What is a fair punishment for murderers?

[Robban]

Hey Robban,

Excuse my ignorance but I’m not aware of Rabbi Akiva. He may have been a great man, but I do know that Moses had people killed for not honoring the Sabbath. An offense that we moderns think is a MUCH smaller deal that taking someone’s life. Moses was right for what he did and someone that goes against Moses is likely on the wrong side on the issue

We must remember that God sanctioned genocide so His children can live in the land He promised them.

I am confused on if you’re saying that we are the community that understands right and wrong or if we don’t and also if you are saying a society that follows Torah does not understand right and wrong.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant from the giving of Torah and on, Jewish communities.

Follow Torah?

At Sinai we all said (Israel) as in one voice, "We will do and we will hear"

( first do, and we will then understand).

Hope I am not confusing you still more.

 

[JamesTW]

While I’m not quite sure I understand, I will respond with what I believe you are speaking to.

I agree that enforcing God’s Law has some issues since we are not a Godly people at large. However, I don’t believe that should stop the government from enforcing it.

Upon Christ’s return, rivers will flow the blood of the heathen. That is to imply A LOT of death. Death that is caused by the righteous judgment of God using the Law as a measuring device. Although, I believe that even then He will show great mercy, even to the unbelieving.

 

[Runningman]

Rehabilitation is one of the duties of prison, at least in the UK. It is not taken seriously enough in that not enough resources are dedicated to it but it is enshrined in the law. In the case of murder all those convicted* must be sentenced to life imprisonment; the sentencing judge must set a tariff, a minimum term which must be served in prison. This term is the retributive aspect of the sentence.

After serving this period prisoners may be paroled; they can serve the rest of their lives on licence outside of prison. A parole board has the power to decide on whether the prisoner has been rehabilitated - that is, no longer a danger to the public. Prisoners on licencecan be recalled by a supervisor who will be a probation officer if the terms of the licence are broken.

* Except for 'whole life' tariffs.

It is not virtue signalling. It is a humane measure intended to provide a limited degree of freedom for convicts who are no longer dangerous.

I meant truly rehabilitated, not "rehabilitated" based on a board decision. We're talking about people who lived on the outside up until they made the deliberate decision to murder someone. Going to jail doesn't actually address the root cause(s) that lead people to murder someone. These are often deeply troubled people who reached a breaking point or have mental/emotional illnesses.

When I said they should be rehabilitated and released, I meant their institutionalization should actually cure them or heal them enough to set them on the right track. Years in prison then released with a bad record, unemployable, the loss of public trust, and generally nothing to lose, on top of the still unresolved issues, isn't humane. That was a waste of time and money just to label it justice. That's not humane if stripping someone of their ability to survive meets the same end as capital punishment. That's why that's virtue signaling. Either fix someone and do it right or quit perpetuating the societal rot by keeping these people around behind the guise of so-called justice.

 

[Pommer]

I meant truly rehabilitated, not "rehabilitated" based on a board decision. We're talking about people who lived on the outside up until they made the deliberate decision to murder someone. Going to jail doesn't actually address the root cause(s) that lead people to murder someone. These are often deeply troubled people who reached a breaking point or have mental/emotional illnesses.

When I said they should be rehabilitated and released, I meant their institutionalization should actually cure them or heal them enough to set them on the right track. Years in prison then released with a bad record, unemployable, the loss of public trust, and generally nothing to lose, on top of the still unresolved issues, isn't humane. That was a waste of time and money just to label it justice. That's not humane if stripping someone of their ability to survive meets the same end as capital punishment. That's why that's virtue signaling. Either fix someone and do it right or quit perpetuating the societal rot by keeping these people around behind the guise of so-called justice.

Rehabilitation = goals set, goals met (oddly, usually while in gaol).
What people do after they are released from incarceration and supervision is a crap shoot though and many find security of the regimented and totally (mostly) controlled environment of prison and will commit crimes to return, (even if they don’t know why they’re doing it).

 

[Diamond72]

While the lady in this case likely did not mean to kill the elderly lady,

Manslaughter is a different crime from first degree murder. Also what do we do with doctors when they kill a patient because of a mistake that they made? People need to be held accountable.

 

[Diamond72]

When I said they should be rehabilitated and released, I meant their institutionalization should actually cure them or heal them enough to set them on the right track.

Not a lot of research has been done on this. The primitive part of the brain can be violent. It is the outer layers or the more developed part of the brain that controls the more primitive part. It is possible though and it can be done. We are just not quite sure how to go about it. Esp when we are dealing with the hood and the inner city. Education seems to have a lot to do with it though.

 

[Whyayeman]

I meant truly rehabilitated, not "rehabilitated" based on a board decision.

Well, the board's decision is based on an assessment of risk - how likely is the prisoner to murder again? The thinking is that, having done the retributive part of the sentence ordered by the judge, the board makes a decision to allow a degree of freedom. The system works well as far as murder cases go. Very few - almost none of them - kill again.

I think it is beyond the scope of a parole board to decide on how 'truly' rehabilitated somebody is. In practical terms the parole system has merit. It allows rehabiltitated prisoners to live a useful life and contribute to society. They are once again able to work, support a family and so on, just like the rest of us.

That is better for everybody than rotting in prison until death ends their misery.

 

[JamesTW]

Manslaughter is a different crime from first degree murder. Also what do we do with doctors when they kill a patient because of a mistake that they made? People need to be held accountable.

The American “justice” system has created grey area in the matter. According to Moses, there are only two types or killings. Numbers 35:21 shows us that if you are aggressive towards someone and kill then (even unintentionally) you are to be put to death for murder. The Law deams this woman a murderer.

The situation with the doctor you bring up would generally be classified under Numbers 35:22-25; the doctor would not be held accountable (by the nation) for the death.

The Law was given to us as a blessing. The fact that God’s people no longer respect it causes terrible pain and suffering.

 

[Robban]

The American “justice” system has created grey area in the matter. According to Moses, there are only two types or killings. Numbers 35:21 shows us that if you are aggressive towards someone and kill then (even unintentionally) you are to be put to death for murder. The Law deams this woman a murderer.

The situation with the doctor you bring up would generally be classified under Numbers 35:22-25; the doctor would not be held accountable (by the nation) for the death.

The Law was given to us as a blessing. The fact that God’s people no longer respect it causes terrible pain and suffering.

No.
Deuteronomy 19:1-13, Numbers 35:9-28, Joshua 20:1-9

Thank God the Sadusees were expelled from the Sanhedrin.

 

[Pommer]

The American “justice” system has created grey area in the matter. According to Moses, there are only two types or killings. Numbers 35:21 shows us that if you are aggressive towards someone and kill then (even unintentionally) you are to be put to death for murder. The Law deams this woman a murderer.

The situation with the doctor you bring up would generally be classified under Numbers 35:22-25; the doctor would not be held accountable (by the nation) for the death.

The Law was given to us as a blessing. The fact that God’s people no longer respect it causes terrible pain and suffering.

Hi welcome to CF!
Christianity 101
There One rule (fail)
There’s 758 rules (fail)
Forget about the rules be nice to one another, (ongoing)

Have a fine day!

 

[JamesTW]

No.
Deuteronomy 19:1-13, Numbers 35:9-28, Joshua 20:1-9

Thank God the Sadusees were expelled from the Sanhedrin.

I’m not sure what you’re meaning by “No”. I agree about the need for the refuge cities. It’s certainly hard to uphold one end of the Law when the other end is being trampled on but it shouldn’t feminism our desire to see the Law upheld.

 

[JamesTW]

Hi welcome to CF!
Christianity 101
There One rule (fail)
There’s 758 rules (fail)
Forget about the rules be nice to one another, (ongoing)

Have a fine day!

Thanks Pommer. I appreciate the welcoming. I look forward to discussing life’s issues with a broader group of people than I’ve subjected myself to in the past.

The “rules” are some we should care greatly about because God told us to. If we decide that those rules aren’t a concern, we are showing God that what He thinks or says does not matter.

The typical American Christian’s mentality is “love one another”. While that is good, it begs the question: “what is love?” The Law is love. The Law shows us how to love. If we don’t follows these “rules” we won’t show love. At least not the same love that God talks about. In John 13:35, Jesus tells us people should know that we are a true follower of Him by the way we love each other. If we loved each other the same way an atheist loves others, how would anyone be able to tell us apart? It is through the Law that we show love, just as this woman should be judged. After death, Jesus will judge her soul as He sees fit but it is our job to follow the Law here on Earth.

 

[Pommer]

Thanks Pommer. I appreciate the welcoming. I look forward to discussing life’s issues with a broader group of people than I’ve subjected myself to in the past.

The “rules” are some we should care greatly about because God told us to. If we decide that those rules aren’t a concern, we are showing God that what He thinks or says does not matter.

The typical American Christian’s mentality is “love one another”. While that is good, it begs the question: “what is love?” The Law is love. The Law shows us how to love. If we don’t follows these “rules” we won’t show love. At least not the same love that God talks about. In John 13:35, Jesus tells us people should know that we are a true follower of Him by the way we love each other. If we loved each other the same way an atheist loves others, how would anyone be able to tell us apart? It is through the Law that we show love, just as this woman should be judged. After death, Jesus will judge her soul as He sees fit but it is our job to follow the Law here on Earth.

That’s nice, I’m a “deist” (if one ticks the circle under the avatar our info emerges).
I used to be a Christian and find myself describing myself as a “dead-again Christian”: the only “god” I’ll cop to worshiping is our Old Friend Sol, which is the thing that we KNOW drives life upon this planet.
There is no “afterlife” there’s just this here-and-now.
Enjoy what you can, love as best as you can, forget about “the law”; “free-will” is an illusion, much like time or matter.

 

[JamesTW]

That’s nice, I’m a “deist” (if one ticks the circle under the avatar our info emerges).
I used to be a Christian and find myself describing myself as a “dead-again Christian”: the only “god” I’ll cop to worshiping is our Old Friend Sol, which is the thing that we KNOW drives life upon this planet.
There is no “afterlife” there’s just this here-and-now.
Enjoy what you can, love as best as you can, forget about “the law”; “free-will” is an illusion, much like time or matter.

Obviously a bit off topic, but do you mind me asking why you’re on this website. I assume you’ve made up your mind about God. Are you looking to see if someone can change your mind? Or maybe looking to change others minds? Or are you just looking to be the one always going against the grain?

 

[Pommer]

Obviously a bit off topic, but do you mind me asking why you’re on this website. I assume you’ve made up your mind about God. Are you looking to see if someone can change your mind? Or maybe looking to change others minds? Or are you just looking to be the one always going against the grain?

I like discussion and debate without a lot of rancor and animosity…and inertia.
You’ll get to have heaven filled with like minded individuals so this is your only chance to hobnob with us heathen, think of it as a “public service” I’m doing for you!

Have a great night!

 

[Occams Barber]

Obviously a bit off topic, but do you mind me asking why you’re on this website. I assume you’ve made up your mind about God. Are you looking to see if someone can change your mind? Or maybe looking to change others minds? Or are you just looking to be the one always going against the grain?

Welcome to CF James.

You will find that there's a small group of non-Christians (atheists, agnostics, deists, other religions) on CF. Our access is limited to a few social forums and an open set of Discussion and Debate forums. You'll normally find us hanging around the (open) Science forums and politics. Many of us have been here for a decade or more and have become part of the wallpaper.

We're regularly asked why we're here. I'll leave @Pommer to explain his reasons but, to be honest, most of us are here for the half price drinks at the Friday afternoon Happy Hour.

OB

 

[Pommer]

Or are you just looking to be the one always going against the grain?

Isn’t this the draw in Christianity? [FOMO]
The narrow path?; the wise virgins?; entering through the (only) gate?

 

[JamesTW]

Isn’t this the draw in Christianity? [FOMO]
The narrow path?; the wise virgins?; entering through the (only) gate?

That’s unfortunate.

 

[Runningman]

Well, the board's decision is based on an assessment of risk - how likely is the prisoner to murder again? The thinking is that, having done the retributive part of the sentence ordered by the judge, the board makes a decision to allow a degree of freedom. The system works well as far as murder cases go. Very few - almost none of them - kill again.

I think it is beyond the scope of a parole board to decide on how 'truly' rehabilitated somebody is. In practical terms the parole system has merit. It allows rehabiltitated prisoners to live a useful life and contribute to society. They are once again able to work, support a family and so on, just like the rest of us.

That is better for everybody than rotting in prison until death ends their misery.

I think if we look hard enough, we can find an exception to just about anything. Generally speaking, a murderer's life is irreparable ruined when/if they are released from jail. What's the point.

 

[Larniavc]

We have members on here who have various views on whether or not we should have the death penalty.

I will summarize this video
The person in the video murdered an elderly victim, this was unprovoked and completely random
For that crime the judge figured that 8 years would be a sufficient punishment

What do you think of that? Would you feel uncomfortable about a society letting known murderers walk free eventually?

We need to also think here for a moment that since this attack was unprovoked and random, it could have been anybody. And the victim that died was somebody's grandparent.

So I ask all that answers this question to put yourself in the shoes of the grieving family.

It depends on the murder. But the death penalty should never be in play because mistakes seems to be far too common. Having the odd innocent person executed is not a fair price for probably executing guilty people.