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What if you seek and don't find?

Oncedeceived

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That still leaves your religion in a lurch, but that is not my point. You said, "There is no evidence, anywhere that informs us that non-living matter could ever become living matter.";

Exactly how were you going to prove that there is no such evidence?

What do you think were in all of those links that I provided, multiple times? Cookie recipes?

Did you make any effort to go through them?
There is no evidence in any of the links that you gave (I'm not going to buy the lecture series) that non-living matter has become living matter. If there was evidence of non-living matter becoming living matter the entire world would be aware of that event. Now if some evidence exists out there that is being kept under wraps for some reason and you are aware of it then by all means give me a link.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Shoot.

Once. You asked about multiverse models but I think by your response you may have misunderstood what I was saying. You had claimed that solutions to the teleological argument involving multiverse scenarios would still require an initial universe to spawn all the other universes. I said I don't think that is the case. I not sure, I haven't been able to find a model that explicitly states that it requires an initial universe to have been created but also I haven't found a model that says it would not require this.maybe I am just looking in the wrong places.
You made the claim that there were models of the multi-verse that didn't need an something to bring about the first universe that all the other universes have come from. The first universe is just as material and physical as any other to be able to give the attributes to the others so it too had to have had a beginning too.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Yes it does! I am a soccer coach for u-8 girls. Love it, especially the way they all follow the ball like an amoeba at the start of the season!
That would be awesome. My little Addy has played two times so far and she kicked the ball all the way down to the goal! I was soooo proud of her. Then she runs off the field to give us all high fives. ^_^ Gonna have to work on that one. :)
 
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Davian

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There is no evidence in any of the links that you gave (I'm not going to buy the lecture series) that non-living matter has become living matter.
Don't move the goalposts; that was not the claim. The claim you made was "could ever", for that that we only need circumstantial evidence and the like. Did you actually watch thorough the videos?
If there was evidence of non-living matter becoming living matter the entire world would be aware of that event. Now if some evidence exists out there that is being kept under wraps for some reason and you are aware of it then by all means give me a link.
But you said, "There is no evidence, anywhere that informs us that non-living matter could ever become living matter". It's your job to get out there and prove your claim right.
 
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Davian

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Yes, Davian I can see that would be a problem for you.
No, it is a problem with your scenario. What you are describing is that one must believe before one can believe. This hardly sounds like a robust means of determining if something is true or not.
 
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Oncedeceived

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No, it is a problem with your scenario. What you are describing is that one must believe before one can believe. This hardly sounds like a robust means of determining if something is true or not.
I didn't know before I asked.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Don't move the goalposts; that was not the claim. The claim you made was "could ever", for that that we only need circumstantial evidence and the like. Did you actually watch thorough the videos?

But you said, "There is no evidence, anywhere that informs us that non-living matter could ever become living matter". It's your job to get out there and prove your claim right.
I'm not limiting evidence to the present. Do you have evidence that shows non-living matter becoming living matter?
 
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HitchSlap

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I didn't have a preconceived conclusion prior to asking. I was open unlike assuming that God was just a fictional character in a book.
How does having a thought in your head equal a God/s talking directly to you?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Don't move the goalposts; that was not the claim. The claim you made was "could ever", for that that we only need circumstantial evidence and the like. Did you actually watch thorough the videos?

But you said, "There is no evidence, anywhere that informs us that non-living matter could ever become living matter". It's your job to get out there and prove your claim right.
No, circumstantial evidence doesn't provide evidence that non-living matter became living matter. It provides evidence that non-living molecules interact with minerals, it is not evidence that this interaction could ever become living matter.
 
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Oncedeceived

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How do you determine which thoughts are from the God/s?
There are important differences in the way I think and the thoughts that are communicated that are attributed to God. The thoughts that are God's generally are instructing me and illuminating things I don't want to hear about myself. With thoughts that do not necessarily have anything to do with me personally are usually confirmed by at least two or three other occurrences that are all "saying" the same thing.
 
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HitchSlap

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There are important differences in the way I think and the thoughts that are communicated that are attributed to God. The thoughts that are God's generally are instructing me and illuminating things I don't want to hear about myself. With thoughts that do not necessarily have anything to do with me personally are usually confirmed by at least two or three other occurrences that are all "saying" the same thing.
How do you know this?
 
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Oncedeceived

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I have. Sincerely, as far as I'm aware. But no answer I'm afraid.
Doesn't mean there won't be.



I can honestly say that I have never once considered the social ramifications of belief and I value truth enough to know that I would not allow this to dissuade me if I really knew God was real. Ignoring the truth would be stupid.
There you go, the same for me. I was searching for truth myself. I really had no preconceived ideas about whether God really existed or not. I had no commitment to any one belief. I wasn't an atheist, or agnostic or a believer. I was just simply curious. Did a God exist? If so what God or all gods might exist. If God didn't exist that would not change my life one iota at the time. Yet, I did wonder how so many Christians were soooo sure that their God existed. I didn't get it. I never got it until God reveled it to me.

I could well be blinded by Satan, but not because (as you suggested) I chose to be.
I have no way of knowing whether or not that is true. I don't think that you believe that you have. Is there something in your life that you know from knowing what God expects or looks badly on that you do regularly in your life? That you know God would think is a sin?



Sorry, I don't see where you've supported this claim you're making. You're arguing that all the stuff about coming with angels and whatnot is indeed referring to Judgement day, but the very next line is talking about a completely different event that will take place in a few days. I see nothing between lines 27 and 28 that supports your interpretation that they refer to completely separate events. I don't see how the point about the different greek words provides such support. How does this difference support the notion that everything up until 27 is about Judgement day and suddenly 28 is about the Transfiguration? Please give me the different Greek words with an explanation of why one word should be considered to refer to the second coming and the other to the transfiguration.
The fact that the very next line goes to this happening is a very good indication that this is the fulfillment of that very thing. Not all the disciples were present which even supports the fact that only a few of them would witness Him coming into His kingdom. Something of this much importance would make it seem logical that all of them would be there to witness it. Not only does it say that this event occurs but that "after these sayings" it occurs. So it links them to the event. More importantly, if they didn't see the kingdom if they believed that this saying of Jesus was about the actual earthly kingdom coming and then they don't see it why would they record it knowing it didn't happen? If you are making up a story, you are going to have to make sure it fits with all your facts. I mean this is a pretty big error on Jesus's part if He really meant the final coming.



So Jesus knew when he was going to be transfigured. This seems to contradict your your interpretation. If he knew that the transfiguration was going to take place in six days, why phrase it in such a way that it seems like something a long way off? If I said to you "There are some reading this post who will not die before they witness my greatest achievement," would you assume I was talking about something that I know is going to happen six days from now? Not a rhetorical question, so I look forward to your answer.
You do realize that Jesus did this all the time. His references to His death were vague at times. The fact that Luke links the two events together by writing, "after these sayings".




So the second coming will happen before everyone alive on May 14, 1948 dies?

Also, you haven't supported this interpretation. Do you have any scriptural evidence that when Jesus says "this generation will not pass away," he is really referring to a generation a couple thousand years in the future? Again, don't you think that would be misleading for the people whom he is addressing?
You are ignoring other comments made by Jesus. He has said to His disciples that the second coming will be only when God says it will and God the father is the only one that knows when it will happen. So if He didn't know when it would happen how would He know if any of the disciples would even still be alive?

Yes, I do believe that the second coming will happen before everyone alive to see Israel become a nation dies.



That's not relevant to the point being made. You have agreed that Pharaoh could not have softened his heart in the moment God wanted it hardened, so his free will in that moment was subverted. I'm suggesting a similarly temporary subversion of free will in order to save an otherwise unsaveable soul. You didn't actually offer any counterargument to this proposal so I assume that you have none. I will however paste it below for your convenience in case you want to take another look at it:

I'm saying he could temporarily override our free will to force us for an instant to know he exists, feel his transformative love and his glory. Thereafter the person could write it off as a hallucination or decide not to turn to God because he asks too much of them etc. They still get to choose whether or not to devote their lives to God, except now there's actually a possibility that they will chose God.
So are you asking why God can't save everyone by altering their will for even a moment? I don't know. Perhaps He can and doesn't. I don't have enough information to determine whether that is possible in regard to His overall plan. It seems He has done it in the past and so we know He has the ability but why He doesn't for everyone can't be known.


So you would perhaps choose not to save your child because you expect to see them in the afterlife? That strikes me as an incredibly alarming attitude, but that's your prerogative. What if you knew that for some reason this incorrect belief your child held so sincerely would result in true death, no second chances in the afterlife?
I really don't know. I don't like to determine life and death scenarios, I don't have that right.




I was not a fan of Stephen Harper, our last Prime Minister, but I would still recognize his power and authority. Similarly I would be forced to acknowledge God's existence and authority. As I said, I'm interested in truth,
. Fair enough.


So the lack of evidence for faeries cannot seriously be considered to support an inference that faeries existed but were wiped out, correct?
This is a category error. Do you equate something we know exists such as evil people and faeries?




I agree that evil has many levels. I disagree with the claim that a uniformly and unavoidably evil population existed because there is no evidence of such a population anywhere. As Athée has pointed out, this sounds a lot like history being written by the victors who are trying to make their genocidal actions seem righteous.
I find a group of people that sacrifice their babies by fire to a god to be an evil population. I think that they did uniformly do evil as a population and as such would be considered evil in my estimation. Maybe not each and everyone of the children would turn out to be mass killers if they were to even continue the practices of their group, that would continue an evil population.


Exactly, yes. You believe that your god has a good reason for apparent atrocities even if you can't think of one that comports with external evidence. That's in contrast to science wherein conclusions must comport with evidence external to your own beliefs on the subject.
I went back to see what this is in reference to and I can't find it. How were we comparing science and good reasons for jew behavior?




Scripture stating that "there is none righteous" simply gives us the current state of humanity; it doesn't address the ability of God to create us in a certain way. This does not support the assertion that a created being can't be sinless. Wasn't Jesus fully man and fully God? Wasn't he therefore a fully created being who was also sinless? Or was the fully god part sinless while the fully man part was sinful?
Who knows? I sure don't.

And I think your support for omniscience being necessary for sinlessness doesn't fit with your statement that God's sinlessness an attribute of his nature, not something that comes from his nature. If omniscience is a prerequisite for sinlessness, that means sinlessness is something God does by exerting his omniscience to avoid ever doing anything that would affect others in such a way that his actions could be sinful. Sinlessness is thus something that God does rather than something he is. If you disagree, please explain in detail why.
Lets put it simply...we can not have God's nature because we are not God. Can't be God and only God is sinless.



Edited because I missed this:

So it served God's purpose to create an entire planet of souls that he knew beforehand would always choose evil and then kill them all and damn their souls. How does that fit with any reasonable conception of love?
Do you think that punishing a child for wrong doing and loving them is contradictory? Do you think that God should have just created those that would accept His gift of salvation?



Neat. I've never met a Christian who didn't profess to know that God is omniscient.
That is not what I said and you know it.





You're arguing that their free will is not violated because they are too young to be either for or against God, correct? This doesn't really answer the question though. If free will in this context is making a choice for or against God, why does it not violate free will to take that choice away?

If I were deciding who to vote in an election and I hadn't yet made a choice it would be a violation of my right to choose if one of the candidates were to cast my vote for me.
What is your point? That God shouldn't violate free will under any circumstance including allowing children in heaven when they haven't chosen to be there; so it would be best if they were allowed to go to hell? Or are you upset that you haven't been given the same opportunity to not have a choice? Emotionally, it seems right. But do you think that Stalin or Hitler should have that same opportunity to not have a choice? What of all the millions that were killed and suffered horrible deaths crying out for some sort of justice for their lives being cut short? Does God just say that He's sorry they were done wrong but there is nothing He can do about it?





So yes, Jesus does say that we should love our children to the same degree (although in a different way) that we love him. Correct?
Yes.





Parsimony is about making the fewest unsupported assumptions possible. The conclusion that angiosperms evolved in the Mesozoic is based on the fact that their fossil record begins there and there is no evidence of them prior to that and also their molecular clocks give a similar age.
That is false. I have included the information below.

Your conclusion is based on the existence of plants in the Precambrian and you have added the following assumptions:
1. that the entire suite of angiosperm traits evolved hundreds of millions of years before there is any fossil evidence for them
2. They went extinct
3. They re-evolved that entire suite of angiosperm traits
1. We have evidence that the plants on land before the Cambrian would have very complex metabolic capabilities. There is no fossil evidence as of yet but scientists think this could be because they are soft and would not preserve well.
2. You have said yourself that there have been great mass extinctions all throughout early history, this is a very safe assumption to make based on other events of the same.
3. We know that the modern plants tested show according to their molecular clock that they go back 700 million years so it is conceivable that they could have evolved similar structures or even dissimilar ones that still classified them as angiosperms as we know them.


You see the difference? That's why your position is less parsimonious.
Actually no, I think that when you look at the new evidence that we have it is very parsimonious with that evidence to conclude that plant life, life that molecularly are akin to modern plants.

My conclusion works from the facts of the fossil record, yours requires several assumptions based on a void in the fossil record.
Actually, first of all, it is very common for new fossil evidence to arise that moves first appearances millions and millions of years earlier. So the fossil record is not absolute. Secondly, you are claiming that there is no evidence that supports the belief that plants/angiosperms might have been present before the Cambrian explosion. That is simply not true. It was once believed that the early earth was a barren and had no plant life, but now scientists know that is not the case. They have found evidence that shows that oxygen was in the atmosphere in levels that are too high for just regular chemical reactions and that it must have been biological. They also claim: "The fact oxygen is there requires oxygenic photosynthesis, a very complex metabolic pathway, very early in Earth's history," said researcher Sean Crowe, a biogeochemist at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. "That tells us it doesn't take long for biology to evolve very complex metabolic capabilities."

Future research can look for similarly aged rocks from other places, both on and outside Earth, to confirm these findings. "Research could also look at earlier rocks," Crowe said. "Chances are, if there was oxygen 3 billion years ago, there was likely oxygen production some time before as well. How far back does it go?"

http://www.livescience.com/39938-earth-had-oxygen-earlier.html

We also know that other evidence, molecular clocks using modern plants show that they go back 700 million years.

Plants colonised land hundreds of millions of years earlier than the fossil record suggests, according to scientists in North America.

Genetic evidence gleaned from living species puts the date when land plants first evolved at about 700 million years ago.

If their data are correct, green plants would have been growing on land well before the sudden appearance of many new species of animals that occurred about 530 million years ago, an event called the Cambrian Explosion.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/1482382.stm

If you use this reasoning then there are any number of reasons why you don't see any evidence of my Paleozoic horses. They could have lived in forests where fossilization is rare. They could have been endemic to a single, limited area which did not make it into the fossil record. Perhaps their bones decayed more quickly than normal and were never preserved. These things are all possible, but they are less parsimonious than concluding that horses didn't evolve until the Cenozoic.
I just provided evidence to support my position that is based on several different criteria. What are you basing your on? Rare fossilization. Yes, that happens and supports my position. Limited area? Why and isn't there any other evidence to support it? You are explaining why there isn't evidence, where I am giving evidence to support my position. Do you see the difference now?

Also, you are profoundly mistaken in saying that there were no events in the Cambrian and onward that could have "wiped out whatever life was present". There have been five major mass extinctions since then, including the one at the end of the Permian which killed of 70% of terrestrial vertebrates (and 96% of marine organisms!). Any one of these extinction events could have killed off my horses.
Which supports my position and mine includes actual evidence rather than a lack of evidence.


But you haven't supported your answer. You say that Genesis is just giving an overview of the order but you haven't given any reasoning to support this. You have explained what you think Genesis is saying, but you have not supplied even a single piece of scripture that supports your interpretation. You have not explained how any reasonable reading of the words "every living thing" in the water can be taken to exclude things that live in the water.
Yes I have. At the time this passage is addressing there were no dino's or whales or even octopuses.

The closest you have come is to say that "every living thing" in the water really means every living thing in the water during the Cambrian, an interpretation which is entirely unsupported in the scripture.
How can you say it isn't supported by scripture? It is Scripture we are discussing.

Please explain why "every living thing" in the water only applies to the Cambrian fauna. Don't simply assert that it does, give me something from the scripture that suggests "every" doesn't mean "every".
What basis are you refusing to consider my timeline? The passages fit with scientific evidence and are in chronological order in the same way our evidence records.[/Quote][/Quote]
 
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HitchSlap

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How do you know when someone else is talking to you, when they are not facing you?
I hear their voice, then turn around to speak them.

I'm asking how you determine whether a God/s is speaking to you when you can't see or hear them? How do you distinguish that from your own thoughts?
 
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Oncedeceived

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I hear their voice, then turn around to speak them.
They speak in a different way than you do right. We don't hear people on this forum but we can recognize when someone comes back by another name by the way they word their posts. This is the same context. When I read your posts, I don't hear the words but when I read them I read them with my brain and your thoughts sound like my thoughts inside my head but I know they are yours and can tell the difference not only because I know you are not me but that what you say is not what I would say.

I'm asking how you determine whether a God/s is speaking to you when you can't see or hear them? How do you distinguish that from your own thoughts?
See above.
 
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