What is arminianism

[Filia Mariae]

This was hardly a productive contribution SP. If you have something to say, say it.

 

[cygnusx1]

Abba,

Please raise the issue of total depravity in OBOB.

Why ?

and keep our denominational gap wider ?

May I suggest that Abba asks the question here and in your "camp" then a choice can be made.

I also think some from here should ask a question in OBOB.........does that sound fair ?

 

[Abba]

Why ?

and keep our denominational gap wider ?

May I suggest that Abba asks the question here and in your "camp" then a choice can be made.

Because the way you explained it, you didnt convey sufficiently the ideas of the doctrine. Now that I understand that the doctrine essentially says that man lacks anything good in him, I also reject that as well as all those other legalistic doctrines.

It seems that you cannot fully understand what Jesus means by the "yeast of the pharisees" Fundamentalism is utterly wrong. You have simply rejected one erroneous doctrine recorded in the bible (salvation by strict observance of the Torah) for another.

The pharisees and sadducees had no reason prior to the day when Jesus rebuked them to believe differently. Its recorded in Scriptures right?

They failed to see the main message of the bible: Love of neighbor and love of God.

Love is what its all about. When we love one another, we echo that superior love which God has for every little human bieng. God doesnt love some people more than he loves others. What if you decided to love one of your children and hate the other?

God family encompass ALL people, even the very least of them

"Whatever you do to the least of my people, that you did unto me"

 

[wsgm]

let me ask you this question:

do you calvinists look upon god as a gracious merciful god? The ideas you are putting forth seem highly legalistic.

God is just, so there is a "legal" system. Man is sinful, and sin must be punished. Either that sin will be paid for by the sinner by spending eternity in hell, or Chirst paid for it by His death on the cross.

But God is full of grace and mercy. Anything outside of hell is grace, so He shows grace to all men as long as their are alive by showing them patience and giving them a multitude of earthly blessings. The air we breathe, the food we eat, the ground we walk on, the clothes we wear, the sun that shines, the rain that falls, gravity that keeps us from dying in the vacuum of space, our bodies, our minds, our friends, our families, the ability to love, and any other good gift is grace from Him. James 1:17 - "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."

He shows even greater grace to those He has chosen by His good pleasure. Salvation is pure, eternal grace because it is the complete, eternal separation from hell, the full expression of God's wrath. God chooses by grace, calls by grace, regenerates by grace, gives faith and repentance by grace, justifies by grace, adopts by grace, unites to Christ by grace, sanctifies by grace, and glorifies by grace. Every part of salvation is a gift from God, including our faith. (Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.") Salvation is completely God's work. If there was anything we could do to save ourselves, if we had to generate faith, if we had to choose Him, salvation would not be grace. We would have earned it. We could point to our faith and say, "Look what I did." But Eph 2:8-9 says that there is no room for boasting because God does it all. It is for the same reason that we can have assurance of salvation and know that we cannot lose it. It is God's work, and He will never fail.

 

[Filia Mariae]

Why ?

and keep our denominational gap wider ?

Because the doctrine was not adequately explained in here.

May I suggest that Abba asks the question here and in your "camp" then a choice can be made.

That is exactly what I suggested.

I also think some from here should ask a question in OBOB.........does that sound fair ?

We are always open to questions in OBOB and actively encourage people to come ask them.

 

[Abba]

God is just, so there is a "legal" system. Man is sinful, and sin must be punished. Either that sin will be paid for by the sinner by spending eternity in hell, or Chirst paid for it by His death on the cross.

It certainly isnt "just" for God to let others get a free ticket into heaven and let others perish because he never gave them a chance. And all because it contributes "to the glory of God." God isnt glorified by throwish people into ETERNAL TORMENT. It is saying that God loves to see people bieng tortured and bieng in anguish. It seems to me that this is what Satan would do, not God.

There is a difference from preaching salvation by grace, and preaching that there is nothing man can do for his salvation.

 

[JM]

This was hardly a productive contribution SP. If you have something to say, say it.

If you'd read the post, the quote and winking face is productive. By the OPer's comments you'll find he hasn't read Augustine and that is why the face was needed.

SP

 

[Filia Mariae]

If you'd read the post, the quote and winking face is productive. By the OPer's comments you'll find he hasn't read Augustine and that is why the face was needed.

SP

I did read the post. See I am one of those people who'd prefer if you came out and said straight up, "Well now, if you had read Augustine, you'd know he was a Calvinist, but since you are ignorant, I'll just indulge you."

 

[JM]

I did read the post. See I am one of those people who'd prefer if you came out and said straight up, "Well now, if you had read Augustine, you'd know he was a Calvinist, but since you are ignorant, I'll just indulge you."

Ahhh, I see. Augustine wasn't a Calvinist, neither was Calvin. Luther believed in the Doctrines of Grace as well and wasn't a Calvinist.

A quote:
Charles Haddon Spurgeon shockingly declared Calvinism is the gospel and Arminianism is heresy:

“And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else” (p. 172)


​

 

[wsgm]

Because the way you explained it, you didnt convey sufficiently the ideas of the doctrine. Now that I understand that the doctrine essentially says that man lacks anything good in him, I also reject that as well as all those other legalistic doctrines.

It seems that you cannot fully understand what Jesus means by the "yeast of the pharisees" Fundamentalism is utterly wrong. You have simply rejected one erroneous doctrine recorded in the bible (salvation by strict observance of the Torah) for another.

The pharisees and sadducees had no reason prior to the day when Jesus rebuked them to believe differently. Its recorded in Scriptures right?

They failed to see the main message of the bible: Love of neighbor and love of God.

Love is what its all about. When we love one another, we echo that superior love which God has for every little human bieng. God doesnt love some people more than he loves others. What if you decided to love one of your children and hate the other?

God family encompass ALL people, even the very least of them

"Whatever you do to the least of my people, that you did unto me"

Yes, God loves us, and we are to love God and every human being on the face of the earth. Absolutely. God has shown his great love to those He has saved, and He has told them to love others as a response to His love. We are to reflect God's love to us.

God loves the world, yes. But does He love each person in the world equally? No. If He loved all people equally, then either all people would burn in hell or all would be saved. In His good pleasure He chose some, not on the basis of what they would do, but on His perfect choice.

Rom 9:10-13
And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
​

Parents should not love one child and not another, but they are not God. He created all men and can choose some for one purpose and some for another. (See the rest of Romans 9).

About the Total Depravity thing: It is right out of Scripture, too.

Rom 3:9-18
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.",
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
​

I don't know exactly what you mean by "Fundamentalism," but if you are referring to an insistence on the inerrancy and validity of Scripture, then fundamentalism is utterly right. Scripture is the Word of God, and God cannot lie. ("it is impossible for God to lie" Heb 6:8; "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Num 23:19; "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16) If you mean something else by fundamentalism, please explain. Everything that I have said is soundly based on Scripture, and I believe I have given proof from Scripture for each point that I have made.

I do not think I fully understand your comment about the Pharisees and Sadducees or exactly how it relates to the rest of your argument. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadusees for their hypocrisy and for failing to recognize that the Old Testament pointed to Him, not because they believed the Bible.

 

[Victory_by_Jesus]

anyway were all friends here

 

[Abba]

God loves the world, yes. But does He love each person in the world equally? No. If He loved all people equally, then either all people would burn in hell or all would be saved. In His good pleasure He chose some, not on the basis of what they would do, but on His perfect choice.

God loves all people; but that is independent of their salvation. It is dependent on whether they choose to RETURN that love.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "Fundamentalism," but if you are referring to an insistence on the inerrancy and validity of Scripture, then fundamentalism is utterly right. Scripture is the Word of God, and God cannot lie. ("it is impossible for God to lie" Heb 6:8; "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Num 23:19; "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16) If you mean something else by fundamentalism, please explain. Everything that I have said is soundly based on Scripture, and I believe I have given proof from Scripture for each point that I have made.

I think legalism would better describe it.

 

[wsgm]

God loves all people; but that is independent of their salvation. It is dependent on whether they choose to RETURN that love.

God's love is the basis of Him saving us. If He did not love, then we would all burn. And He chose who would be saved. We "choose" Him only after and because He chose us. It is God's choice that determines salvation, not ours. It is all about God and His glory. Ultimately, He saves us so that He will receive glory. The benefits we receive are secondary to His glory.

Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Emphasis mine.)


​

I think legalism would better describe it.

How am I (or "Calvinists" in general) legalistic? We believe salvation is not based on a person's adherence to a set of rules or anything else that person can do on his own. Salvation by grace is the opposite of legalism. God is just; the Scriptures make that clear.

Rev. 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations!"
​

However, because of Christ's perfect sacrifice, salvation is a gift that He gives. There is nothing a person can do to earn it. There is no place for legalism.

 

[blessedbe]

God loves all people; but that is independent of their salvation. It is dependent on whether they choose to RETURN that love.

How can a person "choose" to return God's love? Can you point to any scripture that shows we have the ability to "choose" to return God's love? I see lots of scripture that shows we are unable in fact to choose God...that we are "slaves to sin"..etc etc


I think legalism would better describe it.

Abba, can you explain how "calvinism" is legalism?? I can understand the issues you are having with the dotrines here, I had a hard time accepting them myself; I just recently became "reformed", and these questions you are asking are the same ones I asked....I just don't understand the "legalism" thing, maybe you have different definition then we?

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

THE "FIVE POINTS" OF ARMINIANISM

1. Free-Will or Human Ability

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

2. Conditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

4. The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

5. Falling from Grace

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc.

All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

According to Arminianism:

Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.

 

[blessedbe]

What about those who God hardened? Or those God spiritually blinded? God has actively used people in this way. What chance do they have, if the start of faith is left to their own free will, yet God chooses to close their eyes and ears?

This also brings to mind 1 Corinthians 1:20-25

Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Whre is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

and verse 30 ...But by HIS doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD"

I'm not sure if this is appropriate in this forum, I'm not trying to debate, I'm just showing some of the reasons i came to be a 'calvinist'

 

[Gabriel]

It certainly isnt "just" for God to let others get a free ticket into heaven and let others perish because he never gave them a chance. And all because it contributes "to the glory of God." God isnt glorified by throwish people into ETERNAL TORMENT. It is saying that God loves to see people bieng tortured and bieng in anguish. It seems to me that this is what Satan would do, not God.

There is a difference from preaching salvation by grace, and preaching that there is nothing man can do for his salvation.

If you read Romans 9 you will see that there are those created for destruction, so that the mercy shown others will glorify God all the more.

Read Romans 9 for what it says. Try to put away what we have said and what you have been taught and read it for what it is...The Word of God.

 

[Gabriel]

Also, a reminder. This thread is against the rules of this forum. As Abba seems to be making a genuine attempt to discuss without conflict, I will let it continue. I would ask that all involved remain as polite and gracious as this has been so far.

 

[tigersnare]

I think legalism would better describe it.

Others are being very patient and gracious with your continued insults to what we truely consider to be the gospel and beliefs we hold dear.

I will try to continue in their manner.


Calvinism is about God, his grace, and whomever he decides to shed it on.

It is not about man, rules, rituals, or ceramonies. To call it legalistic is to show a complete misunderstanding of either Calvinism, or the word legalism.

 

[cygnusx1]

"The "Sovereign drug, Arminianism," which said the Jesuit, "we (i.e. we Papists) have planted" in England, did indeed bid fair "to purge our Protestant Church effectually. How merrily Popery and Arminianism, at that time, danced hand in hand, may be learned from Tindal: "The churches were adorned with paintings, images, altar-pieces, & etc. and, instead of communion tables, alters were set up, and bowings to them and the sacramental elements enjoined. The predestinarian doctrines were forbid, not only to be preached, but to be printed; and the Arminian sense of the Articles was encouraged and propagated."10 The Jesuit, therefore, did not exult without cause. The "sovereign drug," so lately "planted," did indeed take deep root downward, and bring forth fruit upward, under the cherishing auspices of Charles and Laud. Heylyn, too, acknowledges, that the state of things was truly described by another Jesuit of that age, who wrote: "Protestantism waxeth weary of itself. The doctrine (by the Arminians, who then sat at the helm) is altered in many things, for which their progenitors forsook the Church of Rome: as limbus patrum; prayer for the dead, and possibility of keeping God's commandments; and the accounting of Calvinism to be heresy at least, if not treason."

A M Toplady

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/AugustusToplady%20Arminianism.htm