What if you "know" that god does not exist

[crossnote]

I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs.

If there was no God, there would be no order or intelligence in the universe and therefore no science for you to study...only randomness and chaos.

 

[xianghua]

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god. I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs. I do not, and never had, any inclination or reason to accept or believe that there is any supernatural aspect to human life. This expert from a recent essay by Andrew M. Haines in Ethika Politika, “The unmistakable finality we experience with new insights — and what we know we lack without them — points to something real beyond our minds.” describes something that I have never known, but that I have encountered in others in many different ways of expressions of faith and belief. It is either like the magician who performs a seemingly impossible magic trick, but there is the sure knowledge that it is a trick; or the scientist who understands and can manipulate extremely complex equations and you know that it is real and very rational, but it is beyond your capability to understand the train of thought and analysis that provides the very real conclusion. So I do not understand how one can accept that a contemporary supernatural world actually exists. Those that do believe must have a mental capacity for discerning that a supernatural deity exists that I, and many others, do not possess; or they create such belief within themselves through a stimulus of cultural beliefs and a desire to believe in something beyond themselves. Both of these possibilities cannot be correct. There is something supernatural that I cannot discern, or religion is just a cultural construct. And someone in my position has no way of discerning which one is correct, thus seeing no alternative to reality, and just a hodgepodge of religious theory within and between religions, I still agree with the conclusion of a 16 year old by back in 1953.

first: we now know that nature need a designer. for instance there is a spinning motor called flagellum.we know that a spinning motor is evidence for design and cant evolve naturally. even if its made from organic components and have a self replication system

 

[HeLeadethMe]

CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE SHALL SERVE
I know this world is getting far more anti GOD and anti biblical truth.
Yet I tell all, I CHOOSE the LORD . count the cost amen.
and if loving the bible, if loving the words of truth , if loving the gosple
is seen as mental illness , and the world thinks we crazy and need to be rounded up .
I SEE IT AS AMEN I am IN GOOD COMPANY
did the world not think JESUS was mad and had a devil
did it not think him beside himself.
The servant is not greater than his LORD
if they have called me , the master of the house beelzabub
how much worse you.
SO , amen. IF I am called nuts , crazy , and hated for my love of the gospel of truth.
love of that beautiful bible.......I AM IN GOOD COMPANY.
I fear not man. ONLY GOD ALONE.

Bless you frienden, amen......it does seem crazy to the wisdom of man. But the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. And Paul said if he be beside himself, it is to the Lord. The ways of the Spirit are not the ways of the flesh.......and God calls His own a peculiar people. My, but how I love His ways, make me more like you Jesus. Just think one day when our spirits leave this tabernacle of flesh we will get to live in that forever.....how I am looking forward to it!

Before I knew the Lord, I sometimes would look up at the achingly beautiful stars of the night sky and my heart would swell and fill with something, but I knew not what.........until one day after being born again, I happened to see the stars again, and suddenly knew what it was.......love and gratitude to the one who made it and sustains it all. What it is thing called beauty anyway........well, it just goes to show that there are things science cannot explain, science can only explain the physical world, but it cannot explain the realm of soul and spirit......to see that realm we need the Holy SPIRIT through faith in the Son of God. Only believe......and He will come.

 

[frienden thalord]

Bless you frienden, amen......it does seem crazy to the wisdom of man. But the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. And Paul said if he be beside himself, it is to the Lord. The ways of the Spirit are not the ways of the flesh.......and God calls His own a peculiar people. My, but how I love His ways, make me more like you Jesus. Just think one day when our spirits leave this tabernacle of flesh we will get to live in that forever.....how I am looking forward to it!

Before I knew the Lord, I sometimes would look up at the achingly beautiful stars of the night sky and my heart would swell and fill with something, but I knew not what.........until one day after being born again, I happened to see the stars again, and suddenly knew what it was.......love and gratitude to the one who made it and sustains it all. What it is thing called beauty anyway........well, it just goes to show that there are things science cannot explain, science can only explain the physical world, but it cannot explain the realm of soul and spirit......to see that realm we need the Holy SPIRIT through faith in the Son of God. Only believe......and He will come.

Science can only know the idea of patterns. NOT GOD.
The carnal mind of man , cannot receive it. to man its one big jig saw puzzle he puffs himself up with
and pats himself on the back when the Thinks he has it figured out.
Science will leave one with more questions at every answer that is revelaed.
BUT GOD giveth the answers to the real question...........WHY WAS LIFE created.
man thinks life evolved and pats himself on the back for seeming wise and wins big awards
and just loves the praise of men for his wise carnal mind.
At most science can only point to the evidence of creation itself.
perhaps even some pondering some kind of Force created it.
watch out for the god of forces syndrome. its huge all over new age.
and in a secrete place shall he honor the god of FORCES, a god who his fathers knew not.
watch out for evolution . for it says we came from nothing, then somehow life evolved
into an ameba which kept evolving
what next...................I guess man evolves to god.................don't laugh
this will and is happening. we are gods syndrome.
thank you for your words of beauty sister. Man is without fault.
the very stars show of his existence.
Imagine perfect rotation, perfect speed, aligment
that don't sound RANDOM at all....................that is the WORK of a BEING
which holds all POWER in the palm of his hand.

 

[frienden thalord]

The time before Time. science cant answer . it cant do it
it will try and men will love the sound of their own minds creation of creation.
Believe me, I know, even as a kindergartner I thought I had some things figured out
but always it left me with more questions than answers.
I remember sitting in class, pondering space. How does space exist
I pondered that space must just continue random
but then I pondered what is outside of space, then what is outside of that.
every answer I got, like perhaps even space just repeats , kept leaving me with more answers
then I pondered God, how can he have just always been.
It was not till many years later I got the answers to those questions that I had long ago
thought of in kindergarten class. But man I was humbled first.
FOR GOD resists the proud. Man I thought I had a mind , and so did some in the world.
but it was mans foolish wisdom. leading me further and further from the truth.
YET one day GODS grace appeared. amen.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

The time before Time. science cant answer . it cant do it
it will try and men will love the sound of their own minds creation of creation.
Believe me, I know, even as a kindergartner I thought I had some things figured out
but always it left me with more questions than answers.
I remember sitting in class, pondering space. How does space exist
I pondered that space must just continue random
but then I pondered what is outside of space, then what is outside of that.
every answer I got, like perhaps even space just repeats , kept leaving me with more answers
then I pondered God, how can he have just always been.
It was not till many years later I got the answers to those questions that I had long ago
thought of in kindergarten class. But man I was humbled first.
FOR GOD resists the proud. Man I thought I had a mind , and so did some in the world.
but it was mans foolish wisdom. leading me further and further from the truth.
YET one day GODS grace appeared. amen.

\o/ Praise the Lord and bless you frienden! So blessed by your comments. Yes a god of forces fits the last days new age all faiths religion.......an abstract god without a personality, just a force......sometimes they call it "the universe".

The time before time.......AMEN, awesome truth, nail on the head.....makes me want to dance! It makes the creation account make sense.

Yes He often does have to humble us.........and then He can give grace to the humble. But as long as we are proud He is against us, so to speak, for our good, until that humbles us so that He can then give us grace. Wonderful, wise and good God! Bless you brother, so glad you became a fool in order to become wise, because wise you are, in Him.

 

[Silmarien]

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god. I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs. I do not, and never had, any inclination or reason to accept or believe that there is any supernatural aspect to human life. This expert from a recent essay by Andrew M. Haines in Ethika Politika, “The unmistakable finality we experience with new insights — and what we know we lack without them — points to something real beyond our minds.” describes something that I have never known, but that I have encountered in others in many different ways of expressions of faith and belief. It is either like the magician who performs a seemingly impossible magic trick, but there is the sure knowledge that it is a trick; or the scientist who understands and can manipulate extremely complex equations and you know that it is real and very rational, but it is beyond your capability to understand the train of thought and analysis that provides the very real conclusion. So I do not understand how one can accept that a contemporary supernatural world actually exists. Those that do believe must have a mental capacity for discerning that a supernatural deity exists that I, and many others, do not possess; or they create such belief within themselves through a stimulus of cultural beliefs and a desire to believe in something beyond themselves. Both of these possibilities cannot be correct. There is something supernatural that I cannot discern, or religion is just a cultural construct. And someone in my position has no way of discerning which one is correct, thus seeing no alternative to reality, and just a hodgepodge of religious theory within and between religions, I still agree with the conclusion of a 16 year old by back in 1953.

I'm actually in a similar position. Until about six months ago, I was pretty convinced that all religions were ultimately manmade. I've always been much more interested in mysticism than doctrine, but even there, is spirituality a matter of human evolution or a sign pointing to a God who really does want us to seek him? I don't think we can step outside of the human condition in the way that would be necessary to answer that question, so for me it really does come down to picking a side and jumping.

Now, I am not really sure what you mean by a contemporary supernatural world. I don't believe that anyone views the world objectively--a naturalistic worldview is as much as assumption as a religious one, and the idea that reality actually is precisely as we perceive it to be is absurd to me. (I am a bit Kantian.) Rejection of naturalism as an objectively, demonstrably true way of looking at the world really does shake things up in interesting ways.

Faith is not something you can understand without living it. It's a path to be walked, not an oddity to be studied. And it is not always easy, especially if you're something of a 50/50 agnostic with a ton of misgivings, but definitely the sort of thing you understand more once you start putting it to the test. And faith and belief are totally different things--there's a world of difference between practicing and non-practicing theism.

 

[cuja1]

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god. I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs. I do not, and never had, any inclination or reason to accept or believe that there is any supernatural aspect to human life. This expert from a recent essay by Andrew M. Haines in Ethika Politika, “The unmistakable finality we experience with new insights — and what we know we lack without them — points to something real beyond our minds.” describes something that I have never known, but that I have encountered in others in many different ways of expressions of faith and belief. It is either like the magician who performs a seemingly impossible magic trick, but there is the sure knowledge that it is a trick; or the scientist who understands and can manipulate extremely complex equations and you know that it is real and very rational, but it is beyond your capability to understand the train of thought and analysis that provides the very real conclusion. So I do not understand how one can accept that a contemporary supernatural world actually exists. Those that do believe must have a mental capacity for discerning that a supernatural deity exists that I, and many others, do not possess; or they create such belief within themselves through a stimulus of cultural beliefs and a desire to believe in something beyond themselves. Both of these possibilities cannot be correct. There is something supernatural that I cannot discern, or religion is just a cultural construct. And someone in my position has no way of discerning which one is correct, thus seeing no alternative to reality, and just a hodgepodge of religious theory within and between religions, I still agree with the conclusion of a 16 year old by back in 1953.

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god. I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs. I do not, and never had, any inclination or reason to accept or believe that there is any supernatural aspect to human life. This expert from a recent essay by Andrew M. Haines in Ethika Politika, “The unmistakable finality we experience with new insights — and what we know we lack without them — points to something real beyond our minds.” describes something that I have never known, but that I have encountered in others in many different ways of expressions of faith and belief. It is either like the magician who performs a seemingly impossible magic trick, but there is the sure knowledge that it is a trick; or the scientist who understands and can manipulate extremely complex equations and you know that it is real and very rational, but it is beyond your capability to understand the train of thought and analysis that provides the very real conclusion. So I do not understand how one can accept that a contemporary supernatural world actually exists. Those that do believe must have a mental capacity for discerning that a supernatural deity exists that I, and many others, do not possess; or they create such belief within themselves through a stimulus of cultural beliefs and a desire to believe in something beyond themselves. Both of these possibilities cannot be correct. There is something supernatural that I cannot discern, or religion is just a cultural construct. And someone in my position has no way of discerning which one is correct, thus seeing no alternative to reality, and just a hodgepodge of religious theory within and between religions, I still agree with the conclusion of a 16 year old by back in 1953.

Praying for God to give you faith.

 

[chriscomplex]

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god. I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs. I do not, and never had, any inclination or reason to accept or believe that there is any supernatural aspect to human life. This expert from a recent essay by Andrew M. Haines in Ethika Politika, “The unmistakable finality we experience with new insights — and what we know we lack without them — points to something real beyond our minds.” describes something that I have never known, but that I have encountered in others in many different ways of expressions of faith and belief. It is either like the magician who performs a seemingly impossible magic trick, but there is the sure knowledge that it is a trick; or the scientist who understands and can manipulate extremely complex equations and you know that it is real and very rational, but it is beyond your capability to understand the train of thought and analysis that provides the very real conclusion. So I do not understand how one can accept that a contemporary supernatural world actually exists. Those that do believe must have a mental capacity for discerning that a supernatural deity exists that I, and many others, do not possess; or they create such belief within themselves through a stimulus of cultural beliefs and a desire to believe in something beyond themselves. Both of these possibilities cannot be correct. There is something supernatural that I cannot discern, or religion is just a cultural construct. And someone in my position has no way of discerning which one is correct, thus seeing no alternative to reality, and just a hodgepodge of religious theory within and between religions, I still agree with the conclusion of a 16 year old by back in 1953.

If energy can not be destroyed just changed into something else, then your bioelectrical circuitry will change after your body has ceased to function.

Your body will turn to dust and then the earth, then that dust will turn back into suns to form new planets. Then evolution will create new physical bodys to house new bioelectrical entities.

It's that simple.

 

[GeorgeJ]

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god.

The fact that religion was invented by humanity does not rule out the existence of a Creator.

 

[Uber Genius]

I don't understand ... Possess he ability to believe everything

Of course you don't. You can't beleive theism or supernatural things exist anymore than you beleive quantum mechanics is real until you study the subject in an intellecually honest way.

Suppose I kept denying experimental double-slit results that show both wave and particle properties of light? What I suggested the lattice math was a forgery by a global group of mathematically obsessed cult members?

There was a time you held the false belief that 2+2=5. Then you went to kindergarten.

Same idea. All knowledge is acquired through examining experiences and concepts and see if they accurately describe the world you live in. At every level of schooling , you replace earlier knowledge with better, more accurate explanations of the world.

You grew in knowledge because you examined previous,presuppositions that didn't seem to hold true given new experiences or new concepts.

You are not even able to delude yourself, without the help of drugs or some physiological condition. So don't try to just beleive.

Do the hard intellectual work and experiential research required to form any new belief.

 

[Uber Genius]

The proof of God is in the heart of an atheist. You see even someone that professes God doesn't exist has a deep yearning to know that which they do not believe in.

I say this because everyone knows the tooth fairy isn't real so we don't have sects of people who go around decrying the tooth fairy. In fact, after a certain age, the tooth fairy is nothing more than an after thought.

Yet God is different. The very term atheist is an afront to the belief. If God doesn't exist why even acknowledge him? Instead most atheists I know would rather like to argue tooth and nail over how science disproves God and how man created God to smooth his understanding.

So the proof of God's existence is in the heart of the atheist (or even unbeliever) for God creates each of us with a yearning to know him. Even those who claim he doesn't exist have that and cannot deny it.

And yet the apostles gave their lives presenting evidence not appealing to people hearts and representing them as lying about their knowledge. While some have claimed that they hate God others give good reasons and have a list of personal experiences suggesting there is no God at least not an all-loving, all-powerful one found in scripture.

 

[1watchman]

The proof of God is in the heart of an atheist. You see even someone that professes God doesn't exist has a deep yearning to know that which they do not believe in.

I say this because everyone knows the tooth fairy isn't real so we don't have sects of people who go around decrying the tooth fairy. In fact, after a certain age, the tooth fairy is nothing more than an after thought.

Yet God is different. The very term atheist is an afront to the belief. If God doesn't exist why even acknowledge him? Instead most atheists I know would rather like to argue tooth and nail over how science disproves God and how man created God to smooth his understanding.

So the proof of God's existence is in the heart of the atheist (or even unbeliever) for God creates each of us with a yearning to know him. Even those who claim he doesn't exist have that and cannot deny it.

Yes, friend, that is good thoughts! I see that when God created man ("in His image") it is with a God-awareness (called conscience). That conscience is what troubles Atheists, for when God "quickens" a soul (awakens; makes alive) that one is either glad to begin learning of His Creator and Savior, or he/she begins to fight against it. If Atheists won't surrender to the Creator they will perish in their sins. We need to value the Word of God, and not fight against Him.

 

[Uber Genius]

Yes, friend, that is good thoughts! I see that when God created man ("in His image") it is with a God-awareness (called conscience). That conscience is what troubles Atheists, for when God "quickens" a soul (awakens; makes alive) that one is either glad to begin learning of His Creator and Savior, or he/she begins to fight against it. If Atheists won't surrender to the Creator they will perish in their sins. We need to value the Word of God, and not fight against Him.

Especially important is to mock and berate those who don't share our Chrisian beliefs. This is the nature of the HS work. Namely to create ad hominem attacks against those that don't share our viewpoint. Bravo, you have captured the escence of Christianity I think, or as much as the Pharisees understood of it anyways.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Especially important is to mock and berate those who don't share our Chrisian beliefs. This is the nature of the HS work. Namely to create ad hominem attacks against those that don't share our viewpoint. Bravo, you have captured the escence of Christianity I think, or as much as the Pharisees understood of it anyways.

They said nothing of the sort. Read with a little discernment, it will do you a lot of good

 

[Uber Genius]

Yes, friend, that is good thoughts! I see that when God created man ("in His image") it is with a God-awareness (called conscience). That conscience is what troubles Atheists, for when God "quickens" a soul (awakens; makes alive) that one is either glad to begin learning of His Creator and Savior, or he/she begins to fight against it. If Atheists won't surrender to the Creator they will perish in their sins. We need to value the Word of God, and not fight against Him.

By all means impugn the morality of those who don't share your presuppositions. Wait...we have the book of Acts 13-19 where we seemPaul starting with the presuupositions of his audience. Not relying on sweeping generalizations about the rebellious nature of his hearers.

How Do You Represent Atheists?

 

[Uber Genius]

They said nothing of the sort. Read with a little discernment, it will do you a lot of good.

Did you read it?

What about the OP?

Now put the OP in a room with the all atheists are in rebellion and deny their conscience guy. How does that conversation go? Salt and light? New conceptual arguments to help bolster faith? A philosophical examination of the presupposition of science that rely on God? I don't think so.

Just an offensive bumper sticker mocking the scientist. A poor ambassador of Christ indeed.

"If atheists won't surrender they will perish in their sins," suggests they they know and are just rebelling, which is not in evidence. It is also assumes what it is trying to prove. Yet we all had a time where we were ignorant. We didn't have facts about the world. Conceptual ones or experiential ones. And now we pretend we knew but we're just rebelling. Not the atheists I have engaged by the thousands over the last 40 years. They have justifications for their beliefs that don't involve rebellion.

I just hope most of these posters never attempt to evangelize atheists. Doubt they would. But it makes my job that much harder. They use the rebellion thesis which misrepresents atheists as morally corrupt and it is an attack against the man rather than an attempt to be salt and light, bringing people as we were brought to the gospel with evidences.

 

[1watchman]

This matter is not about some human morality, Uber. You may choose to allow the rebellion against the call of God, but I can assure you on the full authority of God's Word that such an attitude toward God's grace and patience will prove and justify condemnation. Ignorance is not the issue here, as you imply, but the love of our Creator-God through His "...beloved Son", which when offered by holy Scripture and the moving of the Spirit, is scoffed at and challenged. If one is part of that, they are on shaky ground at best. The mercies of God will allow repentance, but when even that is rejected by the scornful, they will seal their doom (see clearly what God says).

 

[joinfree]

I have “known” since I was 16 that religion was invented by humanity, rather than humanity being an invention of a supernatural god. I have lived a life in science, examining and explaining reality without reliance upon supernatural doctrine and justifications for religious beliefs. I do not, and never had, any inclination or reason to accept or believe that there is any supernatural aspect to human life. This expert from a recent essay by Andrew M. Haines in Ethika Politika, “The unmistakable finality we experience with new insights — and what we know we lack without them — points to something real beyond our minds.” describes something that I have never known, but that I have encountered in others in many different ways of expressions of faith and belief. It is either like the magician who performs a seemingly impossible magic trick, but there is the sure knowledge that it is a trick; or the scientist who understands and can manipulate extremely complex equations and you know that it is real and very rational, but it is beyond your capability to understand the train of thought and analysis that provides the very real conclusion. So I do not understand how one can accept that a contemporary supernatural world actually exists. Those that do believe must have a mental capacity for discerning that a supernatural deity exists that I, and many others, do not possess; or they create such belief within themselves through a stimulus of cultural beliefs and a desire to believe in something beyond themselves. Both of these possibilities cannot be correct. There is something supernatural that I cannot discern, or religion is just a cultural construct. And someone in my position has no way of discerning which one is correct, thus seeing no alternative to reality, and just a hodgepodge of religious theory within and between religions, I still agree with the conclusion of a 16 year old by back in 1953.

Has the Godless physics figured out how the humankind came to be? No.

 

[Uber Genius]

This matter is not about some human morality, Uber. You may choose to allow the rebellion against the call of God, but I can assure you on the full authority of God's Word that such an attitude toward God's grace and patience will prove and justify condemnation. Ignorance is not the issue here, as you imply, but the love of our Creator-God through His "...beloved Son", which when offered by holy Scripture and the moving of the Spirit, is scoffed at and challenged. If one is part of that, they are on shaky ground at best. The mercies of God will allow repentance, but when even that is rejected by the scornful, they will seal their doom (see clearly what God says).

I'm not sure how you get,"Rebellion is not about morality."

You don't seem to have read Acts 13 -19.

You mock and scoff at those who are foreign to Knowledge of God's goodness. But Paul and Peter and Barnabas and in fact all the disciples were surround by people who rejected their view of God and Jesus.

They were generous and argued for truth without mocking. They modeled God's love in their everyday lives and allowed people to freely take the new information they had and new experiences of God's goodness and change over time.

Did Paul get it wrong? Your debate is not against me but him.