What if you were wrong all along?

[MQTA]

So, you're saying if you kill someone, it's best to THEN become one? Or only if you are a fictional character?

 

[raffster]

Hello all and Assalaamu aleykum to brothers and sisters.

What if what you have believed on earth was wrong?? All that worship was for nothing? Basically that you were on the wrong path?

I am sure so many of us are convinced on our beliefs and convictions..but what if we were mistaken? And how do you know the religion (or the lack of) you have is the CORRECT one??

I bet it doesnt worry most of you especially when most of you dont believe in Hell.

I believe in the Middle Way where there is no right or wrong. Am I exempt from answering this question then?

 

[grateful heart]

No.

That's incorrect.

which one doesnt do what I said then? you have said I am wrong then havent proved I am???

 

[tulc]

Which religion, other than Christianity, can rid a person off this guilt?

let's see... off hand, i can think of these:

Buddha Dharma, Jain Dharma, Sanatana Dharma, Confucianism, Taoism, the Pollen Path and the Red Road.

Can you please Elaborate and explain how do the above stated religions Rid you of guilt.

well... that would be a terribly complicated task, explaining the pillars of 7 religions.. how about i pick one of them and go from there?

i'll let you choose, though you should know that of the ones listed, my "strengths" as it were, are Buddhism and Taoism.. so i'd be more easily able to answer and explain their views. for the others, it would be a bit more... academic, as i don't have a lot of working experience with the traditional praxis, especially for the Pollen Path and the Red Road.

how about these three?

Buddha Dharma, Jain Dharma, Sanatana Dharma

that would be cool!
tulc(grabbing coffee, releasing his inner guilt!)

 

[vajradhara]

how about these three? that would be cool!
tulc(grabbing coffee, releasing his inner guilt!)

for you, tulc, i'll do it

i'll compose it today and post it here....

check back later

 

[Blackmarch]

Of course if one was totally wrong....hmmm
Probably shouldn't go there it'd be an ugly picture.

 

[Avtoritet]

Of course if one was totally wrong....hmmm
Probably shouldn't go there it'd be an ugly picture.

Can you please explain or use the quote button

 

[SquareC]

I acknowledge that I may be wrong, and I have found comfort in the fact that I may be right.

I will not change my religion out of fear.

Well said!

Oh, and that guilt thing? No dice. One should take personal responsibility for one's actions. Guilt is the spirit's way of saying "You did something wrong" and anyone that dumps that feeling off onto a Deity is copping out of their personal responsibility for their own actions.

 

[Avtoritet]

for you, tulc, i'll do it

i'll compose it today and post it here....

check back later

Can you do it for me too??? IM Waiting

 

[Achichem]

What if what you have believed on earth was wrong?? All that worship was for nothing? Basically that you were on the wrong path?

Truth as you define it does not exist in my eye, nor in my nose, nor in my touch, nor in the recesses of my understanding. I have in this moment today’s truth, and in tomorrows, tomorrows truth, but do think I do not believe in higher truth. For I do, and I do await the coming of our truth. However, today is not that day. I know because I am not ready!

I am sure so many of us are convinced on our beliefs and convictions..but what if we were mistaken? And how do you know the religion (or the lack of) you have is the CORRECT one??

Simply I do not, however, I trust and that is enough!

I bet it doesnt worry most of you especially when most of you dont believe in Hell.

I do believe in hell and I know I will probably enter; but least I worry!

For:
“Fear not hell but heaven, for heaven you become the lowliest, yet in hell you are the highest.”
(please don’t take literally, it a teaching phrase, not a statement)

 

[icbal]

If I were wrong...

Well.. if it were Hinduism, apparently I wouldn't be wrong because regardless of what god you pray to you pray to one of them anyway.
If it were Bhuddism, I think I would be ok, since I'm a pretty decent guy, though like everyone I have my flaws.
If it were Christianity, I'd be ok, because I follow the Christ.
If it were Judaism I'd be OK because I follow Moses and the other Prophets.
If it were Islam I'd be ok because I follow Muhammad.
If it were none at all...


Well I'd be dead and it wouldn't matter.

It says in the Qur'an it is not for us to convert one another.
If God had meant for us all to be the same he would simply will it to be and it would be.

People were meant to have different religions.

However, God also says that one who does not know, cannot be guilty of sin.
But once the word of God has reached someone, it is then as to whether or not they incurr guilt on themselves.

 

[johan777]

I'd rather live this life as if there is a God, than living without His daily mercy and grace upon my life. However, I know that I know that I know that my God is in control of the universe.


For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other. (Isa. 45:18)

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste icbal,

thank you for the post.

If it were Bhuddism, I think I would be ok, since I'm a pretty decent guy, though like everyone I have my flaws.

the "h" comes after the "dd" in Buddhism

however... you should know that this view that you have put forth is incorrect. it really has no bearing on the issue if you are a decent guy or not. nevertheless, skillful moral and ethical actions do play a large part in our tradition.

 

[vajradhara]

as requested.

i feel that it would be of some benefit to define the term "guilty" so we can all operate with the same understanding of the term.

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/guilty

guilty [gɪlti:]Aadjective1 guilty
responsible for or chargeable with a reprehensible act; or marked by guilt; "guilty of murder"; "the guilty person"; "secret guilty deeds"; "a guilty conscience"; "guilty behavior" 2 guilty, hangdog, shamefaced, shamed
showing a sense of guilt; "a guilty look"; "the hangdog and shamefaced air of the retreating enemy"- Eric Linklater




i propose that we use definition #1 for our discussion.

i would hope that the discerning reader would already clearly see why Buddhism does away with guilt... however, let me explain.

"responsible for or chargeable with a reprehensible act" is indicative of a person, an individual that is what the quotes indicate. often, this feeling is one that is not imposed from outside, rather, one may feel it due to remorse for actions they have undertaken.

in either case, within the Buddha Dharma at least, there is no "you" that does the deed and there is no "you" which can feel guilty. Anatman, as we may say... no permenantly existing, unchanging self or soul... always in motion, changing from moment to moment conditioned by the preceeding moment.

feelings of guilt are, like all emotional states, temporary and transient, not lasting. within the various paths of the Buddha Dharma, we are taught not to associate ourselves with temporary mental states, thus we don't self identify through emotive feelings like love, happiness, guilt or sadness. these feelings are, in our view, subject to the right causes and conditions and when those causes and conditions are not present, those feelings do not arise.

thus, the proper cognition of the teachings of Impermenance allieve ones mental continumm of the experience of guilty feelings, if they do arises.. however, the proper cognition of the teaching usually prevents such things from arising in one's mental continumm to begin with.

(i've got to be rather general with alot of stuff... my apologies to the more academically inclined readers.)

so.. in answer to the question "Which religion, other than Christianity, can rid a person off this guilt? "

if one has the proper understanding of the teachings, there is no guilt to be rid of since there is no person that bears it.

 

[MQTA]

Guilt is a feeling based upon a Past Event. Past Events can't be changed, whether the event happened 10 minutes ago (or 10 seconds ago) or 10 years ago, or 10,000 years ago. Once it's in 'history', the Best you can do from it is learn from the event, take steps to make amends for the event, and/or vow (to yourself, which is really all that counts) not to do it again if it was with less than desirable outcomes.

Guilt is an "erroneous zone" that Dr. Wayne Dyer wrote about in his first book in 1976. I guess he got his ideas from Buddhism?

 

[MQTA]

So here's a summary of Dr. Wayne Dyer's chapter on getting rid of guilt without anyone else's help or approval.

Someone wrote this up a number of years back and I saved it.

--------------

Re: YEZ - Chapter 5

“If you believe that feeling bad or worrying long enough will change a past or future event, then you are residing on another planet with a different reality system.”


“Throughout life, the two must futile emotions are guilt for what has been done and worry about what might be done. There they are! The great wastes – Worry and Guilt – Guilt and Worry. As you examine these two erroneous zones, you will begin to see how connected they are; in fact they can be viewed as opposite ends of the same zone.”


“X__________________ Present __________________X

Guilt ....... (PAST) ........................ (FUTURE) ...... Worry


“Guilt means that you use up your present moments being immobilized as a result of past behavior, while worry is the contrivance that keeps you immobilized in the now about something in the future – frequently something over which you have no control. You can see this clearly if you try to think of yourself as feeling guilty about an event that has yet to occur, or to worry about something that has happened. Although one response is to the future and the other to the past, they both serve the identical purpose of keeping you upset or immobile in your present moment.”


“Guilt and worry are perhaps the most common forms of distress in our culture. With guilt you focus on a past event, feel dejected or angry about something that you did or said, and use up your present moments being occupied with feelings over the past behavior. With worry, you use up those valuable nows, obsessing about a future event. Whether you are looking backward or forward, the result is the same. You’re throwing away the present moment.”


“Guilt is the most useless of all erroneous zone behaviors. It is by far the greatest waste of emotional energy. Why? Because, by definition, you are feeling immobilized in the present over something that has already taken place, and no amount of guilt can ever change history.”


“Guilt is not merely a concern with the past; it is a present-moment immobilization about a past event. And the degree of immobilization can run from mild upset to severe depression…Learning from your mistakes is healthy and a necessary part of growth. Guilt is unhealthy because you are ineffectively using up your energy in the present feeling hurt, upset and depressed about a historical happening. And it’s futile as well as unhealthy. No amount of guilt can ever undo anything.”


“There are two basic ways in which guilt becomes a part of the emotional makeup of an individual. In the first, guilt is learned at a very early age and remains with a grown-up as a leftover childish response. In the second case, guilt is self-imposed by an adult for an infraction of a code to which he professes to subscribe.”


“You can learn to savor pleasure without a sense of guilt. You can learn to see yourself as someone who is capable of doing anything that fits into your own value system and does not harm others – and doing it without guilt. If you do something, whatever it may be, and you don’t like it or yourself after having done it, you can vow to eliminate such behavior for yourself in the future.”


“Here are the most basic reasons for choosing to waste your present feeling guilty about things that you’ve done or failed to do in the past.




· By absorbing your present moments feeling guilt about something that has already taken place, you don’t have to use that now moment in any kind of effective, self-enhancing way…guilt is an avoidance technique for working on yourself in the present. Thus you shift responsibility for what you are or are not now to what you were or were not in the past.

· By shifting responsibility backward you not only avoid the hard work of changing yourself now but the attendant risks that go with change as well. It is easier to immobilize yourself with guilt about the past than to take the hazardous path of growing in the present.

· There is a tendency to believe that if you feel guilty enough, you will eventually be exonerated for having been naughty.

· Guilt can be a means of returning to the safety of childhood, a secure period when others made decisions for you and took care of you.

· Guilt is a useful method for transferring responsibility for your behavior from yourself to others.

· Often you can win the approval of others even when those others don’t approve of your behavior by feeling guilt for that behavior.

· Guilt is a superb way to win pity from others.


“Some strategies for eliminating guilt –


Begin to view the past as something that can never be changed, despite how you feel about it. It’s over! And any guilt that you choose will not make the past different.

Ask your what you are avoiding in the present with guilt about the past.

Begin to accept certain things about yourself that you’ve chosen but others may dislike.

Keep a Guilt Journal and write down any guilty moments, noting precisely when, why, and with whom it occurs, and what you are avoiding in the present with this agonizing over the past.

Reconsider your value system. Which values do you believe in and which to do you only pretend to accept?

Make a list of all the bad things you’ve ever done. Give yourself guilt points for each of them on a scale of one to ten. Add up your score and see if it make any difference in the present whether it’s one hundred or one million. The present moment is still the same and all of your guilt is merely wasteful activity.

Assess the real consequences of your behavior. Rather than looking for a mystical feeling to determine yes’s and no’s in your life, determine whether the results of your actions are pleasing and productive for you.

Teach those in your life who attempt to manipulate you with guilt that you are perfectly capable of handling their disappointment in you.



“There is nothing to worry about! Absolutely nothing. You can spend the rest of your life, beginning right now, worrying about the future, and no amount of your worry will change a thing. Remember that worry is defined as being immobilized in the present as a result of things that are going or not going to happen in the future. You must be careful not to confuse worry with planning for the future. If you are planning, and the present-moment activity will contribute to a more effective future, then this is not worry. It is worry only when you in any way immobilized now about a future happening.”


“Just as our society fosters guilt, so it encourages worry.”


“Worry is endemic to our culture. Almost everyone spends an inordinate amount of present moments worrying about the future. And all of that is for naught. Not one moment of worry will make things any better. In fact, worry will very likely help you to be less effective in dealing with the present.”


“Much of your worry concerns things over which you have no control. You can worry all you want about war, or the economy, or possible illness, but worry won’t bring peace or prosperity or health.”


“The Psychological Payoffs for Choosing Worry”


Worry is a present-moment activity. Thus, but using your current life being immobilized over a future time in your life, you are able to escape the now and whatever it is in the now that threatens you.

Worry is a handy justification for certain self-defeating behavior. If you’re overweight, you undoubtedly eat more when you worry, hence you have a sensational reason for hanging on to the worry behavior.

Your worry keeps you from living. A worrier sits around and thinks about things, while a doer must be up and about. Worry is a clever device to keep you inactive, and clearly it is easier, if less rewarding, to worry, than to be an active, involved person.

Worry can bring ulcers, hypertension, cramps, tension headaches, backaches and the like.

“Some strategies for Eliminating Worry”


Begin to view your present moments as times to live, rather than to obsess about the future. When you catch yourself worrying, ask yourself, “What am I avoiding now by using up this moment with worry?”

Recognize the preposterousness of worry. Ask yourself over and over, “Is there anything that will ever change as a result of my worrying about it?

Give yourself shorter and shorter periods of “worry-time.”
Make a worry list of everything you worried about yesterday, last week and even last year. See if any of your worry did anything productive for you.

Just Worry! See if it is something that you can demonstrate when you are tempted to worry. That is, stop and turn to someone and say, “Watch me – I’m about to worry.”

Ask yourself this worry-eradicating question, “What’s the worst thing that could happen to me (or them) and what is the likelihood of it occurring?” You’ll discover the absurdity of worry in this way.

Deliberately choose to act in some manner that is in direct conflict with your usual areas of worry.

Begin to face the fears you possess with productive thought and behavior.

“The present moment is the key to understanding your guilt and worry activities. Learn to live now and now waste your current moments in immobilizing thoughts about the past or future. There is no other moment to live by now, and all of your futile guilt and worry are done in the elusive now.”


---------------

FWIW

 

[Avtoritet]

So you blame the society for all of the worries, or what??? Denial??? Excuses???

 

[tulc]

Thank you so much vajradhara! There is a lot to think about in your post, (and since my goal is to understand I'm having to beat my "kneejerkevangelicalreaction" into a whimpering silence so I can try and "see" from another perspective!) Let me get back to you and see if I got it or not!
tulc(who thinks this would be easier with lots and lots of coffee!)

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Tulc,

thank you for the post and the kind words.

Thank you so much vajradhara! There is a lot to think about in your post, (and since my goal is to understand I'm having to beat my "kneejerkevangelicalreaction" into a whimpering silence so I can try and "see" from another perspective!) Let me get back to you and see if I got it or not!
tulc(who thinks this would be easier with lots and lots of coffee!)

i agree... coffee helps the world go round

not to put too fine a point on it, however, what you are attempting is very difficult to do and i commend you for your efforts. it is though the deliberate switching of perspectives that, in my view, really allows one to grow in a spiritual manner.

 

[MQTA]

Don't Worry, Be Happy