What if you’re wrong about hell?

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

[13] 1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this passage Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19] John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20] Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21] Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life. ​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25] John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

"The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Well how about that? I'm also an annihilationist, having faith that God will obliterate sin by transforming the sinner into a new creature. So annihilation's good news too, and Christological to boot.

Pardon me, but "annihilation" is usually understood to mean the eternal destruction and/or death of the person, not the sin...but I know where you're coming from, and agree with it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Pardon me, but "annihilation" is usually understood to mean the eternal destruction and/or death of the person, not the sin...but I know where you're coming from, and agree with it.

Hey Laz, you may not be up with the latest.
Have a read of Fine Linen's post #817 of this thread and watch a bit of the vid by Peter Hiett in the same post if you've the time, including the following:

Life annihilates death.

Goodness annihilates evil.

The Restitution Of All Things

Annihilation is swallowed up in restoration.

 

[Josheb]

So God's all functionally compartmentalised like a robotronic gearbox? Law mode upshift to grace mode. May I suggest there is no tension between grace and justice, or mercy and punishment, which are reconciled in restorative justice. All glory to the Great Physician, for His Salvation is the Omega Plan.

Let me know when you are able to participate in cogent discourse and can refrain from insinuating words in others posts they did not write.

I completely agree there is no tension between grace and justice and nothing I wrote should have been construed to say otherwise.

Well how about that? I'm also an annihilationist, having faith that God will obliterate sin by transforming the sinner into a new creature. So annihilation's good news too, and Christological to boot.

That's not annihilationism; that's universalism. I'd gladly discuss and debate the matter with you but universalism is a prohibited topic in this forum. In annihilationism God obliterates the sinner, not just sin. No endless torture. In annihilationism, He does not transform the obliterated creature into a new creature as was just errantly asserted. I encourage you not to try to pass off what you believe as something it isn't.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Let me know when you are able to participate in cogent discourse and can refrain from insinuating words in others posts they did not write.

I completely agree there is no tension between grace and justice and nothing I wrote should have been construed to say otherwise.

That's not annihilationism; that's universalism. I'd gladly discuss and debate the matter with you but universalism is a prohibited topic in this forum. In annihilationism God obliterates the sinner, not just sin. No endless torture. In annihilationism, He does not transform the obliterated creature into a new creature as was just errantly asserted. I encourage you not to try to pass off what you believe as something it isn't.

Overall, universalism is a prohibited topic on the Christian Forums, but allowed here in Controversial Christian Theology.

Puzzle me this: How does God ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell? Hint - annihilation still means you're dead.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Let me know when you are able to participate in cogent discourse and can refrain from insinuating words in others posts they did not write.

Ok, forgive me for reading 2 distinct propositions into your statement:

God is glorified in regards to His justice when He metes out the just response to sin. God is glorified in regards to His grace when He shows mercy and forgives.

It just appears to be 2 distinct propositions, and the use of 'metes out' contra 'shows mercy' implies to the young player that there's different treatment of the subjects. But as you've said misrepresented you, may I offer a full retraction.

I completely agree there is no tension between grace and justice and nothing I wrote should have been construed to say otherwise.

Great, so God metes out mercy then?

That's not annihilationism; that's universalism. I'd gladly discuss and debate the matter with you but universalism is a prohibited topic in this forum.

Universalism aka restorationism is not prohibited in this here controversial forum. So please, be at ease.
Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

And why can't the destruction of sin and the death of the 'old man' be classed as annihilationism? I'd venture to suggest it's actually true annihilationism (rather than the fallen broken version), purified in grace and truth - hence Christological.

A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. (Isa 42:3)

 

[Saint Steven]

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1Peter 4:17-19

@Shrewd Manager liked this post. I'll let him explain what's to like. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Ah, but the first will be last and the last will be first. So not only does this indicate your ascendancy in this area, but the fact the kings of the earth are likely to be last into the Kingdom of the King of Kings.

Seems like that would be a good interrogation technique. Work your way up. By the time you get to the top, little left to say, now that most of the evidence is clearly seen.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure it's so clear/ cut and dried. Seems all are judged individually on the basis of whether they are dead to Christ and need life. The judgments become progressively escalated until the final remedy for the stubborn recalcitrant and reprobate, being a bath in the LoF.

There's no doubt a lot of relevant OT prophecy that may shed more light on this.

Sorry, doubt I've answered your questions lol.

Yup, thanks for the valiant effort.
Seems there should be a logical progression here. But maybe this is just the way my brain likes things to be organized. Real life (or death) is usually messier than I would like. - lol

 

[Josheb]

Overall, universalism is a prohibited topic on the Christian Forums, but allowed here in Controversial Christian Theology.

I stand corrected and will adjust my posts accordingly in the future. Do you think it should be discussed those who misrepresent what they believe or put words into other's posts they did not write?

Puzzle me this: How does God ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell? Hint - annihilation still means you're dead.

I have already answered that question. I answered it before it was asked. Please re-read and think about what I posted and it's (logically necessary) implications, because it does answer your inquiry. I trust you'll understand my reluctance to go too far afield of the op. It's not my intent to hijack the conversation. I hope you have similar values and understand my mention of my view occurred solely within the context of whatever agreement might be had with Jersak's article.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sure it does. The opening of the article states,

"Recently, in response to my rejection of the hell of eternal torment, one of my readers offered a fairly common objection: 'I hope you’re right about that. BUT if you’re wrong about hell, then a lot of people will go there … and it will be your fault.'"
The entire article is built upon and written in response to that comment!

Seriously?
That is the basis, NOT THE CLAIM of the article. Be fair.

 

[Saint Steven]

And, Saint Steven, I am not an adherent to the endless-torture paradigm. I am an annihilationist.

Thank you.

 

[Josheb]

may I offer a full retraction.

You may.

Great, so God metes out mercy then?

What does scripture state?

Romans 9:14-18
"14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."​

He has mercy on whom He has mercy. He has mercy on whomever He wills.

And why can't the destruction of sin and the death of the 'old man' be classed as annihilationism?

Because words have meaning and the meaning of the annihilationist view is what I posted, not what you posted. Misrepresent your views or mine again and I will ignore your posts.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jersak's article is flawed.

Wanna talk about it?

Of course you would say that. You're an annihilationist.
Which is a concessional stage between Damnationism and Restorationism.
All three views of the final judgment have biblical support. Take your pick.

 

[Der Alte]

Let me know when you are able to participate in cogent discourse and can refrain from insinuating words in others posts they did not write.
I completely agree there is no tension between grace and justice and nothing I wrote should have been construed to say otherwise.
That's not annihilationism; that's universalism. I'd gladly discuss and debate the matter with you but universalism is a prohibited topic in this forum. In annihilationism God obliterates the sinner, not just sin. No endless torture. In annihilationism, He does not transform the obliterated creature into a new creature as was just errantly asserted. I encourage you not to try to pass off what you believe as something it isn't.

Universalism is permitted in this forum
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums

 

[LostMarbels]

As you already know, there are two kinds of death. Physical and spiritual.
Jesus paid for our spiritual death by giving us spiritual life.

Bingo. How do you explain this without broaching what the second death is? Your ascertain is to not speak about hell. Then what did Jesus save us from?

'Gods punishment' Ok, what is that punishment?

'Death' Well everyone dies. How do you broach the first resurrection, and second death topic without talking about hell? If its a semantics issue, Hell, sheol, Hades (however you feel the need to term it) and death itself is thrown into the lake of fire.

However, not everyone has received it yet. (obviously)

I am asking questions I myself have been presented with when witnessing to people.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

He has mercy on whom He has mercy. He has mercy on whomever He wills.

Not really moving the discussion along imho.

Because words have meaning and the meaning of the annihilationist view is what I posted, not what you posted. Misrepresent your views or mine again and I will ignore your posts.

Again I'm misrepresenting? Is it 'Your' annihilationism? I'm averring that annihilationism is purified in restorationism. It is the annihilation of spiritual enemies as per Eph 6:12 etc. Might not be your view, never said it was. I'm 'that kind' of annihilationist. Is that permitted sir? You might consider this a foul co-opting of your beloved doctrine, but I see it as rescuing it from death cult status. So do try to roll with it bro.

 

[Saint Steven]

Bingo. How do you explain this without broaching what the second death is? Your ascertain is to not speak about hell. Then what did Jesus save us from?

Spiritual death is in the here and now. It doesn't come to us in the afterlife. (curious term - afterlife)
We are already dead in Adam number one. Adam number two, Jesus, came to give us spiritual life in the here and now.

Saint Steven said: ↑
As you already know, there are two kinds of death. Physical and spiritual.
Jesus paid for our spiritual death by giving us spiritual life.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Recently, in response to my rejection of the hell of eternal torment, one of my readers offered a fairly common objection: “I hope you’re right about that. BUT if you’re wrong about hell, then a lot of people will go there … and it will be your fault. Wouldn’t it be better to play it safe just to be sure?”

For people like that, I just say, "Do you want me to follow Scripture regardless of feelings or any human sentiments or reservations, OR NOT? Because if you're saying I should turn back to the eternal torment/immortal souls doctrine even after finding the conditional immortality stance to have far greater and clearer backup in Scripture, to 'play it safe', then don't continue to give me the BS argumentation during debates on this topic that I and other conditionslists only reject eternal torment on account of personal emotion, faulty 'human reasoning', or wanting to 'water down the Gospel'."

 

[Charlie24]

Overall, universalism is a prohibited topic on the Christian Forums, but allowed here in Controversial Christian Theology.

Puzzle me this: How does God ever become All in all if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell? Hint - annihilation still means you're dead.

Good question, how does God become "all in all?"

The answer is found in the context of 1Cor.15:24-28

vs. 24, Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

During the reign of Christ, He will rule the world, putting down all power and authority of man.

This is how He will "deliver up the Kingdom to God."

This is the end, no more sin on earth, nor more sinners on earth.

The plan of the Triune God from the foundation of the world is now complete.

God is now all in all.