What is a successful (good) creation for God?

Andrewn

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John 12:32 Jesus draws, invites, encourages all mankind to come to Him. Jesus NEVER said that He would forcibly drag all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike to Himself.
Jesus would not forcibly drag all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike to Himself. So what does He do when He is lifted up from the earth? Your answer is "Jesus invites, encourages all mankind to come to Him." I'll quote some verses with the verb "helko" rendered "draw" from the NT and the LXX, and the readers can draw their own conclusions:

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

Joh 21:6 And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.

Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.

Act 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and drew them into the marketplace to the authorities.

Act 21:30 And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and drew him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut.

Jam 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and draw you into the courts?

Deu 21:3 And the elders of the city that is nearest to the slain man shall take a heifer that has never been worked and that has not drawn a yoke.

2Sa 22:17 He reached down from on high and seized me, drew me out of the deep waters.

Psa 10:9 He lies in wait secretly, as a lion in his den; He lies in wait to catch the poor; He catches the poor when he draws him into his net.

Psa 119:131 I opened my mouth and drew breath, For I longed for Your commandments.


I can quote more verses. But it should be obvious from the above that "helko" does not mean "invite, encourage."
 
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public hermit

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I'll quote some verses with the verb "helko" rendered "draw" from the NT and the LXX, and the readers can draw their own conclusions

I see what you did there. :)
 
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Andrewn

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If you could "explain" Matt 21:23 you would have.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is a picture of the first judgment, immediately after death. The following quotations are from the Eastern Orthodox Catechism:

"Immediately after the common resurrection, will be the Last Judgment at which the final decision is taken as to who is worthy of the Kingdom of heaven and who should be sentenced to the torments of Hell. Before this event, however, there exists the possibility for the person in Hell to gain release; after the Last Judgment this possibility no longer remains."

"However, not everyone who during his earthly life did not meet Christ is deprived of the possibility of being liberated from Hell, for even in Hell the message of the Gospel is heard."

For more information:

 
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Der Alte

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Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is a picture of the first judgment, immediately after death. The following quotations are from the Eastern Orthodox Catechism:
"Immediately after the common resurrection, will be the Last Judgment at which the final decision is taken as to who is worthy of the Kingdom of heaven and who should be sentenced to the torments of Hell. Before this event, however, there exists the possibility for the person in Hell to gain release; after the Last Judgment this possibility no longer remains."
"However, not everyone who during his earthly life did not meet Christ is deprived of the possibility of being liberated from Hell, for even in Hell the message of the Gospel is heard."
For more information:
First the "the Eastern Orthodox Catechism:" is not scripture. Jesus, Himself, said NOT everyone who says unto Him, Lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. No explanation required. That refutes the UR claim everybody will be saved.
Matt 7 Vs. 22 Jesus says, "Many will say to me in that day," "That day" is the day of judgement. There ain't no salvation after that.
 
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Der Alte

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Jesus would not forcibly drag all mankind, righteous and unrighteous, alike to Himself. So what does He do when He is lifted up from the earth? Your answer is "Jesus invites, encourages all mankind to come to Him." I'll quote some verses with the verb "helko" rendered "draw" from the NT and the LXX, and the readers can draw their own conclusions:
Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
Joh 21:6 And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken.
Act 16:19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and drew them into the marketplace to the authorities.
Act 21:30 And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and drew him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut.
Jam 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and draw you into the courts?
Deu 21:3 And the elders of the city that is nearest to the slain man shall take a heifer that has never been worked and that has not drawn a yoke.
2Sa 22:17 He reached down from on high and seized me, drew me out of the deep waters.
Psa 10:9 He lies in wait secretly, as a lion in his den; He lies in wait to catch the poor; He catches the poor when he draws him into his net.
Psa 119:131 I opened my mouth and drew breath, For I longed for Your commandments.
I can quote more verses. But it should be obvious from the above that "helko" does not mean "invite, encourage."
You are mixing apples and oranges. The O.T. wasn't written in Greek so the O.T. examples are irrelevant. Do people have the freedom of choice to willingly choose or reject Jesus or does Jesus forcibly, drag those who reject Him to Himself and force them to be His disciples? You can't have it both ways.
 
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Andrewn

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First the "the Eastern Orthodox Catechism:" is not scripture.
The EO teaching is based on Scripture:

"In particular, St Peter speaks of Christ’s descent into Hell and His preaching there to those sinners who were drowned in the waters of the Flood: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...’ (1 Pet.3:18-21)."

Does this mean people do not have to accept Christ in this life and lead godly lives? Of course, not. This teaching only gives hope in God's mercy to people anxious about what may happen to their unsaved friends and family. We still need to approach non-Christians, but we don't have to doubt God's love and mercy.

Do people have the freedom of choice to willingly choose or reject Jesus or does Jesus forcibly, drag those who reject Him to Himself and force them to be His disciples? You can't have it both ways.
I believe in free choice. But choosing freely needs sufficient data to make the right decision. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. Others need to see more. Unfortunately, some don't have the mental capacity in this life. God does not force belief but neither does He stop trying to convince.
 
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Der Alte

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The EO teaching is based on Scripture:
"In particular, St Peter speaks of Christ’s descent into Hell and His preaching there to those sinners who were drowned in the waters of the Flood: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...’ (1 Pet.3:18-21)."
Does this mean that I will teach people that they do not have to accept Christ in this life and live godly lives? Of course, not. This teaching only gives hope in God's mercy to people who are extremely anxious about what may happen to their unsaved friends and family. We still need to approach non-Christians, but we don't have to doubt God's love and mercy.
I definitely believe in free choice. But choose freely needs sufficient data to make the right decision. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. Others need to see more. Some don't have the mental capacity to believe in this life.
I do not wish to get into a discussion about the EO teaching but I happen to believe that the grave/Hades is never called "prison" and prison is never called the grave/hades.
If the purpose of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was for their salvation, then it was a failure only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family, and they were alive when they were saved, not in prison not dead.
If living people have the freedom to accept or reject Jesus, while they are alive who would Jesus be forcibly dragging to Himself in John 12:32 and does Jesus then force them to be His disciples
? If a person is convinced against their will, they are of the same opinion still.
 
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Andrewn

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I happen to believe that the grave/Hades is never called "prison" and prison is never called the grave/hades.
Why do you write "grave/hades?" If you believe that hades is the grave then of course it is not the spirit prison. Sure there are verses in the OT where sheol is equivalent w/ the grave. But the NT does not equate Hades w/ the grave.

If the purpose of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison was for their salvation, then it was a failure only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family, and they were alive when they were saved, not in prison not dead.
As a partial Calvinist, you probably believe that Christ descended to the spirit prison in humiliation and that He never freed any prisoners. For you, the only spirits that were saved in the days of Noah are the 8 people who boarded the ark. I will not be able to convince you otherwise. So I will just refer to the Wikipedia article about the subject:


If living people have the freedom to accept or reject Jesus, while they are alive who would Jesus be forcibly dragging to Himself in John 12:32 and does Jesus then force them to be His disciples? If a person is convinced against their will, they are of the same opinion still.
God created people with a free will and will never drag them against their will. God can only convince people.
 
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Der Alte

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Why do you write "grave/hades?" If you believe that hades is the grave then of course it is not the spirit prison. Sure there are verses in the OT where sheol is equivalent w/ the grave. But the NT does not equate Hades w/ the grave.
As a partial Calvinist, you probably believe that Christ descended to the spirit prison in humiliation and that He never freed any prisoners. For you, the only spirits that were saved in the days of Noah are the 8 people who boarded the ark. I will not be able to convince you otherwise. So I will just refer to the Wikipedia article about the subject:
God created people with a free will and will never drag them against their will. God can only convince people.
You have got to be kidding! Wiki is about as reliable as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Anybody can post, change, delete anything without review. In the 225 B.C. LXX Sheol was written as hades.
I am not a partial anything. Right, you can't convince me of anything that is not scriptural.
1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which [the Spirit vs. 18] also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​
This passage says only eight souls were saved following Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison.
Since God created people with a free will who would Jesus be dragging to Himself in John 12:32?
 
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Der Alte

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Did you forget you wrote that the O.T. wasn't written in Greek so the LXX examples are irrelevant :)?
First you have to show that the Hebrew "draw" was translated "helko" in the LXX. Can you do that? Also, I might have a hole card.
 
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Andrewn

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First you have to show that the Hebrew "draw" was translated "helko" in the LXX. Can you do that?
This is exactly what I did in message #101.
This passage says only eight souls were saved following Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison.
No, the passage says that only eight souls were saved before Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison.

1 Peter 3:18-20 Peshitta in Plain English

18Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.
19And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol,
20These who from the first were not convinced in the days of Noah when the long-suffering of God commanded that there would be an ark, upon the hope of their repentance, and only eight souls entered it and were kept alive by water.

You have got to be kidding! Wiki is about as reliable as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Anybody can post, change, delete anything without review.
Here are other references if you're interested:


 
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Der Alte

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This is exactly what I did in message #101.
No, the passage says that only eight souls were saved before Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison.
1 Peter 3:18-20 Peshitta in Plain English
18Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.
19And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol,
20These who from the first were not convinced in the days of Noah when the long-suffering of God commanded that there would be an ark, upon the hope of their repentance, and only eight souls entered it and were kept alive by water.
Here are other references if you're interested:
Post #101 you didn't quote the Greek. My hole card. Scholars don't rely on translation Greek. In the recognized manuscripts which does not include the Peshitta, it reads as I quoted.
I suppose some people can search around until they find something, somewhere that appears to support their assumptions/presuppositions.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​
 
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Andrewn

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In the recognized manuscripts which does not include the Peshitta, it reads as I quoted.
All English translations agree that eight souls were saved before Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison. I only quoted a translation of the Peshitta because it rendered the prison into "sheol." I thought you'd like this :).
 
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Der Alte

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All English translations agree that eight souls were saved before Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison. I only quoted a translation of the Peshitta because it rendered the prison into "sheol." I thought you'd like this :).
Please explain to me how you get "All English translations agree that eight souls were saved before Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison?"
 
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Andrewn

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Please explain to me how you get "All English translations agree that eight souls were saved before Jesus' preaching to the spirits in prison?"
For example, here is your favorite Eastern Orthodox Bible:

1Pe 3:20 In the past, those had been disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In this ark, a few, (that is eight souls,) were saved through water.

Only eight people were saved through water in the days of Noah. And, like Calvin, you do not believe that anyone else was saved through Christ's preaching in the spirit prison. But here are other references to Christ's descent and preaching in Hades:

1P2 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Eph 4:8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, though I was dead. Look! I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


Calvin was not convinced by these verses, which is unfortunate as they give hope that God's love continues after death.
 
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Mark Quayle

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At the consummation of all things, what does success look like for God's creation? We have three options that have been believed by various Christians throughout the history of Christian faith.

Eternal life/Eternal damnation (Augustine): In this scenario, God succeeds in saving some rational souls for eternal life through Christ. However, God does not eliminate evil in all but perpetuates it by preserving those who willfully reject God in eternal torment. Conclusion: Failure since sin and evil, found in those rational souls that reject their ultimate good, persists for all eternity by God's will.

Eternal life/Annihilation (Arnobius of Sicca): In this scenario, God succeeds in saving some for eternal life through Christ and eliminating evil in rational souls. However, this elimination of evil includes the annihilation of some rational souls who willfully reject their ultimate good. Conclusion: Partial success since the result is the elimination of evil in rational souls but God loses some of God's good creation by destroying it.

Eternal life/Universal restoration (Gregory of Nyssa): In this scenario, God succeeds in saving all for eternal life through Christ. Some are saved in this life and others in the age to come through the remedial punishment of divine love until all rational souls reject sin and evil, willfully bending the knee and confessing Christ as Lord, after which Christ will hand the consummated kingdom over and God will be all in all. Conclusion: Complete success since God succeeds in eliminating all evil in all rational souls and saving all of God's good creation.

Note: It should be noted that Nyssa (the Pillar of Orthodoxy and Father of Fathers) taught the complete and absolute elimination of evil through reconciliation in Christ without destroying good. "Evil must necessarily be eliminated, absolutely and in every respect, once and for all" (On the Soul and Resurrection 101).

"For, thanks to all the respects in which Christ has mixed with humanity, having passed through all that is proper to the human nature, birth, nourishment, growth, and having gone as far as the trial of death, he has accomplished all the tasks I have mentioned, both liberating the human being from evil and healing even the inventor of evilness." (Great Catechetical Oration 26).

It seems clear that divine success at the consummation can only be the universal restoration of all. Anything short of that ranges from failure to partial success. Eternal damnation means that God wilfully perpetuates evil for eternity. Annihilation means God loses some of God's good creation. Do you agree or disagree?
What you wrote, and what you quote Nyssa to say, seem to me to assume a very temporal, human, POV. While the seminal act of God, in Christ's life, death and resurrection definitely demonstrates that this temporal life, though a vapor, is nevertheless real, I can't help but think on the question of how God sees this matter (as though we can say he considers it separately from other matters). I don't like arguments based on what we say or what we think, and particularly on how we say and think. Some of the cosmological arguments to me sound this way, and to me at best can only prove some conclusion of "what we must (or should) say or think". They assume substance to our thinking.

We necessarily think that some action within this temporal frame completed within this temporal frame, means "no more action within this temporal frame", and rightly so, but "after", or maybe I should say, "outside of", this temporal frame, a completed action doesn't necessarily follow that use regardless of the fact that it was done within the temporal frame.

The reality of what happened within this temporal 'remains' truth —that it did happen— even after this temporal is 'over with'. And certainly, the everlasting Word of God that is of such immanence and effect, and so valuable and pure, during this temporal, is not discarded when this temporal is 'over with' —in fact, there is every reason to say that it is totally relevant, in Heaven, in a way we could not have imagined.

But these facts don't render our viewpoint valid, during this temporal life, particularly as applies to the 'after'life.

So: When we say that "Evil must necessarily be eliminated, absolutely and in every respect, once and for all", we can only say it means or works out how WE mean it, and that, only during this temporal realm. —I don't know if you were in on one of the threads concerning the language in Heaven. To my mind, if God speaking brought creation into reality, there may be reason to think that in Heaven, a word no longer is a substitute or even a representation of the actual thing, but the thing, the fact, itself.

Now I am NOT saying that evil then is allowed to exist or maintained in existence, 'after' this temporal. Remember that we can surely say that God exists. But we have no comprehension of what such a word means when we apply it to God. We think we know what little WE mean* by it, but we don't know what it means.

What I AM saying is that when a fact is fact, as caused by God, we have no way to know what 'undone' means in his reality. Nor what 'restored' or even 'death' is. We know evil opposes him, and we have vague notions of the other things, but we don't know. True logic is true. But our logic is presumptuous on a child's level.

*See CS Lewis', from Till We Have Faces —"...the babble we think we mean..."
 
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Mark Quayle

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You are mixing apples and oranges. The O.T. wasn't written in Greek so the O.T. examples are irrelevant. Do people have the freedom of choice to willingly choose or reject Jesus or does Jesus forcibly, drag those who reject Him to Himself and force them to be His disciples? You can't have it both ways.
Or maybe the question is bogus, since neither is the case with regeneration.
 
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For example, here is your favorite Eastern Orthodox Bible:
1Pe 3:20 In the past, those had been disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In this ark, a few, (that is eight souls,) were saved through water.
Only eight people were saved through water in the days of Noah. And, like Calvin, you do not believe that anyone else was saved through Christ's preaching in the spirit prison. But here are other references to Christ's descent and preaching in Hades:
1P2 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
Eph 4:8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, though I was dead. Look! I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Calvin was not convinced by these verses, which is unfortunate as they give hope that God's love continues after death.
Please show me where it is recorded that other than Noah and his family in 1 Pet 3 more were saved?
1 Pet 4:6 How do the dead live in the spirit?
Hope that God's love continues after death? I am not aware of any scripture which clearly shows that.
JPS Proverbs 24:20
(20)
For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12)
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
(13)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Proverbs 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​
 
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Andrewn

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Hope that God's love continues after death? I am not aware of any scripture which clearly shows that.
I'm not sure how the verses you quoted are related to the discussion. Regarding hope of salvation after death, it seems to be a presupposition that is all over Romans 11. Here are a few examples but it is best to read the whole chapter for context:

12 Now if their transgression leads to riches for the world, and their loss riches for the Gentiles, then how much more their fullness!

Some of the Jews who were alive in Paul's time were saved through his preaching (and the preaching of others)as we see in verses 5, 7, 14. But how are all the Jews, who are alive in Paul's time, saved?

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you be wise in your own estimation, for a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

It is not only the fullness of the Jews but also the fullness of the Gentiles that will come in. But not all the Jews and Gentiles alive in Paul's time were saved. Does Paul imply there is hope for them after death?

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will remove ungodliness from Jacob”;

After all the Gentiles are saved, all Jews who were alive in Paul's time will also be saved. Are they saved after death?

32 For God has imprisoned them all in disobedience, so that He might be merciful to all.

God will have mercy on all, Jews and Gentiles. Were all people alive in Paul's time saved before or after death?
 
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