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What is a free mason?? /need advice?
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Lynn73
Jesus' lamb
For the one who started the OP and was a bit confused about masonry, I suggest you carefully examine both sides of the story which could, of ......course take you awhile. But best to do before making any decisions. From the Christian perspective, a good book to read would be THE MASONIC/CHRISTIAN CONFLICT by Keith Harris. Here's a short testimony by and ex Master:
I know how easy it is to defend the Lodge and how hard it is to accept Christian scrutiny of Masonry. For I was in the lodge for fourteen years, reaching the 32 degree level, and was Master of the Lodge for sixteen years. I, too, for most of those years, defended and justified my membership in the Lodge and discounted all Christian "attacks" against it.
However, being a seeker of Truth and L...ight, as you are, the more I searched the more I found Masonry to be in conflict and opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ. The two could not be yoked together. I had to divest myself of Freemasonry.
I would strongly urge all Masons to sincerely evaluate "in whose l...ight they stand", and "in whom do they put their trust."
Rev. Kurt Leberman, former 32 degree Mason and Past Mastor.
This testimony is from the aforementioned book.
Also, here's a quote from Morals and Dogma, pg 819, also from the book:
The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them."
This statement was made by Albert Pike, 33 degree.
This is deception. If Masonry is such a great thing and compatible with Christianity, why are there Christians who've come out of it because they found things not to be compatible with Christianity? It doesn't sound like something I'd want my husband involved in.
I had an uncle that was a Mason. I think I tried to talk to him about it one time but can't remember now. I was at his funeral and the Masons had a ceremony with him putting a white apron on the casket, etc. This just didn't square as being right to me, after the things I'd read about Masonry from the Christian perspective.
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/ex_masons_for_jesus/
http://secure.cornerstonehosting.com/~fish4masons.org/why/
I know how easy it is to defend the Lodge and how hard it is to accept Christian scrutiny of Masonry. For I was in the lodge for fourteen years, reaching the 32 degree level, and was Master of the Lodge for sixteen years. I, too, for most of those years, defended and justified my membership in the Lodge and discounted all Christian "attacks" against it.
However, being a seeker of Truth and L...ight, as you are, the more I searched the more I found Masonry to be in conflict and opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ. The two could not be yoked together. I had to divest myself of Freemasonry.
I would strongly urge all Masons to sincerely evaluate "in whose l...ight they stand", and "in whom do they put their trust."
Rev. Kurt Leberman, former 32 degree Mason and Past Mastor.
This testimony is from the aforementioned book.
Also, here's a quote from Morals and Dogma, pg 819, also from the book:
The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them."
This statement was made by Albert Pike, 33 degree.
This is deception. If Masonry is such a great thing and compatible with Christianity, why are there Christians who've come out of it because they found things not to be compatible with Christianity? It doesn't sound like something I'd want my husband involved in.
I had an uncle that was a Mason. I think I tried to talk to him about it one time but can't remember now. I was at his funeral and the Masons had a ceremony with him putting a white apron on the casket, etc. This just didn't square as being right to me, after the things I'd read about Masonry from the Christian perspective.
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/ex_masons_for_jesus/
http://secure.cornerstonehosting.com/~fish4masons.org/why/
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billmcelligott
The Sojourner
Lyn
There are about six million Masons world wide.
Pike and Macket were here when slavery was the in thing to do.
Approximately today there may be about 200 ex Masons that protest that Christianity is not compatable with Freemasonry. Most of these guys have written a book about it. There are cases of a single person joining Masonry the Mormons Jw's and various other organisations then writing a book on why he left.
All I can say to you is , meet some Masons, find out who and what they are. Then decide what you think of us. There are many clergy in Masonry. Many of us have a happy Christian basis in our lives.
In most of the western societies you are innocent untill proved guilty. From the inclination in your post, from you reading a book 'Masons' are being found guilty on the description of a few exstremist writers.
All I ask is to talk to and find out, your Uncle for example do you not see him but at funerals, not the best place for such questions. phone him and ask him, tell him this Mason said to ask. Is he a bad person, do you think he goes home at night and worships satan?
Can you undertsand my confusion when I see these questioned brought up about people I know to be good , clean living generous and caring.
There are about six million Masons world wide.
Pike and Macket were here when slavery was the in thing to do.
Approximately today there may be about 200 ex Masons that protest that Christianity is not compatable with Freemasonry. Most of these guys have written a book about it. There are cases of a single person joining Masonry the Mormons Jw's and various other organisations then writing a book on why he left.
All I can say to you is , meet some Masons, find out who and what they are. Then decide what you think of us. There are many clergy in Masonry. Many of us have a happy Christian basis in our lives.
In most of the western societies you are innocent untill proved guilty. From the inclination in your post, from you reading a book 'Masons' are being found guilty on the description of a few exstremist writers.
All I ask is to talk to and find out, your Uncle for example do you not see him but at funerals, not the best place for such questions. phone him and ask him, tell him this Mason said to ask. Is he a bad person, do you think he goes home at night and worships satan?
Can you undertsand my confusion when I see these questioned brought up about people I know to be good , clean living generous and caring.
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Rev Wayne
Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Lynn73,
Thanks for answering, and I'm sure you have some strong opinions about the lodge, which goes with the territory when anyone addresses personal beliefs, but your answer did not address the challenge I offered. I spoke of offering me some kind of proof by the actions of any Masons you know that would offer support, and instead you offer me the words of a 32nd degree Mason, and the words of Mr. Pike, which are very often misquoted, misapplied, and greatly misunderstood. Nevertheless, I will address the particulars you raise.
I'm sure if Mr. Pike had known that excerpts of his discourse on the subject would be lifted out and applied as you have done, he would have worded it differently. IMO, (1) you lend too much weight to "misled" and "false" in this instance, and (2) you divorce this very short piece from a discussion of several pages in which the overall picture thus gets eclipsed. On the page just before the one you lifted that quote from, Pike has just said:
The only thing he intends to portray in that entire discussion is that one must become proficient in understanding the symbolism before undertaking the higher degrees. It is no different a concept within Freemasonry than is the same idea expressed by Saint Paul when he speaks of giving his readers milk, because they were not yet ready for strong meat, or by Peter when he said Paul wrote some things that were hard to understand, and that those who were "unlearned" were twisting to their own detriment.
I was criticized for expressing a similar circumstance as a new Christian in much the same terms, telling someone of God leading me in a particular direction, only to find out later that the goal I perceived Him leading me towards was not the goal which He ultimately directed me to. My expression to this man was that God had "misled" me intentionally to accomplish His purpose. He scolded me and corrected me, "God doesn't intentionally mislead anyone, you misled yourself." But no matter which way it gets expressed, that God did it or that God allowed it, it amounts to the same thing, that God was behind it. A couple of years after that, an incident happened that once again reminded me of it. I left after finishing a Bible College, to another school to pursue an English degree, knowing for certain in my own mind that even though God had called me to be a minister, He was now directing me to pursue this degree and go back to the Bible College as a teacher. After completing the degree, I was faced with an agonizing decision, as I felt that I wanted to go from there to prepare for pastoral ministry--but I was so certain that God's will was what put me on the teaching path. Eventually it was made known to me that I was to go into ministry. And what I did not understand then, I understand fully now. For one thing, God was showing me how He can turn hearts around, because up until that point, I really didn't want to be a minister--in fact, I ran from it for many years. And as for the English thing, I'm sure it was all beneficial, but a course on literary criticism opened up incredible new avenues for me in critical thinking that has changed my entire perspective on the way I read, and had a profound effect on my understanding of Scripture.
Good question. I have a couple of even better questions: (1) If Masonry is supposed to be such a bad thing, and so incompatible with Christianity, why are there far more people who are in Freemasonry, from the higher degrees on down, who have no problem with maintaining their Christian faith and practice, and remain in the lodge? (2) Why do so many of those who have come out of Freemasonry exhibit such ungodly, unspiritual, attacking, intolerant, bitter and cynical temperaments?
When I first began to investigate Freemasonry to settle some issues in my own mind, the antimasonic website at ephesians5-11.org was the first thing my browser pulled up. I went in with guns blazing, joining their position and gleefully shooting down the Masons' arguments. I came away a changed person, impressed with the quiet, calm, and confident manner of the Masons, and the ranting, raving, attacking manner of the moderators of the forum, who were mostly ex-masons. I found only one ex-mason who was an exception, with whom I remain close friends in spite of our disagreement. Even now, when I visit here and other boards, I am fine, when I go to their board once again, their negative mannerisms become infectious, and I have to get away from it and let my thoughts take a "bath," so to speak. I'd be very interested if you have an answer for why I find Christian traits exhibited so much better among Christian Masons than I do among Christian ex-Masons.
And I shall be waiting to see if you have a reply for my original challenge of showing me a pattern of evil behavior rather than resting your entire case upon the debatable concept of evil beliefs.
Wayne
Thanks for answering, and I'm sure you have some strong opinions about the lodge, which goes with the territory when anyone addresses personal beliefs, but your answer did not address the challenge I offered. I spoke of offering me some kind of proof by the actions of any Masons you know that would offer support, and instead you offer me the words of a 32nd degree Mason, and the words of Mr. Pike, which are very often misquoted, misapplied, and greatly misunderstood. Nevertheless, I will address the particulars you raise.
I'm sure if Mr. Pike had known that excerpts of his discourse on the subject would be lifted out and applied as you have done, he would have worded it differently. IMO, (1) you lend too much weight to "misled" and "false" in this instance, and (2) you divorce this very short piece from a discussion of several pages in which the overall picture thus gets eclipsed. On the page just before the one you lifted that quote from, Pike has just said:
The only thing he intends to portray in that entire discussion is that one must become proficient in understanding the symbolism before undertaking the higher degrees. It is no different a concept within Freemasonry than is the same idea expressed by Saint Paul when he speaks of giving his readers milk, because they were not yet ready for strong meat, or by Peter when he said Paul wrote some things that were hard to understand, and that those who were "unlearned" were twisting to their own detriment.
I was criticized for expressing a similar circumstance as a new Christian in much the same terms, telling someone of God leading me in a particular direction, only to find out later that the goal I perceived Him leading me towards was not the goal which He ultimately directed me to. My expression to this man was that God had "misled" me intentionally to accomplish His purpose. He scolded me and corrected me, "God doesn't intentionally mislead anyone, you misled yourself." But no matter which way it gets expressed, that God did it or that God allowed it, it amounts to the same thing, that God was behind it. A couple of years after that, an incident happened that once again reminded me of it. I left after finishing a Bible College, to another school to pursue an English degree, knowing for certain in my own mind that even though God had called me to be a minister, He was now directing me to pursue this degree and go back to the Bible College as a teacher. After completing the degree, I was faced with an agonizing decision, as I felt that I wanted to go from there to prepare for pastoral ministry--but I was so certain that God's will was what put me on the teaching path. Eventually it was made known to me that I was to go into ministry. And what I did not understand then, I understand fully now. For one thing, God was showing me how He can turn hearts around, because up until that point, I really didn't want to be a minister--in fact, I ran from it for many years. And as for the English thing, I'm sure it was all beneficial, but a course on literary criticism opened up incredible new avenues for me in critical thinking that has changed my entire perspective on the way I read, and had a profound effect on my understanding of Scripture.
Good question. I have a couple of even better questions: (1) If Masonry is supposed to be such a bad thing, and so incompatible with Christianity, why are there far more people who are in Freemasonry, from the higher degrees on down, who have no problem with maintaining their Christian faith and practice, and remain in the lodge? (2) Why do so many of those who have come out of Freemasonry exhibit such ungodly, unspiritual, attacking, intolerant, bitter and cynical temperaments?
When I first began to investigate Freemasonry to settle some issues in my own mind, the antimasonic website at ephesians5-11.org was the first thing my browser pulled up. I went in with guns blazing, joining their position and gleefully shooting down the Masons' arguments. I came away a changed person, impressed with the quiet, calm, and confident manner of the Masons, and the ranting, raving, attacking manner of the moderators of the forum, who were mostly ex-masons. I found only one ex-mason who was an exception, with whom I remain close friends in spite of our disagreement. Even now, when I visit here and other boards, I am fine, when I go to their board once again, their negative mannerisms become infectious, and I have to get away from it and let my thoughts take a "bath," so to speak. I'd be very interested if you have an answer for why I find Christian traits exhibited so much better among Christian Masons than I do among Christian ex-Masons.
And I shall be waiting to see if you have a reply for my original challenge of showing me a pattern of evil behavior rather than resting your entire case upon the debatable concept of evil beliefs.
Wayne
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Rev Wayne
Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Hmmmmmm. . . . . How illuminating!
And hey!....that makes 15 for me!
Now if I can only remember what it was they told me that meant when I registered......
Trust me, I don't have Alzheimer's, I just forget things. Some of my former habits are catching up with me, and I probably have a few synapses missing.
Wayne
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Lynn73
Jesus' lamb
I can't show you a patter of evil behavior among Masons. I don't doubt that there are many good men that belong to it. But I'm wondering does that mean that they aren't being deceived? Does that necessarily mean there's nothing wrong with Masonry just because good men belong to it. (Acutally, the Bible says that no one is good) Aren't there warnings in scripture about such? Have you studied all the Christians objections to masonry and are all the ex masons lying about the things they discovered that they didn't feel was compatible with their Christian testimony? Anyway, I appear to be in the minority at the moment so I probably ought to just bow out.Rev Wayne said:
I'm not that great at debating even though I do like to try. http://www.saintsalive.com/freemasonry.html
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billmcelligott
The Sojourner
Lynn please dont bow out , you get to the facts through debate . No one here is going to get heavy. Just want to make sure you have all the facts.Lynn73 said:Have you studied all the Christians objections to masonry and are all the ex masons lying about the things they discovered that they didn't feel was compatible with their Christian testimony? Anyway, I appear to be in the minority at the moment so I probably ought to just bow out.
http://www.saintsalive.com/freemasonry.html
Its really not a question of someone lieing. Its that they have adifferent point of view, one of my best pals is a Christian fundamentalist who is an Ex Mason . I have great respect for his views. I do not agree with them but, he has every right to hold them.
Please just say what you think, Sometimes I get things back to front. Debating is all about trial and error. If you dont try you will not get there.
Your views are as important as anybodies.
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Rev Wayne
Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Lynn73,
Sorry if I sound in any way like I'm coming down too heavy. I have been on the receiving end of that kind of discussion about as much as I can handle, which is one of the reasons I primarily post here now rather than continue at the ephesians5-11 site. I honestly can't help but wonder if there is demonic influence at that website. I say that because every time I go there, I get caught up in this web of attacking, making snide innuendoes, sidetracking from debate into personal insinuations, and basically just hurling insults back and forth. And it becomes almost addictive, a feverish thing, I tell myself just to ignore the next remark and to find another place to go, something else to do. Then I look at the post, and and another clever retort comes to mind, and we're off to the races again. The most recent time, it was beginning to affect everything I did. When I left, the taunting and the baiting were incredible, as they attempted to draw me back into the maze.
Bill said:
I do not level a charge of demonic influence very lightly, because I know what it is and what it feels like. There was a time once when I dealt with the presence of it that was so strong, I was trying to pray the Lord's prayer as a defense and protection, and could not even vocalize the words. Although the force there is not as strong, I do recognize its presence in the repeated cycles of addiction-like symptoms. I intend to stay away.
It was Bill and some other people who threw me a rope to hang onto. The attitude of the Masons I knew in there, along with the incredible Christian witness in the lives of some people in my life who it turns out were Masons, were the eventual convincing factors for me, not the weight of this or that doctrine. I'm afraid I just don't put much weight one way or the other based on doctrines that are supposedly against Freemasonry, but are debatable, or on rituals that are interpreted literally, but not symbolically as Masons say was intended. Jesus told us there is a better way:
NOT: "By their fruits you shall wonder about them"
NOT: "By their fruits you shall find Bible quotes to assail them with"
When I recognized the truth of these verses, that the good fruit you see in people has to have a good source, it cleared things up. It also helped me to realize that most of the key factors and influences that went into my own Christian upbringing and spirituality, were the direct result of strong Christian influence brought to bear by Masons. I could love it, I could hate it, whatever I chose to do with it, but the one thing I could not do, I found, was to deny it.
I say all this, and go into this detail, simply as a means of clarifying to you my own position, and also to let you know this is no hastily-considere, ill-conceived idea. I have no control over what you do with this or how you receive it, all I can do is share it as what I know to be the truth as I have received and experienced it. I of all people know what it is to be faced with the prospect of totally rejecting something you had come to believe with your whole heart. Believe me when I say that I understand what this kind of witness presents you with, as I have already had to face that and come to grips with the fact that the truth lay 180 degrees away from where I thought I had known it to be. And it did not happen in a day; actually, off and on, it was a process of over 10 years. Perhaps the best I can call on you and others of the same persuasion to do, is simply to keep an open mind, try to consider from a perspective not your own, and pray for God's discernment. That's not easy. And believe me, whatever direction you choose to go, I wish you the best, and you sincerely have my prayers.
Wayne
Sorry if I sound in any way like I'm coming down too heavy. I have been on the receiving end of that kind of discussion about as much as I can handle, which is one of the reasons I primarily post here now rather than continue at the ephesians5-11 site. I honestly can't help but wonder if there is demonic influence at that website. I say that because every time I go there, I get caught up in this web of attacking, making snide innuendoes, sidetracking from debate into personal insinuations, and basically just hurling insults back and forth. And it becomes almost addictive, a feverish thing, I tell myself just to ignore the next remark and to find another place to go, something else to do. Then I look at the post, and and another clever retort comes to mind, and we're off to the races again. The most recent time, it was beginning to affect everything I did. When I left, the taunting and the baiting were incredible, as they attempted to draw me back into the maze.
Bill said:
I know this man myself, and I know him as very close friend, even though we have never met. We railed back and forth at each other for a long time, until Bill opened his website, and when we went over there and continued things, suddenly everything reversed, we developed a very healthy respect for each other, and became best of friends. But not until we left there. I was impressed yesterday when I got an email from him, and hadn't heard from him for awhile. He told me his computer had crashed and he lost everything he had in it, but had gotten set up with a new one and could I please resend the pictures of my kids. I found that incredible for someone who has met neither me nor my kids. But not till we got out of that site.
I do not level a charge of demonic influence very lightly, because I know what it is and what it feels like. There was a time once when I dealt with the presence of it that was so strong, I was trying to pray the Lord's prayer as a defense and protection, and could not even vocalize the words. Although the force there is not as strong, I do recognize its presence in the repeated cycles of addiction-like symptoms. I intend to stay away.
It was Bill and some other people who threw me a rope to hang onto. The attitude of the Masons I knew in there, along with the incredible Christian witness in the lives of some people in my life who it turns out were Masons, were the eventual convincing factors for me, not the weight of this or that doctrine. I'm afraid I just don't put much weight one way or the other based on doctrines that are supposedly against Freemasonry, but are debatable, or on rituals that are interpreted literally, but not symbolically as Masons say was intended. Jesus told us there is a better way:
NOT: "by their fruits you shall suspect them"
NOT: "By their fruits you shall wonder about them"
NOT: "By their fruits you shall find Bible quotes to assail them with"
When I recognized the truth of these verses, that the good fruit you see in people has to have a good source, it cleared things up. It also helped me to realize that most of the key factors and influences that went into my own Christian upbringing and spirituality, were the direct result of strong Christian influence brought to bear by Masons. I could love it, I could hate it, whatever I chose to do with it, but the one thing I could not do, I found, was to deny it.
I say all this, and go into this detail, simply as a means of clarifying to you my own position, and also to let you know this is no hastily-considere, ill-conceived idea. I have no control over what you do with this or how you receive it, all I can do is share it as what I know to be the truth as I have received and experienced it. I of all people know what it is to be faced with the prospect of totally rejecting something you had come to believe with your whole heart. Believe me when I say that I understand what this kind of witness presents you with, as I have already had to face that and come to grips with the fact that the truth lay 180 degrees away from where I thought I had known it to be. And it did not happen in a day; actually, off and on, it was a process of over 10 years. Perhaps the best I can call on you and others of the same persuasion to do, is simply to keep an open mind, try to consider from a perspective not your own, and pray for God's discernment. That's not easy. And believe me, whatever direction you choose to go, I wish you the best, and you sincerely have my prayers.
Wayne
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Lynn73
Jesus' lamb
Thanks for sharing all that with me, Wayne. While I still can't in good conscience share your beliefs about masonry, I appreciate your post. I wish I'd brought one of my Christians books on the subject to work with me. There was something I wanted to share out of it but maybe you've heard it all before and give it no validity. But I've read statements by a couple of high masons; Pike, Crowley, etc. that I just can't reconcile with Christianity. Unfortunately, I'm on break at work and don't have time to go into all that.
You spoke of fruit. Well, in my opinion fruit can look real good on the outside, yet be rotten or poisoned on the inside and you never find out until you've ingested enough of it. Sure, there are lots of good guys who belong to the Masons who do lots of good things, but that still doesn't mean the organization or "craft" they've joined to is right.
Let me share a scripture than I'm sure others who don't believe Christians should be masons have already shared
2 Cor. 11:14-15
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Satan is skilled at even using scripture to get people to think they're in the right.
I have no idea why my font color has changed. I didn't do anything. Anyway, what about all the secrecy and oaths? Doesn't the Bible say not to make oaths, but let your nay be nay and your yea be yea?
Well, I have to go and I'm sure nothing I say will move you but that's okay. Each of us are free to believe what we want about something.
Best wishes and prayers to you.
You spoke of fruit. Well, in my opinion fruit can look real good on the outside, yet be rotten or poisoned on the inside and you never find out until you've ingested enough of it. Sure, there are lots of good guys who belong to the Masons who do lots of good things, but that still doesn't mean the organization or "craft" they've joined to is right.
Let me share a scripture than I'm sure others who don't believe Christians should be masons have already shared
2 Cor. 11:14-15
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Satan is skilled at even using scripture to get people to think they're in the right.
I have no idea why my font color has changed. I didn't do anything. Anyway, what about all the secrecy and oaths? Doesn't the Bible say not to make oaths, but let your nay be nay and your yea be yea?
Well, I have to go and I'm sure nothing I say will move you but that's okay. Each of us are free to believe what we want about something.
Best wishes and prayers to you.
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Plan 9
Absolutely Elsewhere
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No, I didn't expect that it would, but I thought you might like to know.Lynn73 said:Thx for the suggestion. I may put that name in the search engine when I get time. It doesn't, of course, affect my belief about masonry.
I have read here that some of the Crowley links posted at CF have been removed by the staff, even when they were biographical overviews, so I hesitate to post any myself.
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Lynn73
Jesus' lamb
In my searching on info about Crowley and also Pike, I came across a very interesting site I'd like to share. The dissertation has 22 pages and is a long read. After each page go to the bottom ad click on "next." For those who might desire to, that is.
http://www.holybiblesays.org/articles/mason1.htm
I'll probably continue to look around and see what I can find on Pike and Crowley.
http://www.holybiblesays.org/articles/mason1.htm
I'll probably continue to look around and see what I can find on Pike and Crowley.
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Ordo Templi Orientis.....weren't they freemasons? they were the ones affiliated somehow with Crowley. (who started the order of the Silver Star which is probably why people think he is part of freemasons, maybe they are confusing that) anyway.....OTO was involved with some heavy magick i thought...that isn't exactly christian, is it?? I will look up this info and see what I can find.
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