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What is a pro-choice Christian?

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SPF

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SkyWriting, I have always noticed that infertile couples are the backbone of many pro-life groups.
Glad to see you back Fantime, especially after you ended a long pontificating post with, "This thread is just a waste of my time..." But anyway, can you provide some support for the above claim? I would hate to think that this is just one of those unsupported claims that only serve to fallaciously attempt to disregard a person or group.

What I find most ironic is that still not a single person is willing to actually address the heart of the issue. Fantime, albeit not with her own words, just a confirmation at least, was willing to agree with the Catholic position that abortion is immoral, that all babies born or unborn possess the same inherent moral worth, and that abortion is a grave evil. Of course, how she can then continue to be pro-choice after acknowledging that position is beyond all sense of intellectual integrity.

So again I'll say, the morality of abortions stands or falls with how we understand that nature of the life within the womb. Are all humans created in the image of God possessing inherent moral worth and value? I don't see how any Christian at the very least could disagree with that axiom.
 
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SPF

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I'm afraid I suspect Pro-Life groups want the babies to grow up and die in war.

They don't like abortion, but they do like war.
It's statements like these that are frankly, heinous. It's insulting, judgmental, and just a real jerk thing to say. You show me one thing a pro-life person has ever said that would affirm this "suspicion" of yours, please. Uncharitable comment at its worst.
 
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SkyWriting

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SkyWriting, I have always noticed that infertile couples are the backbone of many pro-life groups.

Before Roe v. Wade, it was very easy for infertile couples to adopt. The lack of babies to adopt, especially healthy babies of the same race and ethnicity as the adoptive parents, is a significant cause of pain to many couples.

Central American countries, formerly a good source of adoptable infants, started putting up roadblocks to adoption after the Russian scandal when couples adopting Russian children with attachment disorder tried to "give them back."

But I understand that. I will go on the MS walk because my sibling has MS, but I am less interested in walks for diseases my family hasn't been affected by. So in a sense, pro-life advocacy is a good fit for infertile couples.

I hope that they find babies to adopt--it's sad that people who don't want children are conceiving and potentially great parents aren't. :(

Not one of my 9 grandkids match my race or ethnicity. One ballooned
in weight due to an undiagnosed thyroid condition. Our daughter
had childhood leukemia and her son is autistic.

How sad adopting couples are, as you describe, thinking they should have
better choices than the rest of us who work with the cards we have in hand.
 
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SkyWriting

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It's statements like these that are frankly, heinous. It's insulting, judgmental, and just a real jerk thing to say. You show me one thing a pro-life person has ever said that would affirm this "suspicion" of yours, please. Uncharitable comment at its worst.

I'd say it is overly charitable. One of the characteristics of pro-life
groups is their call-to-battle against all their neighbors staging
protest-sit-ins, marches in doctors neighborhoods, and street
demonstrations with banners and walking placards.

I'm sure they'd love to have born babies join the war.
We would have been thrilled to have an abortion survivor
join the battle. There are a couple out there.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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So it's simple, if humans possess inherent moral worth and value, then abortion is immoral. If we don't, then it's not.

Sorry, that is NOT true. (Said in context of claim to "spiritual and intellectual integrity.")

If occasionally or at least once, one points out that the real question is, What is a human being?", or more specifically, "Is the fetus a human being?," it seems that can be quickly forgotten.

Certainly ALL can claim that, "humans possess inherent moral worth and value," and many of those all can without contradiction favor abortion. Because what is in the womb is NOT a human being, (at least in their estimation.)
It's interesting that "humans" tends to be used to be ambiguous about "human beings," on the basis that OF COURSE WHAT IS IN THE WOMB IS "HUMAN" (consists of human cells),
and "humans" sounds like "well that's the human.")
I wonder how many hereabouts have noticed that last point ...
AND IF THEY HAD INTELLECTUAL INTEGRITY would they not try to more strictly always use the term, "human being," and NOT introduce the slipperiness of "humans."
 
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Fantine

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Just anecdotal. I've known a number of women who look at healthy newborns as commodities there need to be more of. That doesn't mean that everyone who gets involved with pro-life has an agenda. These are adoption statistics today.
Adoption Statistics

33% of adoptions are private (the ones most likely to be of a healthy infant.) I do think that's positive--that the children who really need homes are getting adopted.

If more healthy babies were available to adopt would that mean that fewer older, minority, or disabled children would get adopted? Probably.

But things have gone far since 1980, when neighbors of mine went to Mississippi to pick up the baby they wanted to adopt and cancelled the contract when they learned he had been born biracial.
 
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parousia70

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That's great, but it doesn't have anything to do with determining whether or not all humans possess inherent moral worth and value. Scientifically we know that new human life is formed at conception. Now, a lot of things need to happen in order for that new human life to grow. One of those things is implantation, another of course would be nourishment, and many other things need to line up to help the new human life grow.

Well, prior to conception, the Egg is undeniably alive, and human, as is the Sperm. There is no "death" or "non life" that precedes conception, nor does conception result in the "Death" of either the sperm or egg. To claim "New" human life begins at conception is erroneous.
As you said, A lot of things have to happen for the human life that are the egg and sperm separately, to continue to live and grow. Conception is merely a phase of human life, which, like the individual sperm and egg, carries the potential to become a human being.

This is a question of practice. Often times people confuse practice and principle. I'm currently interested in discussing the principle. Practices are derived from principles. So the question we need to answer first before we can discuss what practices we should commit to would be this: Are all humans inherently morally valuable? Once we have a foundation, then we can look at how the foundation plays out.
Let's first agree on the principle before we discuss the practice.

Fair enough.
What makes a human life?
Lets take a fertilized egg. As I understand your position, the moment of fertilization and not before, we have a human life, with the full moral worth and value of you or I today.

If the egg splits into twins, then what do we call them?
Did they have the Moral worth of two Human lives at the moment of conception? Is only one of them Human now, since one (or both) of them was NOT a human life before the split? Are they each half a human life after the split??

Can we agree that the distinct, separate individual twin's human life began sometime AFTER conception?

I won't get too far into the flip side of that coin, which is Chimeric human life... but it is worth mentioning as we grapple with the principle. 1 life at conception of two embryos? - each contributing embryo was 1/2 a human life before conjoining? Or when they Joined 1/2 of each one died? is the one individual 2 distinct human lives?

Just how many people does this fertilized egg represent? Should we take a weighted average? If so, we should certainly include the 2/3 or so that naturally fail to develop into a living newborn, no?

Or, does the one individual fertilized egg simply represent the potential for 1, or 2-3-4, or 1/2 a Human being?

So let's try and actually have a discussion that goes somewhere.

Hopefully I have helped kick that off above :)

Your title seems to indicate that you're a Catholic. Do you agree then with the Catholic position that human life is morally valuable from its conception and that abortion is a grave evil? That is the Catholic position.

I have no problem with the Catholic Church's doctrinal position on Abortion.

I also have no problem with the Church teaching that the individual Catholic is bound by his or her own conscience alone when making moral decisions for themselves.
 
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The Brown Brink

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It's statements like these that are frankly, heinous. It's insulting, judgmental, and just a real jerk thing to say. You show me one thing a pro-life person has ever said that would affirm this "suspicion" of yours, please. Uncharitable comment at its worst.

Those who are Pro-lifers are usually socially conservative.

Socially conservative folk usually vote Republican.

Republican ideology is based on money.

The focus on money eventually leads to war.

Gotta have babies to have war.

Right?
 
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HansPeter

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You have made a number of pro choice comments, so from my point if view tyou have a heart to allow the murder of unborn children.

Go do some research on what abortion actually involves and what some of the doctors who carry out the procedures say. Throwing abies with their hearts still beating in the bin, chopping living babies limb from limb to remove them and such like are not uncommon. Ignorance does not make murder acceptable.

LINK PLEASE. You found this out via an article or video, right? I appreciate your assistance in advance.
 
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SPF

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Well, prior to conception, the Egg is undeniably alive, and human, as is the Sperm. There is no "death" or "non life" that precedes conception, nor does conception result in the "Death" of either the sperm or egg. To claim "New" human life begins at conception is erroneous.
This is simply not true, and not accepted by any scientific or medical mind that I am aware of. Neither a sperm nor an ovum have any potential on their own to become anything more than what they are. Sperm and Ovum are things that the body produces, which are not new human beings.

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated: “I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”


Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He said: “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School:“The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.


Conception is merely a phase of human life, which carries the potential to become a human being.
If you reject the basic and accepted scientific position on when a new human being comes into existence, what argument would you make? Can you support it?

If the egg splits into twins, then what do we call them?
Did they have the Moral worth of two Human lives at the moment of conception? Is only one of them Human now, since one (or both) of them was NOT a human life before the split? Are they each half a human life after the split??

Can we agree that the individual twin's human life began sometime AFTER conception?
This question too has come up ad nauseum in the abortion threads here. I'll just copy/paste my response from another thread.

As for your examples of difficult situations, there is an answer to each one. When we say that "life begins at conception", we are using the term "conception" to mean simply "at its very beginning". For a long time, conception was seen as the ultimate beginning of new human life. But as you've rightly pointed out, sometimes conception (it's very beginning) is different, ie - identical twins.

In the case of identical twins, there was only one human life at conception, but then another human life was formed. In this case, God brought into existence the younger twin by a different method than conception. But it's not a problem. Both their lives as humans had a beginning, and from that beginning they are morally valuable and created in the image of God.

In the case of the Chimera that you describe, such as fraternal twins that end up being one. This is also very simple so long as we hold onto our foundation. The fraternal twins were each unique individuals created in the image of God. Something went wrong. This would happen because there is sin in the world, and things don't always work out perfectly. In your chimera example, we would simply say that one of the humans died, and one of the humans made it. Now, certainly the human that came out was changed and affected by the death of the other, but they still have the same soul they did when they were conceived. Which one made it and which one died? I don't know, and you don't know, but that doesn't affect the principle.

------------------------------------

So again, I agree with the Catholic teaching that abortion is a grave evil, that it is immoral, that it is sin. Human life is inherently morally valuable because we are all created in the image of God.
 
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The Brown Brink

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Those who are Pro-lifers are usually socially conservative.

Socially conservative folk usually vote Republican.

Republican ideology is based on money.

The focus on money eventually leads to war.

Gotta have babies to have war.

Right?


Lots and lots of babies...
And if these babies grow up miserable and tough and mean, they'll make good soldiers, won't they...?
 
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The Brown Brink

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Lots and lots of babies...
And if these babies grow up miserable and tough and mean, they'll make good soldiers, won't they...?

And that's what Republicans want.
Good, tough, young soldiers to protect their parents' money...
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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So again, I agree with the Catholic teaching that abortion is a grave evil, that it is immoral, that it is sin. Human life is inherently morally valuable because we are all created in the image of God.

"Human life" would mean all human life, and since human cancer cells ARE human life, then your claim includes the claim, "human cancer cells are inherently morally valuable."

In other words, it is (at least partly) FALSE to claim, "Human life is inherently morally valuable."
 
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SPF

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"Human life" would mean all human life, and since human cancer cells ARE human life, then your claim includes the claim, "human cancer cells are inherently morally valuable."

In other words, it is (at least partly) FALSE to claim, "Human life is inherently morally valuable."
I'm not sure what definition of "human life" you're using, but its certainly not one anyone else uses.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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I'm not sure what definition of "human life" you're using, but its certainly not one anyone else uses.
First of all, according to the grammar of English, "human" is an adjective and modifies the term "life."
It is a particular type of life that we are concerned with, and that is the life that human cells with human DNA have (whatever their function or position).
What is it about "human" or ""life" you still need to understand to realize that if you say, "Human life is inherently morally valuable," it is a claim about a certain kind of life, the life of each and every cell that possesses human DNA?
So need I repeat the conclusion, "Human life is inherently morally valuable," is a FALSE claim, because there is some human life namely that of human cancer cells (for instance), that nobody minds killing. Stopping the human life that is in that case destroying a person.

Or another way of looking at it, "human life" is NOT synonymous with "human being," and it needs to be for what you say to make sense.
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Ok, sorry Douglas. At conception, a new human being is formed. All human beings, as being created in the image of God, possess inherent moral worth and value. There, happy?
No, you do not acknowledge any FALSITY in what you were claiming, and probably will keep on claiming the falsity whenever it seems it might work as an argument with someone.

How can I be happy with such contentment with falsity?
 
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Douglas Hendrickson

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Ok, sorry Douglas. At conception, a new human being is formed. All human beings, as being created in the image of God, possess inherent moral worth and value. There, happy?
Why should I be happy at you not presenting any argument, just restating your conclusion?
As though your merely stating that made it true - nothing more to be said.

It should be obvious to anyone that, "At conception, a new human being is formed," is FALSE.
What do you think pregnancy is for, what do you think happens in pregnancy?
Someone suggested conception is not even a part of pregnancy - well maybe not, but it usually gets it on the road. And what road is that? To build a new human being, to form it.
It would seem that not even the beginning of the forming, of the construction of a human being, has happened at conception.
 
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