What is Authoratative?

[fieldsofwind]

thankyou... I'll be back with you in a bit. Currently, I'm involved with a few other things.

But!!! I promise I'm not trying to ignore you... lol

take care

FOW

 

[fieldsofwind]

I don't think it is over yet, referring to this part of your post: "If the apostles saw "all these things" come to pass, then I assure you, they saw what took place "Immediatly after".

It may have begun then, but it isn't over.

Posted by parousia: "The plain text, in context, is once again clear. Jesus told His apostles, "when you (the apostles) are persecuted in one city of Israel, flee to another, for you [the apostles] shall not finish going through all Israels cities before the son of man comes" (2nd coming)."

I still assert that it does indeed mean what it says. That they are the seed, and that their seed will not finish growing in Israel before Christ's return. Remember this: (the apostles) are words that are not there. I think that He did indeed mean them for us as well, as He clearly portrayed by saying that His word would never pass away.

Even the end of John gives the impression that they would not be there for the actual return.

Why would God put Revelation in His word if He did not intend for us to be expecting His return?

In Zechariah 14:2, you see the LORD saying that Jerusalem will be captured. In verse 3 you see Him saying that "then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime--a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light. On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter. The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name."

Now, do you think that all of this has happened, even though God said after the capture of Jerusalem, "then" as in "then". You assert that it everything is meant for our own comprehension of time. However, I don't think that is what is implied here, or the LORD would be the king of the earth, and Jerusalem would have living water flowing out of it as we speak.

Take care

FOW

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Posted by parousia: "The plain text, in context, is once again clear. Jesus told His apostles, "when you (the apostles) are persecuted in one city of Israel, flee to another, for you [the apostles] shall not finish going through all Israels cities before the son of man comes" (2nd coming)."

I still assert that it does indeed mean what it says. That they are the seed, and that their seed will not finish growing in Israel before Christ's return. Remember this: (the apostles) are words that are not there. I think that He did indeed mean them for us as well, as He clearly portrayed by saying that His word would never pass away.

But FOW, that is not what the text says at all.

There is nothing in that text about a "seed" growing for 2000+ years.  The text is clear. The apostles themselves would have not finished going through the cities of Israel before the Son of man came.

Look, when was the last time you were persecuted in one of Israel's cities, then fleed to another? If this passage is for you as you claim, than it is a command for YOU to go from city to city in ISRAEL preaching the Gospel. Better get crackin'. 

Why would God put Revelation in His word if He did not intend for us to be expecting His return?

The same reason God put Pauls exhortation to the Philippians to expect Timothy's soon arrival.

Your Logic is flawed. The Bible is chalk full of FULFILLED PROPHESIES that we will not see come to pass for they already have, yet God put it in His word for us to learn from. Are you waiting for the Flood? then Why did God put it in His word? 

I don't think that is what is implied here, or the LORD would be the king of the earth, and Jerusalem would have living water flowing out of it as we speak.

He IS, and It DOES!

 

 

[fieldsofwind]

Posted by parousia: "The same reason God put Pauls exhortation to the Philippians to expect Timothy's soon arrival. Your Logic is flawed."

I don't think so

Parousia, you are very strict about a timeframe that is not given. I do think that the "immediately" is still to come, and I think that what it is said to come after is still occuring.

I don't think that the LORD has done the things described in Zechariah yet either.

If you do, then why do those not giving thanks to the LORD in Jerusalem recieve no rain?

FOW

 

[parousia70]

Not so fast FOW....

We can get to Zechariah in due time.

Can you explain why you are not fleeing from city to city in Israel?
Why are you ignoring Jesus COMMAND to YOU to do so?

Next, and foremost, I want you to elaborate on your statement that Jesus Christ is not King of the Earth today, for It is in direct conflict with scripture.

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on EARTH.

That's ALL Authority FOW.
You insist Jesus is not King of the earth, scripture teaches none has greater authority than Him TODAY.

Just what authority do you assert Jesus is currently lacking?

 

[parousia70]

On to Zecharaih 14.............

FOW, Placing the fulfillment of Zecharaih 14 into our future makes the Cross work of Christ of no effect, and amounts to "backwards redemption".

What you have is a scenerio where Jesus Christ will one day physically return to earth and require human beings to offer animal blood sacrifices directly to Him for atonement.

In contrast, my view affirms Christ's "once for all" sacrifice on the Cross.

I will never be convinced that the Jesus I serve will one day require animal sacrifices from anyone.

You'll need to try that hocus-pocus on somebody else, 'cause I aint buyin' it.

 

[fieldsofwind]

parousia, I know all authority is Christ's. That is something that is easy to say though, and much harder to live by. Seeing as how if men really believed that, then they would live differently (including believers). However, this does not mean that satan has been banished yet. He still seems to have alot of influence on the world.

Also, the part in Zechariah says nothing about animal sacrifices. Sacrifices, sounds like that would be something you do in your own life. Be a living sacrifice for Him. Anyways...

take care

FOW

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
parousia, I know all authority is Christ's. That is something that is easy to say though, and much harder to live by. Seeing as how if men really believed that, then they would live differently (including believers). However, this does not mean that satan has been banished yet. He still seems to have alot of influence on the world.

Satan has been forever defeated for believers. And since at at no point will non believers have victory over Satan, we can confidently claim Satan's total and complete defeat, right here, right now.

Unbelievers will never defeat Satan, And unbelievers will never share in Christ's defeat of him.

Satan is cast out, and was cast out by Christ in the 1st century, and since then, believers have had total and complete victory over him, (Luke 10:17-20).

And you are absolutely correct, it's high time we started acting like it!

Also, the part in Zechariah says nothing about animal sacrifices. Sacrifices, sounds like that would be something you do in your own life. Be a living sacrifice for Him.

You are forgetting this all takes place in the so called "Millennial Temple" a brick and mortar building painstakingly laid out for us in Ezekiel 40 and on. The areas set aside for slaying the animal atonement sacrifices, and their purpose, are described in minute detail.

Like I said, this view amounts to  "backwards redemption". There is no way around it. you are caliming God will return to the shadow, when the reality is here. God will go back to honoring a covenant He himself declared "obsolete" (Heb 8:13), a Ministry of death. (2Corinthians 3:7), rendering Christ's once for all sacrifice on the cross inneffective for those forced to sacrifice before Him in the Millennium.

You need to come up with a better "get around" of this passage than "We're living sacrifices"...... Unless of course the temple here is but a picture of the literal spiritual reality and not the reality itself, and "sacrifice" in this text, is to be understood  as the spiritual metaphore "living sacrifice" as you stated, and you are saying we're always to be "living sacrifices" in the spiritual Temple where we stand before Christ 24/7, answering to Him immediatly for everything we say, think and do......geee.....that sounds an awful lot like the present reality we enjoy as the Church.......

Anyway... I digress, could you please explain the action involved in going to Jerusalem, as a requirement on feast days, to stand before a physical Jesus and sacrifice to Him?

What does that look like exactly?

Once you get your turn standing face to face with Christ,(how long you have to wait for that I couldn't even begin to imagine), what does He require you to do?

If your view is correct, and one day in the future I am going to lose my current ability to stand face to face with Christ spiritually, any time of the day or night, and have a personal conversation directly with Him anytime I want, but instead be required to travel to Jerusalem each feast Day, wait in line with the entire human race, and stand before a physical Jesus to present myself as a sacrifice, I'd like to know what's involved.

Thanks,P70

 

[fieldsofwind]

And neither to I parousia, he made the sacrifice, and lives within.

So, What do you think it means?

and when did/will those things described take place?

By the way, what you state is my view, isn't.

take care

FOW

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
And neither to I parousia, he made the sacrifice, and lives within.

If you believe Jesus lives within you, right now, why are you still only waiting for him? 

So, What do you think it means?

I believe it is a picture of the true, and like you said, we are to always be "living sacrifices" in the "literal" temple of God which is the Church, indeed the very Body of Christ on Earth.

The Shadow is gone, the reality is here. 

and when did/will those things described take place?

Please be more specific.

By the way, what you state is my view, isn't.

How isn't it your view?