What is a soul?

[TrustAndObey]

WHY AREN'T THEY HAPPY AND PLAYING HARPS????

Because they were too restless and preoccupied with revenge to enjoy heaven, Honor.

Keep up!

 

[TrustAndObey]

"Under the Alter" in Rabbinic literature of that day signified being close to God. It wasn't like someone lifted up a box and put things under the box. It was symbolism or word immagery used to describe a literal state of being.

And so it begins...

Are you paraphrasing? If so, from what literature?

I don't let my children get away with "because I said so" and they don't let me get by with it either.

Read it again T.A.O. "to the spirits OF righteous men made perfect". The assembly includes countless angels.

Sorry. That isn't in verse 22, which is what you told me to read (but for the record, I read the whole chapter).

To the SPIRITS of men made perfect. Beautiful. Pneuma.

Pnemas were not what John saw in Revelation. John saw psuche.

You have a hang-up thinking spirit and soul are the same thing, and they're just not.

No, the Scripture says God will bring with Him those who
are sleeping in Jesus. 1 Thess 4,14

Well, let's look at those verses:

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Pythons, do you not see that God will bring Jesus AND those that sleep back up to heaven to be with Him (God the Father)? Otherwise they're sleeping in heaven. What enjoyment is that?

Read the verses carefully and you'll see your idea just does not fit with what they say.

According to Paul it is far better to be with Christ then it is to "be in the body". The "Reward" is the resurrection body because that is equated with eternal life whereas the soul apart from the body is merely an existence compared to it.

Paraphrasing again?

So John the Revelator saw "presences" under the altar?

There is no soul apart from the body Pythons. Every one of those verses I quoted earlier in this thread PROVE that, numerous times.

It would have been a literal beast John witnessed which represented or signified something else.

But what he saw under the altar couldn't be anything else but literal "presences?"

Scripture is very definitive about a soul, and without breath (spriit), a soul is just a dead body.

No, not one.

Are you being serious?

So a "presence" can eat blood, take a bath, touch objects, be purchased, be eaten, destroyed by a sword, go down in the grave, etc etc etc.???

Did you READ any of the verses I posted Pythons?

I'm going to let you reasearch this until your next post and if you want to go with what you just said then I'll have my counter for you.

I've researched it before. You keep quoting verses about the spirit and applying the word "soul" to them.

They are not the same thing.

 

[RND]

The soul that is 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' wouldn't have a body/legs/feet/mouths/brains/etc. to walk, talk, think, etc. SDAism is STUCK with a definition of the soul as being simply 'breath'.

Spirit.

It's difficult to think outside that small box. Using a fair amount of objectivity (removing the SDA/EGW lens that SDA's view the universe through) should help in at least making strides in understanding what the Bible ACTUALLY says (or doesn't say) about the soul. The Bible is NOT black and white on this subject, and it's NOT salvic.

You know, for 20 years I believed that people did not exist outside of death....long before I became an Adventist.

 

[Pythons]

And so it begins...

Are you paraphrasing? If so, from what literature?

I don't let my children get away with "because I said so" and they don't let me get by with it either.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Kethuboth:

"Whoever is buried in the Land of Israel is deemed to be buried under the altar, since in respect of the latter it is written in Scripture, At altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and in respect of the former, it is written in Scripture, and his laud doth make expiation for his people". www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/index.html

To claim that St. John, when he says, 'souls under the alter' means souls traped under a box and that it is figurative language indicating the state of the soul to be dead at worse or at best the souls of those who were resurrected and went into Jerusalem after the Resurrection of the Lord can only be through ignorance of the historical context at the time the Apocaylypse was put on paper. Check any commentary on Revelation (except for JW and SDA commentaries) and they will all say something similar or the same thing.

Sorry. That isn't in verse 22, which is what you told me to read (but for the record, I read the whole chapter).

To the SPIRITS of men made perfect. Beautiful. Pneuma.

Pnemas were not what John saw in Revelation. John saw psuche.

You have a hang-up thinking spirit and soul are the same thing, and they're just not.

Ok, you have a strongs so you know Pneuma is also applied to "evil spirits" / "spirts of prophets are subject to the control of prophets" 1 Cor 14,22 / God and angels John 4,24 and Hebrews 1,14. I'm afraid the hang up isn't mine, as Strong's clearly shows you. The only "scholars" who suggest such a thing are Adventist and JW.

Well, let's look at those verses:

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Pythons, do you not see that God will bring Jesus AND those that sleep back up to heaven to be with Him (God the Father)? Otherwise they're sleeping in heaven. What enjoyment is that?

No, I don't see it that way. The events in V. 13,14 & 15 are previous to the events in v. 16 & 17 and God is coming AKA the Second Coming of Christ. You are saying everyone heads back to heaven? Where do you get that?

Paraphrasing again?

So John the Revelator saw "presences" under the altar?

There is no soul apart from the body Pythons. Every one of those verses I quoted earlier in this thread PROVE that, numerous times.

I've answered every one of your 'proofs' and am still waiting on your to answer them.

But what he saw under the altar couldn't be anything else but literal "presences?"

How do you figure? What is a presence?

Scripture is very definitive about a soul, and without breath (spriit), a soul is just a dead body.

You have a strong's. Feel free to use it.

Are you being serious?

So a "presence" can eat blood, take a bath, touch objects, be purchased, be eaten, destroyed by a sword, go down in the grave, etc etc etc.???

Did you READ any of the verses I posted Pythons?



I've researched it before. You keep quoting verses about the spirit and applying the word "soul" to them.

They are not the same thing.

Yes, I've read every one of them. You continue to boast about all the verses you cited but refrained from answering any of my counters to why you are wrong. I think you will be doing good if you can point me to the part of the Bible that says "God will take the Resurrected and alive back to heaven".

 

[TrustAndObey]

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Kethuboth:

"Whoever is buried in the Land of Israel is deemed to be buried under the altar, since in respect of the latter it is written in Scripture, At altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and in respect of the former, it is written in Scripture, and his laud doth make expiation for his people". www.come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/index.html

In the future, could you point out which chapter I’m supposed to be looking in? I did a search on the word altar and didn’t get any hits on the first page so I have no idea where I’m supposed to be looking.

Do you really think that would apply here that EVERYONE buried in the land of Israel would be under the altar in the heavenly sanctuary?

To claim that St. John, when he says, 'souls under the alter' means souls traped under a box and that it is figurative language indicating the state of the soul to be dead at worse or at best the souls of those who were resurrected and went into Jerusalem after the Resurrection of the Lord can only be through ignorance of the historical context at the time the Apocaylypse was put on paper. Check any commentary on Revelation (except for JW and SDA commentaries) and they will all say something similar or the same thing.

Pythons, you’re the one that wants this verse in Revelation to be literal and you kept bringing up the heavenly sanctuary. If it’s literal, then there are literally souls under the literal altar because John was seeing the literal sanctuary. If you want to insist on it being literal, then it has to be uniformly so.

Ok, you have a strongs so you know Pneuma is also applied to "evil spirits" / "spirts of prophets are subject to the control of prophets" 1 Cor 14,22 / God and angels John 4,24 and Hebrews 1,14. I'm afraid the hang up isn't mine, as Strong's clearly shows you. The only "scholars" who suggest such a thing are Adventist and JW.

John didn’t see pneumas though Pythons, he saw souls (psuche). He saw angels and specifically mentions them separately in other verses, so we know the “angel” or “spirit” definition you’re trying to apply to Rev 6:9 doesn’t apply at all.

I asked that Adventism be kept out of our conversation, but since you’re unable to do that and want to mock our scholars, would you like for me to point you to some NON-Adventist and NON-JW scholars that believe that the soul and spirit are completely different things? The Catholic church teaches “immortality of the SOUL” and in you trying to defend that, you have to twist a whole lot of verses about the spirit.

No, I don't see it that way. The events in V. 13,14 & 15 are previous to the events in v. 16 & 17 and God is coming AKA the Second Coming of Christ. You are saying everyone heads back to heaven? Where do you get that?

I get it from scripture oddly enough. I’m crazy like that.

Jesus promises that He went to prepare a place for us. If the righteous that are still alive when He returns aren’t taken back up to heaven, when do THEY get to enjoy the promise/gift of heaven that He prepared for us? Why are they meeting Him in the air? When the new city comes down out of heaven, WHO is in it?

I've answered every one of your 'proofs' and am still waiting on your to answer them.

No you haven’t. You have yet to explain to me why an “existence” can take a bath, eat blood, be destroyed, etc etc

How do you figure? What is a presence?

Right here, a quote from you:

According to Paul it is far better to be with Christ then it is to "be in the body". The "Reward" is the resurrection body because that is equated with eternal life whereas the soul apart from the body is merely an existence compared to it.

An “existence” is some sort of presence. So John could LITERALLY see “existences” or presences under the altar in Revelation 6:9? Is that what you’re contending?

You have a strong's. Feel free to use it.

I have, and so did RC. A soul is a breathing creature. If they don’t have a spirit they are a corpse. It doesn’t get any simpler than that really.

Yes, I've read every one of them. You continue to boast about all the verses you cited but refrained from answering any of my counters to why you are wrong. I think you will be doing good if you can point me to the part of the Bible that says "God will take the Resurrected and alive back to heaven".

First of all, I’ve never boasted about citing scripture. I didn’t write the verses and can take NO credit for gathering what the Lord has already provided for us.

Secondly, I’ve been ridiculed endlessly for my method of research, even though I agree with the Strong’s definition RC posted using the silly method that I did.

If you’re going to apply a foreign definition (something NOT found in scripture) of what the soul is, then you need to explain to me how a soul can take a bath, eat food, be destroyed, and get married.

I answered the “heaven” part earlier in my post.

 

[TrustAndObey]

No, I don't see it that way. The events in V. 13,14 & 15 are previous to the events in v. 16 & 17 and God is coming AKA the Second Coming of Christ. You are saying everyone heads back to heaven? Where do you get that?

If those that are sleeping come down from heaven with Jesus, can you explain to me how they would enjoy heaven while they are asleep?

 

[RND]

[/I]

If those that are sleeping come down from heaven with Jesus, can you explain to me how they would enjoy heaven while they are asleep?

That waz fuuny!

It always begs the question, when talking to evangelicals especially, why do we float away to Heaven when we die, but come back to earth for our glorified bodies?

Wouldn't just the opposite seem more likely?

 

[RND]

According to Paul it is far better to be with Christ then it is to "be in the body".

I agree! When does Paul say this happens?

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul says this happens....

1) In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye

2) At the 'last trump'

 

[TrustAndObey]

That waz fuuny!

Even the people that don't like me on here usually appreciate that I do have a sense of humor. You either love me or you love me. HA!

It always begs the question, when talking to evangelicals especially, why do we float away to Heaven when we die, but come back to earth for our glorified bodies?

Wouldn't just the opposite seem more likely?

Because asleep doesn't really mean asleep and dead doesn't really mean dead.

I miss my little smiley where the guy bangs his smiley head against the wall. It came in handy.

<smooches>

 

[sentipente]

[/i]

If those that are sleeping come down from heaven with Jesus, can you explain to me how they would enjoy heaven while they are asleep?

You are so intent on making fun of the other party that you fail to see how the flaw in your comprehension. This entire discussion is a futile effort.

 

[Pythons]

You are so intent on making fun of the other party that you fail to see how the flaw in your comprehension. This entire discussion is a futile effort.

God willing I hope to remedy that...

 

[Pythons]

In the future, could you point out which chapter I&#8217;m supposed to be looking in? I did a search on the word altar and didn&#8217;t get any hits on the first page so I have no idea where I&#8217;m supposed to be looking

#111, sorry about that, that&#8217;s what I get for sneaking this out at work in a rush.

Do you really think that would apply here that EVERYONE buried in the land of Israel would be under the altar in the heavenly sanctuary?

T.A.O., its figurative speech. &#8220;Under the Altar&#8221; indicated proximity and the Altar was inside Jerusalem so &#8220;the souls&#8221; were in the Holy City.

Pythons, you&#8217;re the one that wants this verse in Revelation to be literal and you kept bringing up the heavenly sanctuary. If it&#8217;s literal, then there are literally souls under the literal altar because John was seeing the literal sanctuary. If you want to insist on it being literal, then it has to be uniformly so.

I do not need this verse to be literal to defend my position while your article of faith requires you do. I was just insuring we closed that loophole should you suggest this Scripture was symbolic. Apply what you just said to &#8220;we are in Christ&#8221; and &#8220;Christ is in us&#8221;. If we are Christian&#8217;s in good standing, is Christ only &#8220;symbolically&#8221; in us, or is He &#8220;really in us&#8221; this is plainly figurative speech to describe a literal reality.

John didn&#8217;t see pneumas though Pythons, he saw souls (psuche). He saw angels and specifically mentions them separately in other verses, so we know the &#8220;angel&#8221; or &#8220;spirit&#8221; definition you&#8217;re trying to apply to Rev 6:9 doesn&#8217;t apply at all.

Pneuma (s)= (spirit) = human soul that has left the body
Psuche (s) = (Soul) = the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death.

You have a Strong&#8217;s, the context determines the meaning of the word. If you need me to detail how to use a Strong&#8217;s I would be happy to show you.

I asked that Adventism be kept out of our conversation, but since you&#8217;re unable to do that and want to mock our scholars, would you like for me to point you to some NON-Adventist and NON-JW scholars that believe that the soul and spirit are completely different things? The Catholic church teaches &#8220;immortality of the SOUL&#8221; and in you trying to defend that, you have to twist a whole lot of verses about the spirit.

I have no doubt of your sincerity T.A.O. You are asserting the meaning is,

There is no soul apart from the body Pythons. Every one of those verses I quoted earlier in this thread PROVE that, numerous times.

What you&#8217;ve done is selectively listed verses proving something that you, me and every Biblical lexicon and Scripture concordance already agree with. I have no beef with the Scriptures you&#8217;ve quoted. You know what the issue is and it would serve us as well as the readers of this thread if you started to address them. I already believe the word &#8216;soul&#8217; or &#8216;spirit&#8217; can mean a living person so I&#8217;m not twisting anything. To insist that&#8217;s all it means is Scripture twisting that only Sadducees (and likeminded &#8216;scholars&#8217 can support. How about listing some names of Non-SDA and Non-JW scholars that assert that &#8220;there is no soul apart from the body&#8221;.

No you haven&#8217;t. You have yet to explain to me why an &#8220;existence&#8221; can take a bath, eat blood, be destroyed, etc etc

It&#8217;s very simple, if the context determines the rendered meaning is a living person than because living people eat, drink, take baths and die that&#8217;s how it works. What you&#8217;ve done is correctly taken the context of a soul equating to a living person then INCORRECTLY applied that context to every other text to generate your sincere belief &#8220;that there is no soul outside the body&#8221;. This is just like a certain friend you have trying to tell me the 10 Commandments are never called a Testimony when they were specifically called that in the Bible, and to add injury to insult, were kept in, &#8220;The Ark of the Testimony&#8221;.

According to Paul it is far better to be with Christ then it is to "be in the body". The "Reward" is the resurrection body because that is equated with eternal life whereas the soul apart from the body is merely an existence compared to it.

An &#8220;existence&#8221; is some sort of presence. So John could LITERALLY see &#8220;existences&#8221; or presences under the altar in Revelation 6:9? Is that what you&#8217;re contending?

No, what John literally witnessed was the literal City of God, the New Jerusalem. It&#8217;s the same one Paul described,

&#8220;You have come (NOT WILL COME) to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the City of the Living God. You have come (NOT WILL COME) to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly (BREAK), to the Church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come (NOT WILL COME) to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel&#8221;. Hebrews 12,22

This describes the believer, in the here and now , HAS come to the Literal City of God which is inhabited by God the Father, Jesus, angels and the spirits of righteous men. Previously, these &#8220;spirits&#8221; were in the Bosom of Abraham and those same spirits were moved into the City of God so that where Jesus was, the spirits of just men made perfect would be.

St John did not view a &#8216;symbolic city&#8217; descending from heaven, he was allowed to see into the future when the Holy City of God comes from where it currently is to earth. A spirit within the context of Apocalypse 6, 10 was associated with being &#8220;naked&#8221; so that is why you read in v. 10 that they were all given white robes and told to wait until God was ready to pronounce HIS Judgment. You can call it whatever you want T.A.O. , provided you realize that these Spirits or &#8220;Souls&#8221; described in the Apocalypse are not resurrected people because of that little word "OF", as in 'souls of those righetous'

I have, and so did RC. A soul is a breathing creature. If they don&#8217;t have a spirit they are a corpse. It doesn&#8217;t get any simpler than that really.

Indeed you and RND have said that and by saying that destroy your own theology and supporting argumentation for anything you believe where the first definition of the word becomes the final and only definition of the word for the rest of the Bible. You&#8217;ve done a very good job of making this clear and be certain ,I will certainly remind you of this when (if you allow) a discussion into the Investigative judgment. I&#8217;m sure you can already see what your rule has done to the seventh day Sabbath.

First of all, I&#8217;ve never boasted about citing scripture. I didn&#8217;t write the verses and can take NO credit for gathering what the Lord has already provided for us.

Secondly, I&#8217;ve been ridiculed endlessly for my method of research, even though I agree with the Strong&#8217;s definition RC posted using the silly method that I did.

If you&#8217;re going to apply a foreign definition (something NOT found in scripture) of what the soul is, then you need to explain to me how a soul can take a bath, eat food, be destroyed, and get married.

I answered the &#8220;heaven&#8221; part earlier in my post.

You&#8217;ve posted Scripture that proves the soul in those cases equates to a living person and their actions and emotions and I don&#8217;t know of anyone who will say that what you said those Scriptures mean isn&#8217;t what they mean. You&#8217;ve taken indecent liberties with the other Scriptures and without addressing counterpoints brought to your attention believe you&#8217;ve put forth the truth.

Post # 231

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If souls of saints are in heaven, and those verses in Revelation are literal, I wonder if it's these guys?

You can&#8217;t even say it, can you&#8230; &#8220;If souls OF saints&#8221; are in heaven, and those verses in Revelation are literal, I wonder if it&#8217;s these guys?&#8221; LOL!

I saw under the altar THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN KILLED&#8221; (Bible)
Vs.
I saw under the alter those souls who had been killed (Trust AndObey)

 

[TrustAndObey]

Pythons, I didn't get an e-mail that you replied to this thread again so I apologize for not responding sooner. I'm off of Spring Break and have a lot to do this AM, but I will get back with you later.

 

[Pythons]

Pythons, I didn't get an e-mail that you replied to this thread again so I apologize for not responding sooner. I'm off of Spring Break and have a lot to do this AM, but I will get back with you later.

Be safe and have fun on vacation

 

[Jimlarmore]

Let's take a good look at what Jesus says about something.

John 14:1-3
Let not your heat be troubled , ye believe in God believe also in me. In My Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you and if I go to prepare a place for you I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF THAT WHERE I AM THERE YE MAY BE ALSO.

Look at the bolded parts of these verses. First off Jesus said He was going to prepare a place of His disciples in His Father's house. Then He said that He would come again and receive us unto Himself that where He was there we may be also.

So let's make some key observations here.

1. Going to heaven is directly tied into the second coming.

Christ did NOT say that when you die your soul would go to heaven and He would bring it back to unite that soul with the body. In the book of John Christ said many times that He would raise the faithful up at the last day. He also said that all who are in the grave would hear His voice and come forth. If they were already in heaven this wouldn't make any sense because they would already be there and wouldn't need to come forth.

2. Christ is preparing heaven for a future event of coming to save/get/redeem the faithful. When He said I will come again He was promising to reward and get His disciples at that future event not at their death. Rev 22:12 makes it very clear that when Christ comes His reward is with Him. If the souls were already in heaven they would be rewarded at death not at His second coming.

These are just a few things to consider. I got a lot more.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm off vacation and back in school. I was on Spring Break last week. This has been a really tough semester, and I appreciate the well wishes!

#111, sorry about that, that&#8217;s what I get for sneaking this out at work in a rush.

No worries. Most of the time I&#8217;m posting with tons of distractions, not unlike now, so I totally understand.

T.A.O., its figurative speech. &#8220;Under the Altar&#8221; indicated proximity and the Altar was inside Jerusalem so &#8220;the souls&#8221; were in the Holy City.

I totally get that it&#8217;s figurative. I don&#8217;t base my beliefs on figurative though.

I do not need this verse to be literal to defend my position while your article of faith requires you do. I was just insuring we closed that loophole should you suggest this Scripture was symbolic. Apply what you just said to &#8220;we are in Christ&#8221; and &#8220;Christ is in us&#8221;. If we are Christian&#8217;s in good standing, is Christ only &#8220;symbolically&#8221; in us, or is He &#8220;really in us&#8221; this is plainly figurative speech to describe a literal reality.

I believe John did indeed see the heavenly sanctuary and souls under the altar, Pythons. However, I also believe he did indeed see a ten-headed beast as well. Both are symbolic of something else. Daniel was seeing a literal statue, but that statue was symbolic of something else, agreed?

Revelation is obviously prophetic since it&#8217;s a vision of the Lord&#8217;s Day, the day our Lord returns&#8230;.which hasn&#8217;t happened yet.

Pneuma (s)= (spirit) = human soul that has left the body

Psuche (s) = (Soul) = the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death.

Here&#8217;s the problem with &#8220;religious&#8221; debates and people only looking at one side of a coin. There are a whole lot of definitions listed in Strong&#8217;s for the word spirit, but you picked the one that fits your theology.

I have to apply different definitions to different verses, because obviously they aren&#8217;t all talking about the same thing. Some of the verses I listed clearly referred to living people, some to dead people, some to animals, etc.

You have a Strong&#8217;s, the context determines the meaning of the word. If you need me to detail how to use a Strong&#8217;s I would be happy to show you.

That&#8217;s very nice of you. I&#8217;m glad you brought this up because I&#8217;ve been dying to talk to someone (for real) who is an expert on the Strong&#8217;s concordance.

I actually don&#8217;t use the Strong&#8217;s concordance very often, and when I do, it&#8217;s usually just for comparisons. I just happened to agree with the definitions that RC posted for the soul because I felt they accurately described what anyone can read for themselves in scripture.

Are there some outside sources that Dr. Strong may have relied on for his interpretations of words? For instance, if Dr. Strong referred to Sunday as the &#8220;Lord&#8217;s Day&#8221;, where would he get that idea? It certainly wouldn&#8217;t be from scripture, right, since there&#8217;s only one verse in the entire bible that uses the term &#8220;Lord&#8217;s day&#8221;&#8230;and it doesn&#8217;t talk about a day of the week, but of an event&#8212;the great day of our Lord&#8217;s return.

Also..&#8230;was Dr. Strong a prophet of God? If not, and he allowed outside influences to help determine how he defined words in scripture, is it possible that he may have made mistakes in defining words due to his own or other peoples&#8217; theology or preconceived ideas?

I also need a little clarification on this&#8230;..did he get to pick which definition fits which verse? If he did, was it according to what he derived as &#8220;context&#8221; while reading the bible&#8230;..and is it possible that someone might disagree with him without disagreeing with scripture? If we get to pick which definitions fit which verses, is it also possible that we could make mistakes?

One definition for the soul is our desires, for instance, so can we apply that definition to the verses that talk about a soul eating blood? Of course not.

Are we to consider Dr. Strong as an authoritative author of our faith, or do we rely on scripture/Holy Spirit? More importantly, can you tell me with no doubts, that Dr. Strong let scripture interpret itself without any personal interpretation of his own or anyone else&#8217;s, ever?

And lastly, can you point me specifically to the verses that Dr. Strong decided referred to spirit as &#8220;a human soul that has left the body&#8221;? I&#8217;d like to see all of them, and decide for myself.

What you&#8217;ve done is selectively listed verses proving something that you, me and every Biblical lexicon and Scripture concordance already agree with. I have no beef with the Scriptures you&#8217;ve quoted. You know what the issue is and it would serve us as well as the readers of this thread if you started to address them. I already believe the word &#8216;soul&#8217; or &#8216;spirit&#8217; can mean a living person so I&#8217;m not twisting anything. To insist that&#8217;s all it means is Scripture twisting that only Sadducees (and likeminded &#8216;scholars&#8217 can support. How about listing some names of Non-SDA and Non-JW scholars that assert that &#8220;there is no soul apart from the body&#8221;.

I&#8217;ll have to get back with you on quoting Non-SDA and Non-JW authors because I have a great book from a pastor in the Seventh-day Baptist church. I also have some literature from two authors within the Messianic church. I don&#8217;t want to misquote anyone and I don&#8217;t have time to dig them out of my garage this week. So can I have an extension?

It won&#8217;t satisfy you anyway Pythons, because not all SDBs and Messianics agree on this subject. Neither of those churches, that I know of, even talk about this subject from the pulpit because individual people within those churches disagree and it&#8217;s &#8220;safe&#8221; just not to talk about it.

I do have resources though, so I can definitely provide them. I&#8217;d rather we let scripture interpret itself, but if you don&#8217;t believe me, then I guess I&#8217;ll show you (if you&#8217;ll give me an extension).

After class tonight I&#8217;ll try to find some websites from the same authors, but I can&#8217;t make any guarantees because my sister is here from Colorado and I am hoping to spend more time with them before they leave on Thursday.

That&#8217;s quite the accusation that I only picked verses that fit one definition. I worked pretty hard on my silly list, so if you&#8217;d please supply one that lists verses that fit YOUR definition of the soul, I&#8217;d genuinely like to see them all. Let us reason together and rightly divide the Word, okay?

It&#8217;s very simple, if the context determines the rendered meaning is a living person than because living people eat, drink, take baths and die that&#8217;s how it works. What you&#8217;ve done is correctly taken the context of a soul equating to a living person then INCORRECTLY applied that context to every other text to generate your sincere belief &#8220;that there is no soul outside the body&#8221;. This is just like a certain friend you have trying to tell me the 10 Commandments are never called a Testimony when they were specifically called that in the Bible, and to add injury to insult, were kept in, &#8220;The Ark of the Testimony&#8221;.

Are you talking about my pesky friend RND?

Oh man, there&#8217;s that accusation again, so now I guess I&#8217;ll ask once more for you to supply a list of verses where the soul is clearly talking about an &#8220;existence&#8221; that lives outside of the body and has immortality. It&#8217;s only proper.

I think my post is getting too long, so I&#8217;ll submit this one and answer the second part of your previous post later today. Deal?

 

[TrustAndObey]

It&#8217;s very simple, if the context determines the rendered meaning is a living person than because living people eat, drink, take baths and die that&#8217;s how it works. What you&#8217;ve done is correctly taken the context of a soul equating to a living person then INCORRECTLY applied that context to every other text to generate your sincere belief &#8220;that there is no soul outside the body&#8221;. This is just like a certain friend you have trying to tell me the 10 Commandments are never called a Testimony when they were specifically called that in the Bible, and to add injury to insult, were kept in, &#8220;The Ark of the Testimony&#8221;.

What about the verses I posted that talk about the soul going into the grave? Is that something a LIVING person does?

 

[Pythons]

I'm off vacation and back in school. I was on Spring Break last week. This has been a really tough semester, and I appreciate the well wishes!

Not a problem, I'm not as bad as some might make me out to be.

No worries. Most of the time I’m posting with tons of distractions, not unlike now, so I totally understand.

Every day is like that for me lol...

I totally get that it’s figurative. I don’t base my beliefs on figurative though.

It's only "under the altar" thats figurative of where the literal souls are. Location of the literal souls is painted figurativly as the sanctuary is literal.

I believe John did indeed see the heavenly sanctuary and souls under the altar, Pythons. However, I also believe he did indeed see a ten-headed beast as well. Both are symbolic of something else. Daniel was seeing a literal statue, but that statue was symbolic of something else, agreed?

The Sanctuary is literal so it couldn't be symbolic.

Revelation is obviously prophetic since it’s a vision of the Lord’s Day, the day our Lord returns….which hasn’t happened yet.

We can agree that the sanctuary John witness is literal.

Here’s the problem with “religious” debates and people only looking at one side of a coin. There are a whole lot of definitions listed in Strong’s for the word spirit, but you picked the one that fits your theology.

I accept all the definitions because the context determines the meaning every single time.

I have to apply different definitions to different verses, because obviously they aren’t all talking about the same thing. Some of the verses I listed clearly referred to living people, some to dead people, some to animals, etc.

The context determines the meaning and that's why some of the definitions in Strong's equate the soul as that which lives outside the body. It's not logical to accept one definition while rejecting the other when they both come out of the same book.

That’s very nice of you. I’m glad you brought this up because I’ve been dying to talk to someone (for real) who is an expert on the Strong’s concordance.

I actually don’t use the Strong’s concordance very often, and when I do, it’s usually just for comparisons. I just happened to agree with the definitions that RC posted for the soul because I felt they accurately described what anyone can read for themselves in scripture.

I'm not an expert by any means but I can assure you that I can show you how to use one as good as I can.

Are there some outside sources that Dr. Strong may have relied on for his interpretations of words? For instance, if Dr. Strong referred to Sunday as the “Lord’s Day”, where would he get that idea?

Secular history of the Romans as well as Jewish history all confirm "The Lord's day" = Sunday, that's how.

It certainly wouldn’t be from scripture, right, since there’s only one verse in the entire bible that uses the term “Lord’s day”…and it doesn’t talk about a day of the week, but of an event—the great day of our Lord’s return.

If John was in the Spirit "on the Lord's day" prior to witnessing the events then it was on a specific day, Sunday, as confirmed by Secular history.

Also..…was Dr. Strong a prophet of God? If not, and he allowed outside influences to help determine how he defined words in scripture, is it possible that he may have made mistakes in defining words due to his own or other peoples’ theology or preconceived ideas?

Please don't take this the wrong way but that is exactly a JW argument, it's spot-on JW. If you can't trust secular history how do you build your case for 1844?

I also need a little clarification on this…..did he get to pick which definition fits which verse? If he did, was it according to what he derived as “context” while reading the bible…..and is it possible that someone might disagree with him without disagreeing with scripture? If we get to pick which definitions fit which verses, is it also possible that we could make mistakes?

The context determines the meaning, otherwise written material is worthless.

One definition for the soul is our desires, for instance, so can we apply that definition to the verses that talk about a soul eating blood? Of course not.

Of course, this isn't the issue.

Are we to consider Dr. Strong as an authoritative author of our faith, or do we rely on scripture/Holy Spirit? More importantly, can you tell me with no doubts, that Dr. Strong let scripture interpret itself without any personal interpretation of his own or anyone else’s, ever?

If we move away from Traditional definitions we should have a good reason for doing it based on truth from what we can establish---certainly not from taking a person who had no education in Greek or the other languages word on it because of "special understanding".

And lastly, can you point me specifically to the verses that Dr. Strong decided referred to spirit as “a human soul that has left the body”? I’d like to see all of them, and decide for myself.

I'm at work now so I'll edit later and get you a few of them.

I’ll have to get back with you on quoting Non-SDA and Non-JW authors because I have a great book from a pastor in the Seventh-day Baptist church. I also have some literature from two authors within the Messianic church. I don’t want to misquote anyone and I don’t have time to dig them out of my garage this week. So can I have an extension?

No rush at all.. Just please don't use Luther (I've had a lot of SDA's use him and it ends in their embarassment).

It won’t satisfy you anyway Pythons, because not all SDBs and Messianics agree on this subject. Neither of those churches, that I know of, even talk about this subject from the pulpit because individual people within those churches disagree and it’s “safe” just not to talk about it.

reasonable doubt is enough for me Sister.

I do have resources though, so I can definitely provide them. I’d rather we let scripture interpret itself, but if you don’t believe me, then I guess I’ll show you (if you’ll give me an extension).

of course

After class tonight I’ll try to find some websites from the same authors, but I can’t make any guarantees because my sister is here from Colorado and I am hoping to spend more time with them before they leave on Thursday.

Family first, seriously no rush.

That’s quite the accusation that I only picked verses that fit one definition. I worked pretty hard on my silly list, so if you’d please supply one that lists verses that fit YOUR definition of the soul, I’d genuinely like to see them all. Let us reason together and rightly divide the Word, okay?

I'll have it up for you tonight. There is a problem with posting at CF now and who knows where it will end up lol...

Are you talking about my pesky friend RND?

Oh man, there’s that accusation again, so now I guess I’ll ask once more for you to supply a list of verses where the soul is clearly talking about an “existence” that lives outside of the body and has immortality. It’s only proper.

I think my post is getting too long, so I’ll submit this one and answer the second part of your previous post later today. Deal?

I'm not saying any names I'll have that list for you.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Pythons, did you ever get a chance to look up the verses you were talking about? They may be buried in this thread because of the update mess, but I wanted to check before I went digging for them.

 

[Pythons]

Pythons, did you ever get a chance to look up the verses you were talking about? They may be buried in this thread because of the update mess, but I wanted to check before I went digging for them.

I'm about a third of the way done with my Strong's post. In it I review the context of the verses you bring up. It's going to be long.