What if?

[TheBellman]

For someone who is "not trying to change anyone opinion" you seem to have spent a great deal of time doing just that. I understand that your viewpoint is backed by personal experience but you could just as easily be a person saying: "At 14, I had only ever done what I was told to do and when I got pregnant I was told there was no choice, I was going to have a daughter. After my parents kicked me out, I started drinking and I moved in with a physical abusive man to survive, and I took that out on my child - beating it and breaking bones which resulted in the child being taken away by family services I can now say that......."

The problem is that as much as people against abortion would like to make this into an absolutely crystal clear situation - it isn't - How can you ask a person to "go back" to being a bunch of split DNA strands which haven't even created organs yet, much less a brain - you might as well be asking people to "go back" to being a carbon atom or a sperm. If you want to talk about "responsibility" then why not address why it is that the US is the number one per captia western country with unwanted pregnancies. And why is it when countries like the UK have 6,000 children up for adoption, when EU countries have so few children up for adoption people (including Canadians) are trying to get US children, of whom there is over 1/2 million waiting to be adopted - but they aren't the right age, or colour, or from the right background, or have the physical conditions to make them "desirable" - Is the US as a "Christian" country going to be "responsible"?

And then we get to the incredibly high rate of rape, sexual abuse and incest - which will occur to around 400,000 US women THIS YEAR ALONE. Currently, most states have what is known as an "incest clause" which means that if you are raped by your father or sibling, then they will serve little to no time at all (for the good of the family) - you can go to RAAIN or other sites if you wish to learn more - but yet, I don't see groups of protest lead from Christian organizations outside governor mansions holding up signs with pictures of 8, 9 and 11 year old girls, blood pouring out of thier ripped genetalia - nor, when presenting these cases is the question of rape and incest generally considered at all - if we are to talk about RESPONSIBILITY - do we want little girls to make sure that "daddy's" baby is brought to term? Well, apparently the good christian folks in South Dakota do find it crystal clear - since thier criminalization of abortion criminalizes women who are raped and victims of incest right along with anyone else (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/22/AR2006022202424.html).

The problem is that the whole subject's taboo nature makes it so that we have a nation which is avoiding responsibility by not addressing the problem in it's entirety - where groups and (depending who is in power) semi-government agencies say that God wants those divided cells to become a child, regardless - yet does not ensure that the woman in that position is secure for the next 9 months, has enough to eat for the next 9 months, is able to physically or emotionally take care of themselves much less an infant nor are currently willing to step in and ensure a standard quality of life for all these infants they have fought so hard to have be born in the first place - a policy which tells 2 day old babies, "Hey I got you here, it's all up to you now" is either one which is playing "See no evil; take no responsibility", is one that is calloused and carrying more about being "right" than actual humans or just a combination of naive and willing ignorance.

If an angel showed up and told me I was going to be a fetus to prove some sort of point to people - I would tell the angel to grow up and spend a little more time helping out the wretched lives of the children who were already here first.

Wow. Just wow. What a great post.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

For someone who is "not trying to change anyone opinion" you seem to have spent a great deal of time doing just that. I understand that your viewpoint is backed by personal experience but you could just as easily be a person saying: "At 14, I had only ever done what I was told to do and when I got pregnant I was told there was no choice, I was going to have a daughter. After my parents kicked me out, I started drinking and I moved in with a physical abusive man to survive, and I took that out on my child - beating it and breaking bones which resulted in the child being taken away by family services I can now say that......."

The problem is that as much as people against abortion would like to make this into an absolutely crystal clear situation - it isn't - How can you ask a person to "go back" to being a bunch of split DNA strands which haven't even created organs yet, much less a brain - you might as well be asking people to "go back" to being a carbon atom or a sperm. If you want to talk about "responsibility" then why not address why it is that the US is the number one per captia western country with unwanted pregnancies. And why is it when countries like the UK have 6,000 children up for adoption, when EU countries have so few children up for adoption people (including Canadians) are trying to get US children, of whom there is over 1/2 million waiting to be adopted - but they aren't the right age, or colour, or from the right background, or have the physical conditions to make them "desirable" - Is the US as a "Christian" country going to be "responsible"?

And then we get to the incredibly high rate of rape, sexual abuse and incest - which will occur to around 400,000 US women THIS YEAR ALONE. Currently, most states have what is known as an "incest clause" which means that if you are raped by your father or sibling, then they will serve little to no time at all (for the good of the family) - you can go to RAAIN or other sites if you wish to learn more - but yet, I don't see groups of protest lead from Christian organizations outside governor mansions holding up signs with pictures of 8, 9 and 11 year old girls, blood pouring out of thier ripped genetalia - nor, when presenting these cases is the question of rape and incest generally considered at all - if we are to talk about RESPONSIBILITY - do we want little girls to make sure that "daddy's" baby is brought to term? Well, apparently the good christian folks in South Dakota do find it crystal clear - since thier criminalization of abortion criminalizes women who are raped and victims of incest right along with anyone else (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/22/AR2006022202424.html).

The problem is that the whole subject's taboo nature makes it so that we have a nation which is avoiding responsibility by not addressing the problem in it's entirety - where groups and (depending who is in power) semi-government agencies say that God wants those divided cells to become a child, regardless - yet does not ensure that the woman in that position is secure for the next 9 months, has enough to eat for the next 9 months, is able to physically or emotionally take care of themselves much less an infant nor are currently willing to step in and ensure a standard quality of life for all these infants they have fought so hard to have be born in the first place - a policy which tells 2 day old babies, "Hey I got you here, it's all up to you now" is either one which is playing "See no evil; take no responsibility", is one that is calloused and carrying more about being "right" than actual humans or just a combination of naive and willing ignorance.

If an angel showed up and told me I was going to be a fetus to prove some sort of point to people - I would tell the angel to grow up and spend a little more time helping out the wretched lives of the children who were already here first.

I see that you are a Christian so I assume you've read the Bible. The one that says "Thou shall not kill." It doesn't say, Thou shall not kill except when...
or
Thou shall not kill unless it becomes a problem for society, then go ahead and kill because of X, Y and Z (insert justification here)

There's no escape clause in that commandment. If you call yourself a Christian and still think abortion is okay, you need to rethink your religion because you might need to join forces with Al Queda. They like to kill people too because they see us as being unecessary human life full of evil. Maybe you will be in the next place they decide to attack and you'll be at the mercy of a person more powerful than you who wants to take your life for his own personal reasons.

Also, when you say we should help the children who are already here...that's a wonderful sentiment. Do you do that? If so, how?

 

[Vylo]

There is no answer to this question.

If you were a fetus in your mother's womb you wouldn't have the capacity to have an opinion on the subject, and depending on the stage of development, you wouldn't even possess any thought process whatsoever.

 

[mpshiel]

And then you say we should help the children who are already here...that's great. Do you do that? If so, how?

I fail to understand how by trying to demonstrate that there are many different experiences of this issue and that is it not as crystal clear as one might wish it to be ends up with me, my life and my actions being on trial but so be it:

I have and continue to work with UN world AIDS day which effects around about 10 million children worldwide including organizing the capital city events

I work with asylum seekers to ensure that children and women without other options are not deported directly into a life of prostitution

I write articles and papers to increase understanding of incest, sexual abuse, and rape as well as the consequences which come from them (such as 66% of prostitutes who were abused reporting it coming from a father figure - father or step father) and destigmatize the topics themselves.

I recently gained approval from the British Government for a petition to free the Libyian AIDS workers who, by volunteering to work on AIDS children have been sentenced to death

I work with organizations to keep LGBT youth safe at home and in schools since currently 46% of homeless youth are LGBT (According to this months study).

I have and continue to work both nationally and internationally on the issue of youth suicide

I publish articles to help encourage girls into sports, which has shown to have one of the largest positive effects on lower income youth.

I help mentor teens, I visit hospitals, I give seminars for government offices, I work to give voices to overlooked minors in society particularly sex workers. I counsel girls with eating disorders. I work with teens who self harm.

That enough, or do I need to dig deeper?

 

[flicka]

I see that you are a Christian so I assume you've read the Bible. The one that says "Thou shall not kill." It doesn't say, Thou shall not kill except when...
or
Thou shall not kill unless it becomes a problem for society, then go ahead and kill because of X, Y and Z (insert justification here)

I'd almost agree with you if there were not so many Christians willing to support war or impose the death penalty.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

I'd almost agree with you if there were not so many Christians willing to support war or impose the death penalty.

The death penalty is to punish those convicted of crimes. What crime has the unborn committed? On the other hand, wars are fought by grown men & women who chose enlist in the military fully aware that they might one day go to war. Innocent, unborn children don't have a fighting chance against us.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

I fail to understand how by trying to demonstrate that there are many different experiences of this issue and that is it not as crystal clear as one might wish it to be ends up with me, my life and my actions being on trial but so be it:

You summed it up in your first sentence when you said, "I fail to understand.."

And what I think you fail to understand is that once abortion was made legal in this country child abuse rates skyrocketed. We are sending the message to people that killing the unborn is okay. The message that children are disposable property. First it was abortion then came partial birth abortions, which is an evil I can't even begin to fathom. What's next? Abortion is not the answer to societies problems. I honestly think that most women are ignorant of what an abortion really entails. A lot of women change their minds when they see the pictures of aborted fetuses. Why? Because the pictures speak for themselves.

 

[Belk]

You summed it up in your first sentence when you said, "I fail to understand.."

And what I think you fail to understand is that once abortion was made legal in this country child abuse rates skyrocketed. We are sending the message to people that killing the unborn is okay.

A) You have provide no proof that the two are linked. Corelation does not equal causation.

The message that children are disposable property. First it was abortion then came partial birth abortions, which is an evil I can't even begin to fathom. What's next? Abortion is not the answer to societies problems. I honestly think that most women are ignorant of what an abortion really entails. A lot of women change their minds when they see the pictures of aborted fetuses. Why? Because the pictures speak for themselves.

B) Mpshiel posted a well thought out post, to which your reply was to question her faith and then demand to know what she was doing to correct the things she saw as wrong. Do you have no other response to the many valid points she brought up?

 

[Belk]

I see that you are a Christian so I assume you've read the Bible. The one that says "Thou shall not kill." It doesn't say, Thou shall not kill except when...

The death penalty is to punish those convicted of crimes. What crime has the unborn committed? On the other hand, wars are fought by grown men & women who chose enlist in the military fully aware that they might one day go to war. Innocent, unborn children don't have a fighting chance against us.

So it would seem that there are times when it is OK for a Christian to kill.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

A) You have provide no proof that the two are linked. Corelation does not equal causation.



B) Mpshiel posted a well thought out post, to which your reply was to question her faith and then demand to know what she was doing to correct the things she saw as wrong. Do you have no other response to the many valid points she brought up?

I have no response to excuses.

 

[loveiseverywhere]

So it would seem that there are times when it is OK for a Christian to kill.

I didn't say it was ok. I said there was a CHOICE involved. The fetus doesn't get that choice. A person sent to death row made the CHOICE to commit a crime. A fetus didn't commit a crime. I wasn't saying Capital Punishment was right or wrong. That's NOT the issue. The issue is not all that complex. Everyone wants to make it out to be but it's not.

In it's simplest form, it's violence against women and children for which there is no excuse. The irony of it all is exemplified by Norma McCorvey who openly admitted that she lied in Roe v. Wade and who is now a pro-life activist. This whole abortion mess began with a LIE. And who is the father of all lies?

Anyway, I have better things to do with my time than to argue with people who call themselves Chritians but advocate the death of innocent children. The blood is on your hands if you do nothing. You'll end up in hell asking yourself, "Gee, how did I get here?" You all ought to be ashamed to call yourselves Christians. I am leaving this forum for good, not that any of you care, my presence here is obviously not welcome as this seems to be a pro-choice forum. You are all sick sick sick. I'm wasting my time here.

In dealing with recovery issues of people addicted to drugs and alcohol, your arguments sound like people who don't want to stop using. They come up with all kinds of excuses why they use drugs and never take personal responsiblity. I know because I was one of them. I used to think abortion was okay too, until Christ came into my life.

If any one of you thinks for one second that Jesus himself would advocate abortion, then you've been misled.

People, wake up. This is spiritual warfare. The devil himself infected your thinking with arguments that you think sound logical but in reality are obviously evil to anyone with a conscience.

Like I said, I'm done here. I'm tired of all the excuses and the lies.

 

[Belk]

I didn't say it was ok. I said there was a CHOICE involved. The fetus doesn't get that choice. A person sent to death row made the CHOICE to commit a crime. A fetus didn't commit a crime. I wasn't saying Capital Punishment was right or wrong. That's NOT the issue.

Not the issue? I must be missing something then. If it is not OK to kill them then how does making a choice make any difference?

The issue is not all that complex. Everyone wants to make it out to be but it's not.

It seems to me that it is complex. If it was not there would not be such a large amount of controversy surrounding it.

In it's simplest form, it's violence against women and children for which there is no excuse. The irony of it all is exemplified by Norma McCorvey who openly admitted that she lied in Roe v. Wade and who is now a pro-life activist. This whole abortion mess began with a LIE. And who is the father of all lies?



Anyway, I have better things to do with my time than to argue with people who call themselves Chritians but advocate the death of innocent children. The blood is on your hands if you do nothing. You'll end up in hell asking yourself, "Gee, how did I get here?" You all ought to be ashamed to call yourselves Christians. I am leaving this forum for good, not that any of you care, my presence here is obviously not welcome as this seems to be a pro-choice forum. You are all sick sick sick. I'm wasting my time here.

A) You are not in the Christian only section

B) I am not a Christian

C) I believe abortion is wrong. However I do not think making it illegal will stop it. I think that the way to stop abortion is to make it so that no one feels the need to have an abortion.

D) If you come to a debate forum expect people to debate you

E) If you go somewhere and condemn and castigate people simply because they do not believe the same as you do not expect a warm welcome.

In dealing with recovery issues of people addicted to drugs and alcohol, your arguments sound like people who don't want to stop using. They come up with all kinds of excuses why they use drugs and never take personal responsiblity. I know because I was one of them. I used to think abortion was okay too, until Christ came into my life.

Congratulations! I hope that goes well for you.

If any one of you thinks for one second that Jesus himself would advocate abortion, then you've been misled.

People, wake up. This is spiritual warfare. The devil himself infected your thinking with arguments that you think sound logical but in reality are obviously evil to anyone with a conscience.

Like I said, I'm done here. I'm tired of all the excuses and the lies.

If you are bothered this much by discussing the issue then I would agree this is likely not the best place for you. Best of luck in your endeavors.

 

[Belk]

I have no response to excuses.

Then it would seem that you are not here to change minds. You are here to lecture.

 

[SallyNow]

What if the Flying Spaghetti Monster got into a fight with the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Who would win?

You can only pick one, FSM or IPU.

No debate, just answer the question.

Invisible Pink Unicorn, of course.

Look, what would happen if it turned out that the fetus going back into the womb is rejected by the mother's body, thereby resulting in a miscarriage? Or the mother's health is too fragile to support a pregnancy? Or there is a serious underlying medical condition that makes pregnancy deadly to the mother, and therefore the fetus, too?

Perhaps this question would make more sense if asked "what would you do if you were to go back into the womb as a viable baby... that is, a fetus more than about 20 24 weeks old". Well, then there are probably very few informed pro-choice people who would agree that an abortion should take place that late in pregnancy.

 

[Lynden1000]

I didn't say it was ok. I said there was a CHOICE involved. The fetus doesn't get that choice. A person sent to death row made the CHOICE to commit a crime. A fetus didn't commit a crime. I wasn't saying Capital Punishment was right or wrong. That's NOT the issue. The issue is not all that complex. Everyone wants to make it out to be but it's not.

In it's simplest form, it's violence against women and children for which there is no excuse. The irony of it all is exemplified by Norma McCorvey who openly admitted that she lied in Roe v. Wade and who is now a pro-life activist. This whole abortion mess began with a LIE. And who is the father of all lies?

Anyway, I have better things to do with my time than to argue with people who call themselves Chritians but advocate the death of innocent children. The blood is on your hands if you do nothing. You'll end up in hell asking yourself, "Gee, how did I get here?" You all ought to be ashamed to call yourselves Christians. I am leaving this forum for good, not that any of you care, my presence here is obviously not welcome as this seems to be a pro-choice forum. You are all sick sick sick. I'm wasting my time here.

In dealing with recovery issues of people addicted to drugs and alcohol, your arguments sound like people who don't want to stop using. They come up with all kinds of excuses why they use drugs and never take personal responsiblity. I know because I was one of them. I used to think abortion was okay too, until Christ came into my life.

If any one of you thinks for one second that Jesus himself would advocate abortion, then you've been misled.

People, wake up. This is spiritual warfare. The devil himself infected your thinking with arguments that you think sound logical but in reality are obviously evil to anyone with a conscience.

Like I said, I'm done here. I'm tired of all the excuses and the lies.

Toodles!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Invisible Pink Unicorn, of course.

Look, what would happen if it turned out that the fetus going back into the womb is rejected by the mother's body, thereby resulting in a miscarriage? Or the mother's health is too fragile to support a pregnancy? Or there is a serious underlying medical condition that makes pregnancy deadly to the mother, and therefore the fetus, too?

Perhaps this question would make more sense if asked "what would you do if you were to go back into the womb as a viable baby... that is, a fetus more than about 20 24 weeks old". Well, then there are probably very few informed pro-choice people who would agree that an abortion should take place that late in pregnancy.

how do you reconcile the scripture that states God knit the baby together in the womb, with the notion that a fetus is not viable up to a certain point? I am not, like a previous poster, questioning faith, just wondering how the two go hand in hand in your thinking...

 

[Uphill Battle]

The fact that she's now anti-abortion doesn't impress me. The woman admitted that she got thousands of death threats a year, had stalkers breaking into her house, and had to have full-time security to protect her from the crazies who tried to kill her for what she did. Live with that for 30+ years, you're likely to change your mind too.

If something is worth standing up for, it doesn't change due to exterior pressure. Or at least it shouldn't.

Excuse me, dear... I'm pro-choice, I'm not Christian, and I've had no abortions. You're pretty sactimonious and high-riding for a woman who was obviously once pro-choice herself, and actually had an abortion. The irony is pretty strong of a person who thinks abortion is so evil that we're going to hell for even advocating it, coming from a person who HAD one who thinks their going to heaven.

That is the purpose of the forgiveness of Christ that she has accepted. That shouldn't be a new premise to anyone on these boards. She's arguing her past experience vs. her present state.

More than 80% of conceptions, little babies as you put it, are naturally aborted before pregnancy and before a woman even knows there's a "little baby" inside of her. Natural miscarriages happen everyday, often to the same woman over and over again. A friend of mine has had 8 miscarriages, 24 weeks and under, all natural.

It seems to me that God is pretty OK with the termination of pregnancies.

More than 99.9 percent of conceptions die within a century. all are natural, in that every living thing will die. (by whatever the cause.) using that same argument, if everybody is going to die, then there is no reason that it should be morally abhorrant to kill them. That neighbour that won't cut his lawn before it's a jungle? kill him.... he's going to die anyways.

 

[marblehead]

More than 99.9 percent of conceptions die within a century. all are natural, in that every living thing will die. (by whatever the cause.) using that same argument, if everybody is going to die, then there is no reason that it should be morally abhorrant to kill them. That neighbour that won't cut his lawn before it's a jungle? kill him.... he's going to die anyways.

Bad analogy.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Bad analogy.

tell me why.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Interesting theory, but not exactly true. Especially when we're talking about threats made to personal body and safety. If your life is threatened to the point of needing constant security for 30 years, you'll probably be pressured to a point of changing your mind too. Especially if you have kids.

Pefectly true. If your convictions are worth no more than your safety, then they shouldn't be a conviction in the first place. I don't advocate the pressure she was under, nor doubt the reasoning. Just that if it was a firm solid conviction of truth, then pressure can't change it. We probably will not agree on this, however.

Wonderful. Then I'll be pro-choice until my deathbed, at which point I'll be *REEEEALLY SORRY* accept the forgivness of Christ and still go to heaven. So the whole argument from a Christian standoint is moot to begin with, since I can change my mind and get to heaven anyway.

If you think that's how it works, a Christianity 101 course might be in order.

I don't think 99% of the people who die in a century do so of natural causes.

Secondly, we're talking about abortion, not murder or killing.

You can quibble if Abortion is Murder if you want. Fine. Under current North American laws (for the most part) it is not murder, as it is legal.

You can't get away with stating it isn't killing, however. Regardless at what age the fetus is, it is still a live being. If you terminate it, you kill it. That's pushing the goalposts way past credibility.

You can argue moral viability if you want, but stating you aren't killing when you abort a baby, is fairytale thinking.