What if you can't love your enemies?

[Emmy]

Dear CGL1023.Jesus Himself tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is:
" Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40, we are told: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God is Love, and God made us in His image. If we love others as we love ourselves, it seems important that we treat all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated; how else show our love? You will find that you change your attitude from hate to like or love. Imagine yourself to be in the same situation, what would you do? or expect to have done to you??
God our Heavenly Father Loves us, and Jesus even died for us, that we might live. Love will cover a multitude of sins,
and love will always be the Victor. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told " ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring.
God will not force us, we decide if we follow Jesus back to God, or end up in Outer Darkness without God`s Love.
Love is a Christian`s weapon, with love we can overcome all wrongs and all evils. I say this with love, CGL.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[oi_antz]

honestly, my understanding of the opposite of Love not being hate, changed only about 7 years ago. Most of us are taught from birth that Love and hate are opposites. About 7 years ago, God called me and equipped me to start studying Biblical Love full time. As that study began and I began to understand a little about Love (capital Love always referring to biblical Love) I saw the difference very clearly. To fully explain would require me to actually teach what I have learned about Love, which is not the purpose of this thread, so anything I offer is kind of partial for that reason.

Point being, I totally get where you are coming from, I was there myself not long ago. Hum...how to explain without going into teaching mode....Biblical Love consumes the whole man, iow's without actions, Love isn't, without attitude, Love isn't, without feeling, Love isn't. One way to illustrate this point is to go to I Cor. 13, the great Love chapter. In this passage we see a list of characteristics that are what Love is. All those characteristics have to be present for it to be Love. The worlds view of love is in contrast to this idea, that is why we can be deceived into thinking that Love and hate are opposites, because we have lost sight of what Biblical Love really is. We water it down with the worlds view of love and in that think we understand something that God says to is big to understand in an entire lifetime. By contrast, hate is an emotion period, it can spur a reaction from us, just like we could retaliate due to the emotion of hate, but retaliation isn't hate, it's a judgment. In fact, scripture tells us not to retaliate because God will judge. Likewise, hate as a feeling, as an emotion only can not be an attitude. We can have an attitude of displeasure, anger, hostility, etc, but not an attitude of the emotion of hate, that requires something specific to direct out attention on. So another illustration....in Love, we are to Love everyone, even our enemies, it is an attitude of Love in which no one is exempt: whereas, hate is an emotion directed at a specific person or thing because of something specific. IOW's hate picks and chooses who or what to hate, Love does not pick and choose. Hope that helps, I really am trying hard not to go into teaching mode on this. I totally get this, like I said, before I started studying Biblical Love, I was totally there with you, which hasn't been all that long ago. But Biblical Love does not require emotion in order to act, they function separately from one another and yet mysteriously together. Maybe this example will also help....many people confuse compassion with Love, where Love is compassionate, compassion cannot be Love because compassion can be self motivated rather than humility driven. By contrast, the actions of hate have to be driven by emotion. lol oh, I am well aware of how radical and foreign and how difficult it is to get people to see that Love is not what they think it is or should be. I actually really appreciate your discussion of it and find it an amazing comfort and encouragement. Thanks

I thought it made sense, but then I encountered hate again and I reflect on whether you are right that hate is not emotions, actions and attitude. It certainly does appear to be. Take for instance your example 1 Corinthians 13 and let it describe hate instead of love:

Hate does not suffer long and is not kind; hate does envy; hate parades itself, is puffed up; 5 behaves rudely, seeks its own, is provoked, thinks evil;6 rejoices in iniquity, but does not rejoice in the truth; 7 does not bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, and endure all things.

Certainly I have seen hateful people and I have known hate. This does describe it well. I suggest, if you do think teaching is valuable, and that this is not the right forum for it, you might like to consider writing a blog entry for future reference, then you could direct enquirers to that.

Thank you for your attention the other day, it has been simmering and now circumstances allowed me to question the inverse of 1 Cor 13. I thought it might be valuable to report this to you

 

[razzelflabben]

Dear CGL1023.Jesus Himself tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is:
" Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40, we are told: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God is Love, and God made us in His image. If we love others as we love ourselves, it seems important that we treat all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated; how else show our love?

Emma, there is wisdom in what you say, but you are missing something, to Love others as you Love yourself does not mean to treat them as you want to be treated, but rather to treat them as you treat yourself. To put them in the place you usually put yourself....to provide for them as you provide for yourself, etc.

You will find that you change your attitude from hate to like or love. Imagine yourself to be in the same situation, what would you do? or expect to have done to you??
God our Heavenly Father Loves us, and Jesus even died for us, that we might live. Love will cover a multitude of sins,
and love will always be the Victor. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told " ask and you shall receive," we ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring.
God will not force us, we decide if we follow Jesus back to God, or end up in Outer Darkness without God`s Love.
Love is a Christian`s weapon, with love we can overcome all wrongs and all evils. I say this with love, CGL.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

as I said, mostly right, just missed one little thing

 

[razzelflabben]

I thought it made sense, but then I encountered hate again and I reflect on whether you are right that hate is not emotions, actions and attitude. It certainly does appear to be. Take for instance your example 1 Corinthians 13 and let it describe hate instead of love:

Hate does not suffer long and is not kind;

okay, how many times have you seen people who have held hatred and bitterness for years and years and years...that would be long suffering. In fact, we recently buried my just short of 80 year old father and I have never known a time he wasn't holding onto his hate and anger and bitterness...as to kind, kind here is a usefully kind thing, so it would have to say that hate is not usefully kind. I can go along with that, but that would also mean that someone who hated couldn't do anything usefully kind to the one they hate, like rescue them from drowning, etc. seems to me that there are people who hate and still do usefully kind things, take my father for example, he hated and yet he wanted to make everyone think he was above that, so he did helpful things for the people he hated to show that he was greater than his hate...so far, neither would apply....

hate does envy;

now, remember, that I Cor. 13 Love has to have everyone of these characteristics in order to be Love, wouldn't that also mean that all would have to be present in opposite fashion in order for hate to be the opposite of Love? WEll, once again, I can show my father as an example, his hate came from envy...so maybe, envy spurred his hate, or his hate was spurred by envy, not sure which but the bottom line, they flowed from one another....

hate parades itself, is puffed up;

why do you think abusers try to hide their true natures? Why do any of us try to play the "I'm one way in public and another in private" game? because of being proud and puffed up, in fact, hate comes from pride but pride can exist without hate which is why it is the opposite. In fact, look as you have (I like this method by the way, very thought provoking) with hate and apply pride to the opposites. For example, if I am prideful, will I suffer long at anything that does not benefit me personally? What about kindness, will I help anyone if it doesn't benefit me? etc. As the root of all sin, we can see pride in hate, but hate and pride are not the same thing.

5 behaves rudely,

rudely here means shameful....so is hate shameful, sure, does it have to behave shamefully? No, already gave an example from my own father. Many people hate and still play the game of pretending to be something they are not.

seeks its own, is provoked, thinks evil;

again, I can think of lots of examples where this does not apply to hate, but does apply to pride....

6 rejoices in iniquity, but does not rejoice in the truth; 7 does not bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, and endure all things.

again, lots of examples that apply to pride, not many that apply to hate. Yet everyone of the opposites applies to pride.

Certainly I have seen hateful people and I have known hate. This does describe it well. I suggest, if you do think teaching is valuable, and that this is not the right forum for it, you might like to consider writing a blog entry for future reference, then you could direct enquirers to that.

Have you ever watched someone die from their hatred and bitterness? I have, and not all of these fit.

Thank you for your attention the other day, it has been simmering and now circumstances allowed me to question the inverse of 1 Cor 13. I thought it might be valuable to report this to you

I love this way of examining, I just know from experiencing people who hate, that not all of the opposites apply and in fact, many of them are easily eliminated, whereas with pride, none of the opposites are dismissed, because pride is thinking more about yourself than about anyone else, thus it does keep records of wrongs, it does boast, it does act shamefully, it is not long suffering or kind, etc. Thus, pride is the opposite of Love, I still maintain it...though I love this way of thinking you present and thank you for it, I would suggest you rethink it and this time, compare hate to pride as you look at the opposites of what Love is and also keep in mind that Love requires all the characteristics listed to be in place in order for it to be Love and not just a resounding gong

 

[oi_antz]

I can go along with that, but that would also mean that someone who hated couldn't do anything usefully kind to the one they hate, like rescue them from drowning, etc. seems to me that there are people who hate and still do usefully kind things,

Yes, that is motivated by love though. Point being both love and hate can coexist, but one will always win over the other and eventually one might be eliminated by the other. They are opposites though. You speak as though you have only observed hate in others but not ever experienced it. That would seem unreal, and if so it might indicate that you understand hate to be something different than I do. I am not convinced by your arguments in the rest of that post. It seems like an instant dismissal.

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, that is motivated by love though.

what Love? The worlds idea of love or God's Biblical Love? I would agree, that the opposite of the worlds love, a love that is defined by a strong positive emotion, is hate, another strong emotion. However, from the get go, I have pointed out that I am talking about Biblical Love, which is way more than a strong emotion. Equally, every characteristic of I Cor. 13 has to be present for it to be Love...so, in the case of the person who hates, but saves the hated person from drowning, what other characteristics of I Cor. 13 are present than just being usefully kind at that point?

Point being both love and hate can coexist,

on this we totally agree, but I thought we established that long ago.

but one will always win over the other and eventually one might be eliminated by the other.

not sure what you mean by this....Love can concur all, but hate cannot concur true, Biblical Love any more than hate can concur God because 1. God is Love, and 2. Love that we show isn't Love is it is in our power because we are incapable of that kind of Love on our own.

They are opposites though. You speak as though you have only observed hate in others but not ever experienced it.

hate....not sure I have every experienced it, I have had to forgive things that would make your head swim...things like abuse, molestation, attempted murders, beating up my children for my faith, poverty, etc. etc. etc. (no need to glorify evil just to make a point) but why hate? Why not forgive and Love with the Love of Christ, rather than to allow myself to die in my hate and bitterness that I have witnessed being a horrible death? I have had much to forgive and can tell most people a lot about learning to forgive, cause I have walked that road more than my share of times, but as to hate, I refuse, it is a very horrifying way to die, to allow hate and bitterness to consume you. No thanks.

That would seem unreal, and if so it might indicate that you understand hate to be something different than I do. I am not convinced by your arguments in the rest of that post. It seems like an instant dismissal.

that is your opinion. I know from study and practise that there is a better way than hate and that Love and hate are not opposites. But like I said, just incase you missed it the first couple of times I mentioned it, the worlds idea of love is opposite of hate, but not the Biblical idea of Love, the opposite of that Love is pride.

 

[oi_antz]

what Love? The worlds idea of love or God's Biblical Love? I would agree, that the opposite of the worlds love, a love that is defined by a strong positive emotion, is hate, another strong emotion. However, from the get go, I have pointed out that I am talking about Biblical Love, which is way more than a strong emotion. Equally, every characteristic of I Cor. 13 has to be present for it to be Love...so, in the case of the person who hates, but saves the hated person from drowning, what other characteristics of I Cor. 13 are present than just being usefully kind at that point?

I accept that pride motivates hate, and probably always underlies it. But pride itself is not hate. Hate is therefore a symptom of pride, and it is the opposite of love. Love can conquer hate, but also hate can conquer love if someone desires their own pride more than whatever they enjoy about loving. I do not make a distinction between worldly love and biblical love. Love is love, as defined and demonstrated many ways in the bible. If the world's definition and expression of love is less complete, then it is an incomplete love, and if it is contradictory then it can not be love. We are breaking forum rules. I have obtained from you what I need, so if you must correct observers that is fine, if you think I need correcting then please know that you are welcome to contact me privately. I fear for this thread, I have seen threads get cleaned up for less than this.

FWIW: if pride underlies hate, then what underlies love? I don't know how to answer this yet, I only saw that question upon review.

OP: it is your thread, you should be steering it!

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I accept that pride motivates hate, and probably always underlies it. But pride itself is not hate. Hate is therefore a symptom of pride, and it is the opposite of love. Love can conquer hate, but also hate can conquer love if someone desires their own pride more than whatever they enjoy about loving. I do not make a distinction between worldly love and biblical love. Love is love, as defined and demonstrated many ways in the bible. If the world's definition and expression of love is less complete, then it is an incomplete love, and if it is contradictory then it can not be love. We are breaking forum rules. I have obtained from you what I need, so if you must correct observers that is fine, if you think I need correcting then please know that you are welcome to contact me privately. I fear for this thread, I have seen threads get cleaned up for less than this.

FWIW: if pride underlies hate, then what underlies love? I don't know how to answer this yet, I only saw that question upon review.

OP: it is your thread, you should be steering it!

God underlies love.

 

[razzelflabben]

I accept that pride motivates hate, and probably always underlies it. But pride itself is not hate.

exactly and since pride fits every single one of the opposite characteristics of I Cor. 13 and hate does not, it seems to me to be pretty clear even without the other evidences that pride is the opposite of Love not hate. But that is for you to decide for yourself.

Hate is therefore a symptom of pride,

sure, but not the only symptom and not always a symptom....iow's pride can exist with or without hate, but hate always is associated with pride. That is one way we know that pride is the opposite of Love not hate.

and it is the opposite of love.

as I have shown, that is a false assumption. It would be like me saying the opposite of red on the color wheel is green, therefore since orange mixes red and yellow it is the then orange is opposite red on the color wheel. We know that isn't how opposites work, so why try to force it to work here? What is gained by trying to convince ourselves or others that red and orange are opposites on the color wheel when clearly green is the opposite?

Love can conquer hate, but also hate can conquer love if someone desires their own pride more than whatever they enjoy about loving.

that would be their pride concurring Love not hate. See, even in this sentence you acknowledge that pride is what can destroy Love but refuse to accept it to be so. I have never ever once seen or heard of hate destroying Love but I have seen and witnesses pride destroying Love and Love destroying hate.

I do not make a distinction between worldly love and biblical love. Love is love, as defined and demonstrated many ways in the bible.

that is quite sad for you because Biblical Love is so much more than the world can even fathom much less understand and since it is the kind of Love all men seek, it seems to me worthy of exploring, but it is your call for your own life whether or not you explore the difference.

If the world's definition and expression of love is less complete, then it is an incomplete love, and if it is contradictory then it can not be love. We are breaking forum rules. I have obtained from you what I need, so if you must correct observers that is fine, if you think I need correcting then please know that you are welcome to contact me privately. I fear for this thread, I have seen threads get cleaned up for less than this.

agreed...people no longer know how to discuss things. As for me, I think you still have some things off, but I mention them here, none the less, it is not my place to convince you once you understand what I am saying. The rest is between you and God (I assume you are a believer).

FWIW: if pride underlies hate, then what underlies love? I don't know how to answer this yet, I only saw that question upon review.

Humility. In one of my very earliest posts I pointed out that since humility is the core of Love, then pride is the opposite. Keeping in mind that CS Lewis defines humility as well as anyone I have seen so far. "humility is not thinking less of yourself but rather thinking of yourself less." That is why scripture tells us to love as we love ourselves and some other choice similar scriptures....

OP: it is your thread, you should be steering it!

 

[razzelflabben]

God underlies love.

actually humility underlines Love but that kind of humility comes only from God. IOW's without God giving us that humility and Loving through us, Love is not possible, but the core, or underlying characteristic of Love is humility. Think here of Christ and His humility and how that humility shows us what Love is.

 

[oi_antz]

exactly and since pride fits every single one of the opposite characteristics of I Cor. 13 and hate does not, it seems to me to be pretty clear even without the other evidences that pride is the opposite of Love not hate.

It seems to suggest that you must think that hate and pride are something different than I do. Pride does not fit the inverse of 1 Cor 13, whereas hate does. I will not respond to the rest of your post, since it has now become debate and that is forbidden here.

actually humility underlines Love but that kind of humility comes only from God. IOW's without God giving us that humility and Loving through us, Love is not possible, but the core, or underlying characteristic of Love is humility. Think here of Christ and His humility and how that humility shows us what Love is.

Humility actually is a characteristic of love. It is born of kindness. I have the option of being mean to someone when I speak to them, gratifying my pride, or being kind to them, requiring me to be humble, which is to forego my prideful desire.

 

[razzelflabben]

It seems to suggest that you must think that hate and pride are something different than I do. Pride does not fit the inverse of 1 Cor 13, whereas hate does. I will not respond to the rest of your post, since it has now become debate and that is forbidden here.

hum...when I showed you examples of hate not following the inverse of I Cor. 13 you agreed, then went on to show that pride did as I pointed out in your post you saying. Interesting that you are now changing your answer again.

Humility actually is a characteristic of love. It is born of kindness. I have the option of being mean to someone when I speak to them, gratifying my pride, or being kind to them, requiring me to be humble, which is to forego my prideful desire.

Actually, kindness is born or humility as are every characteristic thereof, but as you said before, time to move on.

BY the way, just pointing out that this paragraph once again testifies to the truth of what I am saying about pride and humility and Love and pride being opposites, one is governed by humility the other by pride...just like I said and showed you in scripture, only to have you say it here when you are trying to disagree with me. Honestly, I think at this point it is best if you just take time to think things over.

 

[oi_antz]

pride can exist with or without hate, but hate always is associated with pride. That is one way we know that pride is the opposite of Love not hate.

I need to consider whether pride always conflicts with love. That will take time, perhaps days or weeks, but I feel it is valuable to mention at this time.

 

[oi_antz]

(Sorry, taken to PM to respect forum rules).

 

[razzelflabben]

hum...when I showed you examples of hate not following the inverse of I Cor. 13 you agreed, then went on to show that pride did as I pointed out in your post you saying. Interesting that you are now changing your answer again. Actually, kindness is born or humility as are every characteristic thereof, but as you said before, time to move on.

BY the way, just pointing out that this paragraph once again testifies to the truth of what I am saying about pride and humility and Love and pride being opposites, one is governed by humility the other by pride...just like I said and showed you in scripture, only to have you say it here when you are trying to disagree with me. Honestly, I think at this point it is best if you just take time to think things over.

apparently a comment in this post was not received with the intent for which it was offered...to that end, I publicly and officially apologize with sincerity for any misunderstanding.

 

[razzelflabben]

I need to consider whether pride always conflicts with love. That will take time, perhaps days or weeks, but I feel it is valuable to mention at this time.

which is what the post in question was trying to point out, that time was needed to digest...as I said, I went through the process myself, I get that. None the less, if the comment was out of place, it is necessary for me to apologize to which I have publically done as the comment was given in public

 

[oi_antz]

hum...when I showed you examples of hate not following the inverse of I Cor. 13 you agreed

I didn't agree. I said I would not bother addressing the rest of your post. Please do not carry on with me in this thread.

 

[oi_antz]

I didn't agree. I said I would not bother addressing the rest of your post. Please do not carry on with me in this thread.

Hang on, something has gone terribly awry with that quote in post 87. I blame this new website software, it does strange clever unexpected things. The whole reply that I quoted is all bunched up with no line breaks but when I formed it I actually isolated only part of your comment. Let me fix it to be as I intended.

 

[razzelflabben]

I didn't agree. I said I would not bother addressing the rest of your post. Please do not carry on with me in this thread.

I know you asked me not to respond here, but you both agreed and also said you would not address the rest in my post....to which I reminded you that all of the characteristics of I Cor. 13 had to be in place for it to be Love...thus all would have to be true of the inverse as to the opposite of Love. IOW's if even on characteristic doesn't apply, it isn't Love or the opposite when talking about inverse.

I wanted to make sure that you were not inflating what I said about you agreeing or disagreeing with that is all.

 

[oi_antz]

I know you asked me not to respond here, but you both agreed and also said you would not address the rest in my post....to which I reminded you that all of the characteristics of I Cor. 13 had to be in place for it to be Love...thus all would have to be true of the inverse as to the opposite of Love. IOW's if even on characteristic doesn't apply, it isn't Love or the opposite when talking about inverse.

I wanted to make sure that you were not inflating what I said about you agreeing or disagreeing with that is all.

Look at post 98, it was a mistake.