What impact did the FALL of Adam have ?

[cygnusx1]

Some view mankind as a unity , a family , an organic living inter-dependant group , with the first man's actions and consequences carried through to the rest .

Others view the first man as nothing more than an individual , and everyone else as an individual , with no ongoing consequences by one man effecting the rest . They would say how Adam was in Eden , created good and upright with free-will is exactly how everyone is created ........ with no bias , no preference and no inclination towards sin. This would be the Pelagian arguement , no man needs God's Grace because he has been created just as Adam , perfect with a free-will.


but how does the scriptures portray man after the fall ?

Gen.6:5

"That the wickedness of man WAS GREAT on the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART was ONLY EVIL continually."

Ps.51:5

"Behold, I was shapen IN INIQUITY, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer.17:9

"The heart is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and DESPERATELY WICKED."

Mark 7:21-22

"For from within, out of the heart of man , proceed EVIL THOUGHTS, ADULTERIES, FORNICATIONS, MURDERS, THEFTS, COVETOUSNESS, WICKEDNESS, DECEIT, LASCIVIOUSNESS, AN EVIL EYE, BLASPHEMY, PRIDE, FOOLISHNESS."

Rom.3:10-

"Is it is written (Ps.14 & 53), There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: There is NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD..... there are NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE.... their Throat is an OPEN SEPULCHRE."

We are DEAD IN SIN, WICKED, EVIL, DECEITFUL, and are NOT SEEKING GOD or DOING GOOD. Sure, in mans eyes we may think we are seeking him and doing good, but in GOD's eyes we are as filthy rags. We do not do a single work that is thoroughly pleasing to God. Apart from God we can do nothing (John 15:4-5). Man does have free will, in a sense, but will ALWAYS CHOOSE AGAINST GOD because of his depraved nature.

John 6:44

"NO MAN can come to me EXCEPT the Father which hath sent Me DRAW HIM.".

If it was my FREE WILL that caused me to turn to Christ, then somehow I am a little bit better than my unsaved neighbor. If I responded to the Gospel while my neighbor did not then I can receive a tiny bit of credit, even though I know that my salvation depends upon what Christ has done.

There are some Bible passages that apparently teach that we have FREE WILL, but those passages must agree with the rest of the Bible.

Rev. 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. 'IF' any man HEAR MY VOICE and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with Me."

Notice it says, "IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE." Can a DEAD MAN HEAR the voice of God? That is what we are before we are saved, DEAD in SINS. God must give us the SPIRITUAL EARS if He is drawing us to Himself. Rev. 3:20 is not teaching free will in any way. If we have been given the SPIRITUAL EARS to hear, then we will respond. Is man's soul just a little sick or injured but nevertheless alive? NO! Man is DEAD IN SINS AND TRESPASSES!
http://www.norwich.net/~ickes/deprave.htm

 

[MadHermit]

There is no doubt that each member mankind is wicked, deceitful, and lost from the moment of conception. What do you make of these verses?

Rom 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
(NKJ)

Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
(NKJ)

If everyone has at least a basic knowledge and understanding of God, and if everyone has some measure of faith, and if salvation begins with the act of investing that faith into that knowledge, then is there a choice made, an act of will to do so, or does it simply happen or not happen irrespective of our choice or will?

 

[Rubicon]

Notice it says, "IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE." Can a DEAD MAN HEAR the voice of God?

Yes.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It says they that hear shall live, not they that have been given life shall hear and live.

The dead hear and believe and then are given life.

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

It says they that hear shall live, not they that have been given life shall hear and live.

The dead hear and believe and then are given life.

let him who has ears hear what etc indicates hearing on two different levels , many hear and hear nothing.

and resurrection preceeds hearing ;

The hour is coming and, and now is here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.

 

[Rubicon]

let him who has ears hear what etc indicates hearing on two different levels , many hear and hear nothing.

In that passage, Jesus goes on to say:

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

They hear but do not perceive, they see but have closed their eyes to what they see - they do not want to understand with their heart, and do not turn to God to be healed.

They do not want to be healed because they have "waxed their hearts gross," they have hardened their hearts, they have closed their eyes and do not turn to Him.

They do not turn to Him in faith to receive a new heart:

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

The psalmist is asking for a new heart, because he knows that his heart is unclean.

Those whose "hearts have waxed gross" do not want a new heart and do not turn to Him, they do not perceive nor understand that they are in need of a new heart.

 

[Rubicon]

and now is here

The time is coming, and now is here. The dead hearing is not restricted to the end of times.

The time now is here as well that the dead hear.

 

[cygnusx1]

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


yes that's a good beginning... and this condition God placed upon them lest they should perceive and believe and turn and repent.

for a fuller understanding on Spiritual verses natural hearing ;

Let Him Who Has Ears, Listen

(Mt.11:15, 13:9,43, Rev.2:7)

Michael Quicke


http://www.preaching.org/features/display_feature/6

 

[Rubicon]

yes that's a good beginning... and this condition God placed upon them lest they should perceive and believe and turn and repent.

Jesus goes on to say why they don't turn and repent:

Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

They themselves have closed their eyes - at any time they could turn to Him and be healed.

 

[cygnusx1]

The time is coming, and now is here. The dead hearing is not restricted to the end of times.

The time now is here as well that the dead hear.

go back to the time Christ spoke that word , at that time when Christ spoke the dead were raised to hear and be saved , salvation is a resurrection. the dead don't have ears to hear Christ , only his Sheep hear his voice and follow him.

 

[themuzicman]

Why does this become a free will debate? If one cannot come to Christ, then that's a limited ability problem, not a free will problem.

If God's drawing makes one able to come to Christ, as John 6:44 says, and that those who hear and learn from the Father in response to His teaching believe, then a free will choice is requires to respond.

Muz

 

[vekarppe]

If God's drawing makes one able to come to Christ, as John 6:44 says, and that those who hear and learn from the Father in response to His teaching believe, then a free will choice is requires to respond.

You are right, and even most Calvinists can agree with you. According to their opinion, the unregenerate are never forced against their will. Our respond is a free will choice. But I myself find it a bit rude that in Reformed Theology God "reprograms" sinners so that he makes them to do what they wouldn't otherwise do by using their free will.

 

[Ormly]

Can anyone define "God's drawing"?

 

[cygnusx1]

What impact did the FALL of Adam have on you ?

 

[Ormly]

It that what it means?

 

[Episcopius]

At times the word drawing can be used for physical compulsion, but I don't think that's the case here. Even Calvinists think God changes one's will, not that we are saved despite our will.

John 6:45 seems to indicate that drawing is parallel to the Father's teaching.

God bless,
Dan

 

[Thekla]

What impact did the FALL of Adam have on you ?

I'm gonna die

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm gonna die

is that it ?


howabout your gonna sin from birth ?

 

[Ormly]

is that it ?


howabout your gonna sin from birth ?

Who sez, that it can taken God declared it to be so . . Augustine?

 

[cygnusx1]

Who sez, that it can taken God declared it to be so . . Augustine?

scripture.

try David the King.

if the sin nature is not inherited , how do you account for the entire human race being sinners , surely a large percentage ought to be upright , holy and free of sin.

also how is it children sin from the earliest of days ?

if you are opposed to Augustines view are you not a heretic believing in the opposite view , the Pelegian view?

 

[Ormly]

scripture.

try David the King.

if the sin nature is not inherited , how do you account for the entire human race being sinners , surely a large percentage ought to be upright , holy and free of sin.

I don'tt and a large percentage of them are blameless in the sight of God.

also how is it children sin from the earliest of days ?

I don't know to understand that kind of king's english. Try again.

if you are opposed to Augustines view are you not a heretic believing in the opposite view , the Pelegian view?

Pelegian was a holy man of God. His view was held for years, until Augustine's influence persuaded to the contrary. So who is Augustine that he should persuade anyone?