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What is Authoratative?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Extirpated Wildlife, Nov 13, 2002.

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  1. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Interesting Quotes from Christadelphianism

    (Unless marked, all quotes are from the Christadelphian book,
    The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, by Harry Tennant, The Christadelphian, 404 Shaftmoor Lane, Birmingham B28 8SZ, England, 1986.)


    "It will surprise some readers to know that nowhere in Scripture are the words "immortal" and "soul" brought together. Immortality is God's own inherent nature, and His alone" (page. 17).

    "The second secret of the cross is that it is the source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free" (page 71).

    "The Bible approach is much simpler and much more satisfying. Forgiveness comes to the man who believes the Gospel, repents, and is baptized in the name of Christ" (page 71).

    "The wondrous benefits from the saving work of Jesus flow to us and are effective for us when we come in faith, repentant, and join Jesus in his death by baptism into his name" (page 72).

    "Therefore, we conclude that it is not only that Jesus was called a sinner at his trial by his enemies or that he was "numbered with the transgressors" when he was crucified between two thieves, but more particularly that he shared the very nature which had made a sinner out of every other man who had borne it" (page 74).

    "There is no hint in the Old Testament that the Son of God was already existent or in any way active at that time" (page 85).

    "Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was first promised, and came into being only when he was born of the virgin Mary" (page 86).

    "We ask the question: When was Jesus 'in the form of God'? Christadelphians believe that Jesus was in the form of God by his birth through begettal by the Father, by speaking the words of God and doing His works" (page 87).

    "Jesus worships God: God worships no one" (page 88).

    "The Spirit is not a 'separate' or 'other' person. It is God's own radiant power, ever out flowing from Him, by which His 'everywhereness' is achieved. The Spirit is personal in that it is of God Himself: it is not personal in the sense of being some other person within the Godhead" (page 115).

    "A believing, repentant person receives forgiveness of sins by being baptized" (pages 207-8).

    "True baptism removes past sins" (page 208).

    "Therefore the wonderful work of baptism is essential to salvation" (page 210).

    "Salvation is not a one-for-all, irreversible happening" (page 212).

    "He [Jesus] saved himself in order to save us." (Christadelphian Answers, Compiled by Frank G. Jannaway. A reproduction of an original edition by, The Herald Press, 4011 Bolivia, Houston, Texas, 77092, 1920. page 24)

    "And it was for that very reason -- being a member of a sinful race -- that the Lord Jesus himself needed salvation." (Answers, p. 24)

    "The terms Satan and Devil are simply expressive of "sin in the flesh" in individual, social, and political manifestations." (Answer, p. 100)


    CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS AND RESEARCH MINISTRY
     
  2. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    parousia... sure, I see no problem with "analyzing scripture"... or "exegetical" exercises. (big word)

    Matthew 24...

    perhaps the key is in verse 21

    lets see where you go. (He is coming again, even though many of the descriptions are fulfilled every day--verse 34.)

    I bet that there will be good stuff in verse 36 though... because Christ was not always the Son. God became flesh... becoming the Son in that He became subservient to death out of love for us. (Check the numerous threads on the nature of Christ to see the word.) These things pertain to the Son.

    take care

    FOW
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Fantastic!

    Matt 24:21 (FOW's "Key Verse")

    "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

    This is not where I  was headed by suggesting this excercise, but it deserves looking into anyway.

    I find it interesting that this same language of "ever was nor ever shall be" is used to describe no less than 3 different Kings in the OT. How do you suppose each King could be the Greatest that ever was or ever shall be?, especially since Jesus exceeds all 3!

    Also, Scripture testifies that the Babylonian Captivity was to be the greatest desolation of Israel that "ever was or ever would be".

    Fascinating stuff isn't it? especially since Israel saw an even greater desolation in 70AD than in Babylon!

    Clearly "Ever was nor ever shall be" is an hebraic idom for "Very great", since one cannot square a literal rendering with it's precidented scriptural usage.

    Anyway, back to my initial focus....

    Clearly you believe the Fulfillment of Matt 24 lies in our future. I, on the other hand, believe it is past.

    Since you believe it future, let me ask for your understanding of Matt 24:34..

    Which "Generation" was Jesus referring to?

    I contend it was the generation then living when Jesus spoke.

    You elluded above to an understanding that "this generation" encompasses the last 2000 years. Is this your view?
     
  4. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Welp... right now... all I have is the NIV... but the differences (very minor verbaslims) will not confuse the message.

    So...


    This generation... is that generation that He was with... and is also ours as well.

    Tell me this... why do you think that "it" has occured?

    FOW
     
  5. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    and remember... the babylonian capture of Israel very well could have been their lowest point. It very well could mean "spiritually" low

    Regardless... the point is still made clearly

    FOW
     
  6. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    pertaining to the kings... references would be nice... so we are on the same sheet of music... (although I don't doubt that it says it as you say it does... this is not a "problem" at all... just to record it all)

    FOW
     
  7. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    one more thing... for example... if you say that "the greatest" is used for king so and so... and also used for king such and such... and by that logic say that "the greatest" therefore cannot really mean the actual greatest... then you would limit Christ being able to later say something is really indeed "the greatest"

    just to keep this interesting

    FOW
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I wasn't trying to discredit the Bible. Believe!
     
  9. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    False assumption, false equivocation, and irrelevant reference to copyright laws. The original manuscripts were not copyrighted therefore are not subject to protection under U.S. laws., per se. What the copyright laws can and do protect are translations. For example, the RSV, NIV, ASV, etc. cannot be copied verbatim, or with only minor changes, and copyrighted as a new work. Also these laws protect the work of scholars who have spent many years writing their translations, from having their work used without adequate compensation. Which is only fair and just.

    Place any major versions side by side and note that the differences are very slight and do not affect Theology.
     
  10. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    I know you do OldShepherd... We are in agreement

    take care...

    FOW
     
  11. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    meaning... I know you believe... and that you would not attempt to "discredit" something that will not be discredited.

    like I said... we are very much in agreement through Christ.

    take care

    FOW
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    How then do you understand "this generation shall not pass"? what does "shall not pass" mean? Clearly the Generation of Jesus and the Apostles has long since passed, yet Jesus said it wouldn't pass until all was fulfilled.

    If Jesus was speaking to multiple generations, then isn't that phrase effectively stripped of any meaning at all?

    Also, you say it was the generation He was speaking to, and ours. Is that it? or was He speaking to all the generations inbetween as well?

     
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I believe scripture restricts the 2nd coming to a 1st century time frame in the broadest sense, and specifically restricts it to the events of AD66-70.

    I'm happy explore the specifics with you as we continue.....

    first though, on to the Kings next post....

     
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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      Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or
    after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of
    Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be
    the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. And, of course,
    Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon (Matt. 12:42).

    I'd again ask you to comment on how the same Old Testament idea of "never will be again" is employed of various judgments that have already been fulfilled, such as locusts in Egypt (Ex. 10:12-15; cf. Joel 1:1-4), a cry in Egypt (Ex. 11:6), and judgment upon OT Israel (Ez. 5:9; Joel 2:2).   Seriously, how can you ever square Ezekiel 5:8-9 with some yet-future "greatest disaster against Israel" ?  The prophet Ezekiel, in Ez 5:8-9, clearly calls the Babylonian desolation against Israel the greatest disaster that God will ever bring against Israel.   With your hermeneutic, there is no way to claim that some GREATER disasters lie in political Israel's future, or to claim that AD70 was worse than the Babylonian exile (when it clearly was)  No way at all.  Ezekiel assigns the "Greatest of all"  to 586 BC!
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I don't limit, scriptural precident limits. But, just to keep things interesting, the events of AD66-70 were indeed the greatest tribulation, covenantally speaking, ever experienced by human beings.  No greater covenantal Judgement ever before befell Human beings, and no greater covenantal Judgement ever will again.  
     
    The historic fact is that AD 70 was the greatest desoloation in Israel's history.  Jews are the first to admit this.   AD 70 was a far greater Day of the Lord event than even Babylon.  Plus, they lost their connection to the prophets.  No prohpets have been raised up among the Jews in 20 centuries now.  In O.T. times, whenever God judged Israel, he always gave prophets to guide them and direct them.   God has provided zero provision for the Jews since AD 70.  No living voice, no capability of following Moses.  Modern Judaism is TALMUDIC Judaism, not MOSAIC Judaism.  Jews today simply do not obey Moses' commands, nor can they.  AD 70 made obedience to Moses impossible.   The Old Covenant is not in use any more.  Thus, the Jews are entirely without a covenant.  


    Greatest of all indeed!
     
  16. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Posted by parousia: "How then do you understand "this generation shall not pass"? what does "shall not pass" mean? Clearly the Generation of Jesus and the Apostles has long since passed, yet Jesus said it wouldn't pass until all was fulfilled. If Jesus was speaking to multiple generations, then isn't that phrase effectively stripped of any meaning at all? Also, you say it was the generation He was speaking to, and ours. Is that it? or was He speaking to all the generations inbetween as well?"

    Well... everything that He said preceeding that verse was fulfilled... and is fullfilled today. They are "signs" of the end of the age.
     
  17. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Posted by parousia: "Scripture tells us in 1 Kings 3:12 that there was "no king like Solomon before or after him." Such statements are then repeated in 2 Kings 18:5-6 of Hezekiah and in 2 Kings 23:25 of Josiah. Obviously, they can't all be the greatest King there ever was nor ever shall be. And, of course, Jesus Christ surpasses even Solomon (Matt. 12:42)."

    Well first of all... pertaining to Christ... is much different than pertaining to the (little k) kings. The kings listed above were kings of Israel or of Judah. They were kings in a governmental sense. Even if not... my above assertion about limiting the statement "greater" remains logically true.

    Secondly... the fact is that they are each called something different...

    1 Kings 3:12--"... I will give you a wise and descerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be."

    2 Kings 18:5--"Hezekiah trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel. There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, either before him or after him."

    2 Kings 23:25--"Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses."

    Notice that all of these statements are distinct. They are not declaring the same thing at all. One is about wisdom... which indeed did make Solomon unique among all kings. One is unique to Hezekiah... saying that there was no one like him... (there might not be anyone like me, or you)... doesn't say anything but that. The last reference you give says, (again), something unique to Josiah... that there was no one who turned to the LORD like he did pertaining to all the kings of Judah. If the Bible says that... then I believe it.

    Even if your opinions about the matter were correct... it would still not mean that any other time the Bible says "never before nor after, or something to that effect" that it cannot be held as true.

    Posted by parousia: "Seriously, how can you ever square Ezekiel 5:8-9 with some yet-future "greatest disaster against Israel" ? The prophet Ezekiel, in Ez 5:8-9, clearly calls the Babylonian desolation against Israel the greatest disaster that God will ever bring against Israel. With your hermeneutic, there is no way to claim that some GREATER disasters lie in political Israel's future, or to claim that AD70 was worse than the Babylonian exile (when it clearly was) No way at all. Ezekiel assigns the "Greatest of all" to 586 BC!"

    Once again... you say that AD 70 was the worst, and you are not the Bible. Was AD 70 worse for Israel than the Babylonian exile? If so... then how. Was it spiritually worse? If so, then explain how? And my Bible says... "...I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again." (Ez 5:9)

    So in effect... (and even though it may not matter much anyhow)... your opinions on this matter are definitely up personal interpretation.

    take care

    FOW
     
  18. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    also... why do you assume that AD 70 was the worst trial for Christians? Do you know that this last century saw more martyrs than all of the centuries before combined?
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So, are you saying everything before verse 34 was completely fulfilled by the time the the last apostle died?, or are you saying the signs have been in a state of ongoing fulfillment over the last 2000 years but have not yet reached "complete and final" fulfillment?

    Here's How The Holy Bible,"Todays English Version" renders our Lords words in this verse:

    Matt 24:34 TEV

    "Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

    I assume, from our previous conversations about the different Biblical translations, that you are in agreement with this particular rendering.

    If so, then you must conclude that among other things, the "Abomination of Desolation" took place in the 1st century (Vs 15), and the "great tribulation" took place in the 1st century (Vs 21), The moon not giving light, stars falling from Heaven and sun darkening took place in the 1st century(Vs 29), The "sign of the son of Man in heaven" took place in the 1st century (Vs 30), And the Gathering of the Elect took place then as well (vs 31).

    Looks as though our beliefs aren't that different after all!

    ;)
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    It appears to me that you are asserting this idea presuppositionally--Can you prove from explicit scriptures that such a divide is to be applied as you intend?    (In fact, the N.T. argues that we are all expected to be transformed into the very image and nature of Jesus through sanctification by the Spirit, thus it seems that the divide is not so great as you would like to think.)  In fact, I see explicit evidence that the opposite is true.
     
    It's amazing, for Christ's own words in Matt 12:41-42 show a human comparison is being made.  Christ himself is violating your premise in Matt 12:41-24 by comparing himself with both Jonah and Solomon!  If this "creator/creature" distinction is so plain and absolute, Jesus sure doesn' t honor it--he compares himself to Solomon and Jonah.   The comparision cannot then be said to be a fair comparision, for what man should be compared with God?  Yet Jesus clearly is making such a comparison.

     
    For me to even begin to embrace your assertion, you'll need to show scriptural evidence that Jesus isn't a human King of Israel, and thus is to be exempt from the kings we are discussing (Solomon, Jesus,  Hezekiah, Josiah).   I do not see any evidence to support such a radical distinction.  Such a distinction, IMO, denies, by default, that Jesus was "Fully Human". A notion I reject.


    Interesting how you argue  that the Kings were indeed the greatest " in certain aspects", but argue against such for 70AD.  And again, Jesus Himself surpasses the wisdom of Solomon and clearly He "turned to the father" in a more pure and true fashion than even Josiah.


     


    Ok, I'll explain how, again.

     As a result of AD70, the Jews lost their connection to the prophets.  No prohpets have been raised up among the Jews in 20 centuries now.  In O.T. times, whenever God judged Israel, he always gave prophets to guide them and direct them.   God has provided zero provision for the Jews since AD 70.  No living voice, no capability of following Moses.  Modern Judaism is TALMUDIC Judaism, not MOSAIC Judaism.  Jews today simply do not obey Moses' commands, nor can they.  AD 70 made obedience to Moses impossible.   The Old Covenant is not operational any more, nor can it be.  Thus, the Jews are entirely without a covenant.  

    That made it the worst. 

    This was not true of the Egyptian Exile, the Babylonian exile, or any previous Judgement against Israel.  Even the events of WW2 didn't carry such "eternal" ramifications for the Jews.


    Indeed, nothing that "great" had ever happened to them before or has since, nor ever will, or even can, again.

    P70
     
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