What is a free mason?? /need advice?

[Rev Wayne]

Lynn,

I'm not really familiar with Crowley, and so can't speak to that issue myself. I do find it strange that after posting for eight months on an antimasonic website where the floor is wide open for all things masonic and/or antimasonic, Crowley's name never once came up. And believe me, if he had truly been a Mason, if anybody in the world would have been all over it, it would be those guys. The silence on Crowley, as those at the E-511 site would say, "is telling." My sources tell me that he was not a Mason, though he made the claim. He claimed the title of "Grand Inspector General," a title of administrative rank and not degree. Since links have purportedly not been allowed, I shall see if quotes from the article shall be allowed. The writer is Matt D.A. Fletcheran, from 1994:

The 33° is styled Sovereign Grand Inspector-General and is sparingly conferred by the Supreme Councils of the recognised jurisdictions. There does not appear to be any record of this conferment other than his claim made in The Confessions of Aleister Crowley.

The article sums up with the following paragraph:

The United Grand Lodge of England does not recognize Crowley as a member of the Craft. All his affiliations were with irregular bodies, and so they deny him recognition.

As for Pike, it seems to make a difference when quoting small portions of what he says as opposed to reading the pages-long discourses he tends to engage in. For instance, I have seen the often-quoted piece from him declaring Freemasonry to be a religion; but I have seen much less frequently this quote from him:

"Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. The Brahmin, the Jew, the Mahometan, the Catholic, the Protestant, each professing his peculiar religion, sanctioned by the laws, by time, and by climate, must needs retain it, and cannot have two religions"--Morals & Dogma, p. 161

I suppose you and I, were we to continue, could go on in this same pattern ad infinitum. But with other circumstances that demand my attention at present, I for one will be content to simply "agree to disagree," hopefully to the benefit of each of us toward faithful use of our time. God's blessings and peace be with you.

Wayne

 

[Lynn73]

I'm curious as to why no links are allowed to be posted here about Mr. Crowley.

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

Because many christians mistakenly think he is a Satanist. It isn't true. I had a wonderful quote of his i needed to remove from my sig, they wanted it off.

 

[Lynn73]

You're right, Rev Wayne, we could go on and on about it and I agree with you to disagree. I may want to share a few more things, so just disregard them and view them as being for anyone else who cares to comment. It'd be nice if some of the ones who believe as I do about it would come back and comment as I feel rather alone, lol. Anyway, the following isn't in answer to you, just a general posting for anyone.

Here's a quote from Masonry, Beyond the Light by William Schnoebelen.

OUT OF THE HORSE'S MOUTH?

Some of the most highly esteemed Masonic authorities shared their thoughts on the question of whether Masonry is a religion. Read the words of Albert Pike, 33rd degree, called the "Plato of Freemasonry." He was the former "Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of Grand Sovereign Inspectors General of the Thirty-Third Degree."

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion.​

and it's teachings are instructions in religion.​

It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion.​

Masonry propogates no creed except it's own​

most simple and sublime one; that universal​

religion taught by nature and reason.​

That rite raised the corner of the veil...for​

there it declares that Masonry is a worship.​

​

from Morals and Dogma, page 213​

Probably the leading historian and scholar of Freemasonry in modern times was Albert Mackey, 33rd. He declared that "The religion of Freemasonry is not Christianity. From Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 618​

These Masonic authorities, each regarded very highly by half the Grand Lodges in America, agree that Masonry is a religion, and is not Christianity. The dictionary and the words of it's own authorities and scholars declare it.​

In addition to Mackey's observation that Masonry is not Christianity, we can do more than take his word for it. In the next few chapters, we will see if the religion of Freemasonry is somehow compatible with, or opposed to true Bible-based Christianity.​

 

[Lynn73]

Because many christians mistakenly think he is a Satanist. It isn't true. I had a wonderful quote of his i needed to remove from my sig, they wanted it off.

Well, from the links I've seen, he probably was one but we won't argue. Even if he was, why can't we post the links to discuss it. Satan is in the Bible, he exists so we should be able to talk about it on a Christian board. Of course, he is our enemy and a liar.

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

Crowley wasn't a satanist in the sense that he worshipped satan....he was no more a satanist than I am, or any other pagan. He did perpetuate the rumor himself so it isn't surprising that many think he is. he enjoyed embracing what the mainstream despised.

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

Satan is in the Bible, he exists so we should be able to talk about it on a Christian board.

they don't want any altered beliefs promoted.

 

[Thaddeus]

Preach to them Lynn73.

Bill has given lectures over this God (GAOTU), they swear and pray to it in their temple. Common sense leads us to label Masonry as a religion.

GAOTU isn't Christ yet it might consist of Christ along with any other god ad infinitum.

You're doing a fine job Lynn, carry on.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Lynn,

I can appreciate your reply, and let me concur with you in saying, that I post this not merely to speak to your post, but for the benefit for any other interested readers. I have certainly heard of Mr. Schnoebelen, though I would not go beyond that bare statement. But I need no familiarity with Mr. Schnoebelen to know this much, that when he quoted Pike, these words

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion.​

and it's teachings are instructions in religion.​

​

were the only ones to be found on the listed page. That's not to say they are not to be found in Pike; but so far, in a thorough reading of 3 to 4 pages just before and after this page, they are still nowhere in sight. It appears the author mis-quoted or mis-attributed Mr. Pike in order to bolster his own argument. That is not to deny that Mr. Pike did not write these words elsewhere, just simply offering the only explanation I can see for why Mr. Schnoebelen would state that the rest of the quoted words came from that page. (I'm assuming, of course, that the passage from Pike was an included part of what Schoebelen, and not your own addition at the end f his words. Because of the quotation marks at the end of the sentence just prior to the Pike quote, I was not absolutely sure.) And of course, the quote goes in direct contrast to what Mr. Pike has already said earlier:​

​

"Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. The Brahmin, the Jew, the Mahometan, the Catholic, the Protestant, each professing his peculiar religion, sanctioned by the laws, by time, and by climate, must needs retain it, and cannot have two religions"--Morals & Dogma, p. 161​

​

​

Perhaps I can lay to rest the apparent contradiction presented by this often mis-quoted passage that you cite. And again I say, Pike is extremely difficult to quote out of context, you must follow the entire discourse, which often carries thoughts across many pages. For his argument upon this particular topic, you must at the very least go back to page 211. And to put his basic premise into a modernized format, I understand him to be discussing what we would more likely refer to as the false division between the sacred and the secular. Beginning with the last paragraph on 211, I will quote a line or two from the beginning of the next several paragraphs, since I obviously cannot quote several pages here, just to give you the gist of what he is trying to get across:​

Masonry teaches its Initiates that the pursuits and occupations of this life, its activity, care, and ingenuity, the predestined developments of the nature given us by God, tend to promote His great design, in making the world; and are not at war with the great purpose of life. . . .​

That appointed action of life is the great training of Providence; and if man yields himself to it, he will need neither churches nor ordinances, except for the expression of his religious homage and gratitude. For there is a religion of toil. . . .​

The advocate who fairly and honestly presents his case, with a feeling of true self-respect, honor, and conscience, to help the tribunal on towards the right conclusion, with a conviction that God's justice reigns there, is acting a religious part, leading that day a religious life; or else right and justice are no part of religion. . . .​

Books, to be of religious tendency in the Masonic sense, need not be books of sermons, of pious exercises, or of prayers. . . . The oracles of God do not speak from the pulpit alone.​

There is also a religion of society. . . .​

In gay assemblies for amusement, the good affections of life gush and mingle. . . .​

The same splendor of kindly liking, and affectionate regard, shines like the soft overarching sky, over all the wrold; over all places where men meet, and walk or toil together; not over lovers' bowers and marriage-altars alone, not over the homes of purity and tenderness alone; but over all filled fields, and busy workshops, and dusty highways, and paved streets. . . .​

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. . . .​

Certainly there are many evils and bad passioins, and much hate and contempt and unkindness everywhere in the world. We cannot refuse to see the evil that is in life. But all is not evil. We still see God in the world. There is good amongst the evil. . . .​

Love clasps the hand of love, amid all the envyings and distractions of showy competition. . . .​

There is an element of good in all men's lawful pursuits and a divine spirit breathing in all their lawful affections. The ground on which they tread is holy ground. . . .​

Men may be virtuous, self-improving, and religious in their employments. Precisely for that, those employments were made. . . .​

Everything within us and without us ought to stir our minds to admiration and wonder. . . .​

The humblest object beneath our eye as completely defies our scrutiny as the economy of the most distant star. . . .​

A Mason's great business with life is to read the book of its teaching; to find that life is not the doing of drudgeries, but the hearing of oracles. . . .​

We shall be just as happy hereafter, as we are pure and upright, and no more, just as happy as our character prepares us to be, and no more. . . .​

The law of retribution presses upon every man, whethere he thinks of it or not. . . .​

Whatsoever a man soweth, that, and not something else, shall he reap. . . .​

Let us take care, therefore, what we sow. . . .​

Beware, thou who art tempted to evil! Beware what thou layest up for the future! Wrong not thy neighbor!. . . .His law can never be abrogated, nor His justice eluded; and forever and ever it will be true, that "Whatsoever a man soweth, that also he shall reap." (Morals & Dogma, 211-217)​

Just follow the paragraphs' beginning sentences, and it becomes easy to see the continuity of the discussion. He is speaking of the sacredness of all of life, the "religion" that can be found in all of life, if we but become attuned to it. Within that context, he offers examples of how religion permeates all of life: in toil, in being a spokesman for justice, in books that lift up virtues, in society, in business, in fellowship, in brotherly love, even in the lodgeroom--then in the paragraph that follows he brings it all down to "everywhere in the world." When thus placed in the proper context of his entire discourse upon the subject, it is easy to see that he is not speaking directly to the specific subject of the lodge and its relation to religion; rather, he is speaking to the subject of religion and its relation to and permeation of all of life--including the lodgeroom. With his concluding paragraphs, it is easy to see that he puts forth the exhortation that if we see all of life as involved in the spiritual rather than somehow separate, then we will be going about in all of life sowing the proper seeds, looking to reap the proper harvest.​

I fail to see how this is incompatible with Christian thought and teaching. On the contrary, it is directly in line with teachings of ministers all the way back at least as far back as John Calvin. I find it ironic that the very same thought is expressed by A.W. Tozer, outspoken opponent of Freemasonry, in his sermon "The Sacrament of Living" (Pursuit of God, Chap. 10). You will also find it in sermons like "Fishing as a Sacrament," (A Sermon preached by Gary Ritner at Hillcrest UMC on April 30, 1995), "Living Sacramentally," by Robert Rayburn, "Christian Practice: Sacrament in a World of Technique," by Bob Olmstead, preached at First UMC in Palo Alto (He makes the interesting statements, "Religion is a mamma duck with 15 babies crossing the freeway, and worship is taking the time to see a flower"), and "Life, Too, Should Be a Sacrament," by James E. Wagner, president of Evangelical and Reformed Church in Philadelphia. ​

Failure to take into account Pike's "long view" style of writing has led to many false ideas about Pike and about Freemasonry being spread far and wide as the "truth of Freemasonry"; in reality, very often nothing could be further from the truth than some of the malicious mischaracterizations that occur. Pike cannot simply be read a paragraph at a time, and lift his main thought out of the paragraph. That may work with many, perhaps even most, writers. Pike must be read a chapter at a time, and the main thought gleaned from each paragraph. Sometimes that can be done sentence by sentence, but more often such concise estimation of this man's work simply falls short of the mark, which is very unfortunate.​

Wayne​

 

[billmcelligott]

Preach to them Lynn73.

Bill has given lectures over this God (GAOTU), they swear and pray to it in their temple. Common sense leads us to label Masonry as a religion.

GAOTU isn't Christ yet it might consist of Christ along with any other god ad infinitum.

You're doing a fine job Lynn, carry on.

Thadeus, I gave you a complete explanation on the Lectures. You have tried to make it seem completely different. At NO time did I say "given lectures over this God" I made it clear that there was no different God. As a Christian , I presume you would not wish to bear false witness.

Take the facts not your massage of the facts.

You are demeaning the goodness and the intent of many worthy people. They will not stand up and have these arguments , because they say to me . " Its not worth the time, whatever you try to explain they will twist it and make you out to be a liar, Just ignore them".

My answer is , if these guys a good Christian people then they have an inbiult reasoning that will allow others to have there fair say. Please dont prove me wrong.

The cold hard facts are . Yes we have Lodge meetings with other religions included. Yes we have an odd prayer of thanks. Yes we do have a living story told in the Lodge. So either Masonry is a multi religious group or it allows the worship of all religions.

In Isreal there are Lodges today , yes going on all over Isreal now, where Jew, Arab and Gentile sit and hold a meeting side by side.

Do you say to the Jew that he prays to a different God, because he does not accept Christ, the Muslim accepts Christ but as a prophet.

I repeat again , show me any man that has left his religion to join Masonry. It has never happened. I know many who have left one Church to join another.

 

[Thaddeus]

I talk about him maybe in a lecture, I listen to how great he is, because he , the GAOTU is in the living story which is Masonry. No prayer ends with GAOTU

I'm sorry. You talk about him maybe in a lecture.

I've said I understand how you personally think of this god Gaotu, but the problem remains that Gaotu could also be Lucifer or any Pagan god.

You TAUGHT me that. I didn't even know what Gaotu was before I got to this thread.

You state the positive points of Masonry and I point out the negatives I see based on your words.

I hate the fact that Masonry allows My God (which you've clearly stated you worship) to be equal with ANYTHING another Mason chooses to worship. This is why Masonry has to use the name GAOTU.

 

[Thaddeus]

Do you say to the Jew that he prays to a different God, because he does not accept Christ, the Muslim accepts Christ but as a prophet.

I repeat again , show me any man that has left his religion to join Masonry. It has never happened. I know many who have left one Church to join another.

Why not call GAOTU "The God of Abraham?" This would take Lucifer and the Pagan gods out of the equation.

Ask all Masons to undergo that change worldwide, then tell me how that's received. I trust they would want to be as clear as possible given the present state of confusion.

 

[Lynn73]

Thaddeus, read something interesting in the book MASONRY, BEYOND THE ......LIGHT by William Schnoebelen (I don't know if that's spelled right)

He related and experience he had with a Christian mason on the phone. He said that they had sent out packets about masonry upon request and this gentleman got very angry and called him and berated him because of what the info said about Masonry. Went on and on about how joining the Lodge and becoming a Mason was the best thing that every happened in his l...ife. Bill made sure he had heard the man correctly and then said to him something to the effect of "if Masonry is the best thing that happened to you, where does that leave Jesus?" He got silence, then the man started sputtering about how he didn't mean it like that. But that's what the man said.
Told Bill to take him off the mailing list. Don't you find that interesting?
I agree, the Masons should be more specific on what their terms mean, if they believe they are compatible with the Christian faith. Their God seems to be a generic God where all members can just fill in the blank. This isn't the God of the Bible I've heard that if the membership of a certain lodge is predominantly Muslim, the Koran is on the alter, if Christian, the Bible, if something else, their book of religion, and so on. I ask again, why have so many Christian Masons felt the Lord calling them out of Masonry if it's so compatible with Christianity like they keep insisting that it is? I just don't see it being compatible nor do I thing all those opposed are misinterpreting statements by certain Masons.

 

[billmcelligott]

Thadeus

This is what i said in reply to your questions

page 29

According to Lodge teaching/info, what is the name of the man who was the greatest builder?

( reference to ‘The lord thy God’)


Lets see if anyone contradicts me.

Oh, by the way nobody did contradict me. ??




page 28

Masonry is a living, theatrical story. In order to tell the story we have a few what we term lectures. you can find these if you search to web.

The story is about the stabilty you find in good friendship, and the fidelity of a good friend.

The secrecy , of Masonry, that everyone seems to be in a panic about is a test of merit.

I will tell you a secret about me Thadeus, I expect you not to repeat it to anyone else. If I find you have spurned the faith and trust I placed in you, then to me you are not a good friend.

That is the most precise concept I can give for the secrets of Masonry. A test of Merit



Page 23



Sorry I am sure I covered this before .

No prayers in Lodge are ended with anything other than Amen or so mote it be. Which is exactly the same.

The obligations are taken using the terms Great Architect and Grand Geometrician. Most High.

These are references to the god of the bible and you may have a problem with saying these words I do not know. Please remember tht the story of masonry is founded on the Old Testament, obviously Jesus is not mentioned. But we are talking about a story being told in a theatrical manner. Not a religious ceremony.





----------------

This was changed to :
Bill has given lectures over this God (GAOTU), they swear and pray to it in their temple. Common sense leads us to label Masonry as a religion.
---------------------------
Now it is very simple I did not say that.

Argument I have no problem with , changing comment to suit your argument I do have aproblem with. I am a very consitant writer. You will find the content does not change so that is why i am confident with my challenges.

 

[Lynn73]

Do they pray in the name of Jesus Christ? And if not, why not?
http://www.cephasministry.com/masonic_testimony.html

 

[Plan 9]

Do they pray in the name of Jesus Christ? And if not, why not?
http://www.cephasministry.com/masonic_testimony.html[/QUOTE]


It's an interfaith fraternal organization, not a religious one.

 

[Thaddeus]

No prayers in Lodge are ended with anything other than Amen or so mote it be. Which is exactly the same.

The obligations are taken using the terms Great Architect and Grand Geometrician. Most High.

This was changed to :
Bill has given lectures over this God (GAOTU), they swear and pray to it in their temple. Common sense leads us to label Masonry as a religion.
---------------------------
Now it is very simple I did not say that.

Do you deny that if a Mason were a Satanist, that Gaotu would be Satan to that Mason? Do we have to return to Masonry's past when Gaotu was called "Jahbulon?" I had never heard of Jahbulon until you defined it for me.

Isn't Gaotu the new term for Jahbulon? Which you defined for us as;
Jah = God
Bul= Baal
On=Is??

I've since looked up the term and feel most people define "On" as Osiris but I won't quibble.

At any rate can we agree on this much:
You listen to lectures about Gaotu. You pray and take your obigations, swears, to the Great Architect.

Isn't the Great Architect GAOTU? Maybe it's still Jahbulon. Or is this one GA, not to be confused with GAOTU? I get confused. I don't know why God just can't be God within Masonry.

I can't make any sense of the "theatrical story." I have to know exactly what Gaotu is first.

 

[Lynn73]

That link doesn't appear to work, Plan 9
I agree with you, Thaddeus. Each mason can make the GAOTU or the generic god be whatever they want it to be.

 

[Plan 9]

That link doesn't appear to work, Plan 9
I agree with you, Thaddeus. Each mason can make the GAOTU or the generic god be whatever they want it to be.

erm...that's your link, Lynn; I didn't remove it from your quote.

As I said, it's an interfaith fraternal organization; it isn't a religion.

Why do you feel that's a bad thing?

 

[Lynn73]

The link does work in my post. Don't know what happened in the quote thing. Well, the Christian could possible be uniting with those that worship some other god. What assurance is there that this GAOTU is the God of the Bible? I just think they should very thoroughly check thinks out. Christians aren't supposed to serve two masters. It's either the Lodge and Mastor Mason or Christ.

Come back, Thaddeus, you're better at this than I am!
LOL