heresies they were and their dangers and errors exposed by those godly teachers who stormed and tore down those “gates of Hades” exposing them to the light of day and the truth of Scripture.

Some P/C/W's believe that it is okay to reject objective truth for subjective revelation - in particular, those who claim that “the Lord/Holy Spirit reveals to me the truth of scripture” as though all the work done by those who have gone before is without merit. Such otherwise godly believers are merely returning to the first heresy of the church, Gnosticism, all dressed up and disguised in modern clothes and new jargon, but which was resisted and overcame long ago by no less than the Apostles (in particular John, but also Paul) and the teachers who followed them. Still Gnosticism exists among us, finding resurgence in modern times as Neo-Gnosticism, which has infiltrated even the ranks of the Spirit-filled Charismatic Movement.

By way of definition: Gnosticism is “a blanket term for various religions and sects most prominent in the first few centuries A.D. Its name comes from the Greek word for knowledge, gnosis, referring to the idea that there is special, hidden knowledge that only a few may possess, a divine knowledge that comes only by inner revelation. Gnostic sects were deemed unorthodox and heretical by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.” (A good objective, non-religious overview of the Gnsotic heresy can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism). FYI, This link will also outline Gnosticism in modern/popular culture.

The Watchman Fellowship (http://www.watchman.org) says in its profile of the E. W. Kenyon and the beginnings of the Word-Faith movement,
“As a movement rather than an organized group, there is no founder or founding date, per se. The philosophical roots extend to Gnosticism. E.W. Kenyon (1860-1948) was perhaps the earliest modern exponent to blend the movement's eastern mystical and New Age elements with Christian teaching. ... Born in 1860, E. W. Kenyon is generally recognized as the founding father of the modern Word-Faith Movement. Beginning as a Methodist, he became quite ecumenical, associating with the Baptists. Some of his work even resulted in the founding of a few Primitive Baptist Churches. Late in life, Kenyon moved into Pentecostalism. At the same time, he combined elements of the metaphysical cults, such as Christian Science, New Thought theology, and Unity School of Christianity (D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel, pp. 31-35). The doctrines of correct thinking and believing accompanied by positive confession, with the result of calling a sickness a symptom (denial of reality supported by a Gnostic dualism) are not found in Christian writings until after New Thought and its offspring had begun to develop them. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to state that the doctrine originated and developed in these cults, and was later absorbed by Christians in their quest to develop a healing ministry (H. Terris Neuman, An Analysis of the Sources of the Charismatic Teaching of Positive Confession, p. 43). … Though obviously not the movement's originator, some have also called Kenneth Hagin the "grand-daddy of the faith teachers" (Sherry Andrews, "Kenneth Hagin, Keeping the Faith," Charisma, October 1981, p. 24). In a survey of readers of Charisma (a major Charismatic magazine) concerning those ministers that influence them the most, Kenneth Hagin was 3rd, ranked behind only TV evangelist Pat Robertson, and the heir apparent to the Word-Faith movement throne, Kenneth Copeland (Kenneth Hagin, Jr., Charisma, "Trend Toward the Faith Movement," August 1985, pp. 67-70).
This inner-knowledge, gnosis, of being led by the Spirit to understanding Scripture and doctrinal truth while ignoring the teaching of the teachers God has graciously given His church through the centuries is a sure-fire way to dangerously place yourself outside orthodox Christianity and, therefore, should be resisted, not embraced. Furthermore, independent interpretation of scripture leads only to more division in a Church already torn by factions. Heck, people who only receive doctrine by revelation usually stand (bizarrely) apart from everyone else. The deception of neo-Gnosticism is that it sounds so much more spiritual than ordinary old orthodoxy. And that's its most sinister attraction to some.

~Jim

PS. Want to do a sobering study of this dangerous phenomenon? Do a Google search with “gnosticism Pentecostal”, “gnosticism Charismatic” and “gnosticism Word Faith” in the search field and see how many links come up.
 

NewSong

♪♫♫♪♫
Nov 8, 2004
19,801
4,173
✟62,207.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jim:

This is almost identical only with a different approach as to what I am getting taught in Sunday School --the history of how different things got started is vital and if everyone would take time to read and find out then they would see why they would question it.

I applaud your post of how it came into existance. I am still weighing out some other things but this post is really good. We were actually studying pre 1860 and the works when pentecostalism came to be and what resulted it was awesome. You have some of the same events in here as we briefly touched on Sunday a.m. in our church. :)

Thanks,

NewSong

P.S. I feel I need some deprogramming because some infiltrated beliefs and just getting back to God and what HE says. So you may see me stating one thing one minute and another in another minute because I have dabbled without just about anything in my search for God. BUT THIS post above I do believe is very much on the button. :)
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
24,607
4,612
48
PA
✟211,402.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You've used an awful lot of big words to say this:

We should not believe what God has told us in our close, personal relationship with Him. We should esteem higher the interpretations of man. That's not what my Bible says:

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I know, I know, I've probably taken this out of context. Again. When will I learn.
 
Upvote 0

NewSong

♪♫♫♪♫
Nov 8, 2004
19,801
4,173
✟62,207.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
probinson said:
You've used an awful lot of big words to say this:

We should not believe what God has told us in our close, personal relationship with Him. We should esteem higher the interpretations of man. That's not what my Bible says:

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I know, I know, I've probably taken this out of context. Again. When will I learn.

I believe the big words were adequately defined but just in case here is a link to the dictionary I use when I run across words I do not know. http://lookwayup.com/free/dictionary.htm

Also we cannot interpret and be our own counsel. That is a good way to be deceived. Please consider the possiblity of studying the history and the facts. I know that it is hard to let go of something we so adamantly defended because I have been there and done that but I would maintain that I rather be challenged than deceived.

GBU probinson.

NewSong
 
Upvote 0

JimB

Legend
Jul 12, 2004
26,337
1,595
Nacogdoches, Texas
Visit site
✟34,757.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
probinson said:
You've used an awful lot of big words to say this:

We should not believe what God has told us in our close, personal relationship with Him. We should esteem higher the interpretations of man. That's not what my Bible says:

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I know, I know, I've probably taken this out of context. Again. When will I learn.
No need to be snotty, Pete. This is simply a view I am offering in an open forum and one held by many others beside myself. Please, I am not your enemy. Sheesh!!

To answer your question - Because we have an enemy who is expert in deception, we need to be careful about these subjective “revelations” we receive and always check them against the Word. You know, “try the spirits to see if they are of God”; “test everything and hold fast to that which is good”. Of course, of “the Spirit” tells you not to do try the spirits or test everything then I guess you have to follow what you “feel”. And therein lies the danger.

Real wisdom, the kind James refers to, should tell you this. It is not the false wisdom that would remove you from Christian orthodoxy or the truthful teaching of God’s Word.

~Jim
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
24,607
4,612
48
PA
✟211,402.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
NewSong said:
I believe the big words were adequately defined but just in case here is a link to the dictionary I use when I run across words I do not know. http://lookwayup.com/free/dictionary.htm

Also we cannot interpret and be our own counsel. That is a good way to be deceived. Please consider the possiblity of studying the history and the facts. I know that it is hard to let go of something we so adamantly defended because I have been there and done that but I would maintain that I rather be challenged than deceived.

GBU probinson.

NewSong

Thanks Newsong.

I know what the big words mean. I simply meant, I ain't buying it.

I have a close personal relationship with my Father in heaven. I have for many, many years. It is not my interpretation. It's God's truth. I don't come up with "bizarre" interpretations. Some people think that I'm nuts, but I can give you scripture for every one of my beliefs. Additionally, I have seen the results in my own life. This is what they mean when they say the "proof of the pudding is in the eating".

I do not belong to a "cult". While it's true some say they have received revelation from God and then do something contrary to scripture, this is not what I do. Not even close. Most people that know me would say I am a very level-headed, balanced individual.

Historical teachers have much to offer. I am not refuting that. But when they teach something that goes contrary to God's character, I will take God's word over man's "interpretation" of what it meant any day.

Am I something special? Nope. Not at all. Every believer can have the same relationship with God. It's just a matter of desire, diligently seeking His face, to know Him more.
 
Upvote 0

9-iron

Football Fan
Jun 14, 2002
3,481
151
55
Texas
Visit site
✟4,518.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
We should not believe what God has told us in our close, personal relationship with Him. We should esteem higher the interpretations of man. That's not what my Bible says:

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I know, I know, I've probably taken this out of context. Again. When will I learn.

This is a very valid point. However, the issue is you aren't taking your personal revelations and forming doctrines and building churches. The scripture is referencing your personal spiritual life.
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
24,607
4,612
48
PA
✟211,402.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Jim M said:
No need to be snotty, Pete. This is simply a view I am offering in an open forum and one held by many others beside myself. Please, I am not your enemy. Sheesh!!

To answer your question - Because we have an enemy who is expert in deception, we need to be careful about these subjective “revelations” we receive and always check them against the Word. You know, “try the spirits to see if they are of God”; “test everything and hold fast to that which is good”. Of course, of “the Spirit” tells you not to do try the spirits or test everything then I guess you have to follow what you “feel”. And therein lies the danger.

Real wisdom, the kind James refers to, should tell you this. It is not the false wisdom that would remove you from Christian orthodoxy or the truthful teaching of God’s Word.

~Jim

I am sorry if you thought I was being snotty. That was not my intent.

Anyone can make the bible say anything they want. I know that. I've seen some pretty messed up interpretations of scripture. But as I've said over and over again, once you have a relationship with the Father and you begin to KNOW Him, you needn't question simple things.

I don't have to question or "take in context" everything my wife says to me. It's not necessary for me to ask why she does certain things. Why? Because I know her. I know her character. I know she would never do anything hurt me. I know she has our mine and our son's best interest at heart. That comes only with relationship. I can not be taught these things by someone else, but only through my relationship with my wife do I learn her heart.

Historical teachers are wonderful, we can learn much from them, but it is only through a relationship with God that truth can be revealed. You can not learn who God is. You must experience Him for yourself.

Thanks for the Happy Birthday. I know you're not my enemy. I am just very passionate about my relationship with the Father and I apologize.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Latreia
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
20,726
4,461
Midlands
Visit site
✟775,110.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is the classical shell game where the difference of definitions destroys the dialogue.
"Revelation Knowledge" as concieved by WoF and many non-WoF P/Cs does not mean "new revelation".
"Revelation Knowledge" simply means to have belief imparted to your heart rather than merely memorized in your head.
 
Upvote 0

JimfromOhio

Life of Trials :)
Feb 7, 2004
27,738
3,738
Central Ohio
✟67,748.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I have been good resisting posting but I could not resist this thread. I wanted to avoid posting but I got this "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jim M again."..... dang it !! :sigh: I want to just post to support JimM's OP.

"Deception" in my Blog:

Blog # 695. Self-deception and How to Avoid It (By A.W. Tozer)

OF ALL FORMS OF DECEPTION, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud.
(Go to my Blog for a link to this article.)

Blog # 687. My 2,500 posts! On Deception! Depending on how we decide we live....

1 John 4:6 (Message)
But we come from God and belong to God. Anyone who knows God understands us and listens. The person who has nothing to do with God will, of course, not listen to us. This is another test for telling the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of deception.

Satan told Eve The serpent told the Woman, "You won't die." Genesis 3:4 (The Message)

James 1:26 Anyone who sets himself up as "religious" by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. (Message)

Isaiah 28:15 (Message) You say, "We've taken out good life insurance. We've hedged all our bets, covered all our bases. No disaster can touch us. We've thought of everything. We're advised by the experts. We're set."

Obadiah 1:3 (Message) You thought you were so great, perched high among the rocks, king of the mountain, Thinking to yourself, "Nobody can get to me! Nobody can touch me!'

Hosea 12:8 (Message) Ephraim boasted, "Look, I'm rich! I've made it big! And look how well I've covered my tracks: not a hint of fraud, not a sign of sin!"

Blog # 686. Testing the spirits

The most dangerous deception is the “self-deception.” (Read the book of Proverbs)

When I am having my personal relationship with God, I am reminded by my past mentors that I am to test the spirits to make sure I am not deceiving myself into thinking and interpreting what the Holy Spirit is telling me. There are spiritual deceivers as much physical deceivers and the most dangerous deceivers are usually “self” more than others. It is a delusion to think I can hear God’s Word, then disobey whatever I think the spirit is telling me without cost. I, like many Christians, have deluded myself into action without checking with the Word of God.

“Satan has opposed the doctrine of the Spirit-filled life about as bitterly as any other doctrine there is. He (Satan) has confused it, opposed it, surrounded it with false notions and fears.” A.W. Tozer (How to be filled with the Holy Spirit).

Proverbs 14:12 (The Message) There's a way of life that looks harmless enough; look again--it leads straight to hell.

Deuteronomy 29:19 (The Message) a person who hears the words of the Covenant-oath but exempts himself, thinking, "I'll live just the way I please, thank you," and ends up ruining life for everybody.

Psalm 10:6 (The Message) They live (they think) a charmed life: "We can't go wrong. This is our lucky year!"

Matthew 7:21-22 (The Message)
"Knowing the correct password--saying "Master, Master,' for instance--isn't going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedience--doing what my Father wills. I can see it now--at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, "Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.'

2 Peter 3:4 (The Message)
they'll mock, "So what's happened to the promise of his Coming? Our ancestors are dead and buried, and everything's going on just as it has from the first day of creation. Nothing's changed."
 
Upvote 0

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2002
20,726
4,461
Midlands
Visit site
✟775,110.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Jim,
If you are suggesting that we all should return to an earlier form of orthodoxy because God uses the status-quo to preserve truth... then this is going to involve us returning to a 1600s version of Roman Catholicism that was the orthodox view of western Europe for a thousand years.
The concept that "current truth" as held by the church is the total truth as revealed in scripture makes no sense. That implies that we exist now in perfection and there is no need to change.
Jesus said we would do the works He did and greater works.
Unless you are seeing the dead raised in our shadows and bread being multiplied to feed thousands... then we are not there.
 
Upvote 0

heron

Legend
Mar 24, 2005
19,443
962
✟48,756.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I think that the key to what he is saying, is in its definition: "Gnosis, referring to the idea that there is special, hidden knowledge that only a few may possess, a divine knowledge that comes only by inner revelation."

I have seen vicious competition in people who have read many books and attended many seminars, getting into concepts so deep that they err from scriptures. In prayer circles, these people insult the efforts of others, imply inadequacy or lesser knowledge, or shallower faith, relationship with God. When church members offer to take on a needed task, "higher" members put them through a nasty approval process, or say "we don't feel it's God's will" and leave needed tasks undone (like Sunday School teaching).

The danger is not in hearing from God, but in putting personal revelation above the scriptures, or above the needs and well-being of others.
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
24,607
4,612
48
PA
✟211,402.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
heron said:
I think that the key to what he is saying, is in its definition: "Gnosis, referring to the idea that there is special, hidden knowledge that only a few may possess, a divine knowledge that comes only by inner revelation."

I have seen vicious competition in people who have read many books and attended many seminars, getting into concepts so deep that they err from scriptures. In prayer circles, these people insult the efforts of others, imply inadequacy or lesser knowledge, or shallower faith, relationship with God. When church members offer to take on a needed task, "higher" members put them through a nasty approval process, or say "we don't feel it's God's will" and leave needed tasks undone (like Sunday School teaching).

The danger is not in hearing from God, but in putting personal revelation above the scriptures, or above the needs and well-being of others.

Good point. But I've also seen this flip-flopped. Some people I've run across are so proud of their studies of orthodoxy and their interpretations of the scripture that they believe that their knowledge is THE one and only truth. These are the people that require you have some sort of degree or what not in the approval process that you speak of.

As in everything, balance is the key.
 
Upvote 0

Johnny Be Good

If you have not love...
Jun 17, 2004
1,566
50
60
Waynesville, Missouri
Visit site
✟1,990.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Trish1947 said:
Gee, why doesn't everybody just get down and say what they really want say? Let's get down to the offending..this is the only way it can be put out on the table so we all can understand it.;)

OK--I'm locked and loaded, AS USUAL.

FOR STARTERS, you start your thread, Jim, by stating, "“I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not hold out against it”--which implies that YOU think that our Trust in God BECAUSE OF what scripture CLEARLY says Faith IS, is not only dead wrong, but unneeded as well--cause no matter what we do, God's gonna build His church. Heck--why even bother with the Great Commission. I guess God was wrong there too.

:doh:

SECONDLY, BY DEFINITION, you are practicing Gnosticism. What does this mean to you, Jim? "...it is okay to reject objective truth for subjective revelation"? Have you noticed that you reject what scripture says--WHAT IT SAYS--in order to rely instead upon what YOU think God means.

:doh:

Have you noticed that your entire post speaks nothing but generalities?! Just what is it that you disagree with? We know that you believe in divine healing--and this is the only specific subject dealt with in your slanderous spew of a post. Tewwey--it's neither not nor cold. :sick: Nothing but slanderous, misleading personally-held-belief support.

List your issues and we shall deal with the BY WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS and NOT through subjective revelation.

Tewwey! :sick:
 
Upvote 0

Trish1947

Free to Believe
Nov 14, 2003
7,645
411
78
California
Visit site
✟32,417.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
I believe that all "revelation", (oops!, there's that word again) maybe we could call it the "shining" ;) comes from the word. You know how it goes, you've read it a hundred times before, but this time it illuminated your spirit, and it became truth. It's no longer just head knowledge. Is this what we are talking about? I also believe God can say things to you. So are we not to hear the voice of God?

I left a hose running outside once, went to bed that night, got woke up in the middle of the night, and heard the Lord say, "you left the water on".which is good that He did that, or the whole foundation of our house would have been undermined...But it's not in scripture.. So I don't know what anybody is saying here. Wheather you are reading it from the Book, hearing it through preaching, or hearing it from the Spirit within you, it's still the same one saying it.
The word of God becomes alive in your spirit. And it only comes alive to us with there is revealing to our spirit.

Orthodoxy, becomes more of a creed to follow doesn't it? You follow the book, so trusting the Spirit within you, becomes less and less..when God says something, like "you left the water on", do I need to run to the Bible and check it out first if it was from God? When you hear it, there's no mistaking that voice. "My Sheep know My Voice.'
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.