What if you’re wrong about hell?

[Charlie24]

From a CWR (Christianity Without Religion) article by Brad Jersak titled:
What if you’re wrong about hell?
(Source link: Q&R with Brad Jersak: What if you're wrong about hell?)
Note this is more to read at the link than what I have posted in the OP here.

Comments and discussion welcome.

Q&R with Brad Jersak: What if you’re wrong about hell?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Question:
Recently, in response to my rejection of the hell of eternal torment, one of my readers offered a fairly common objection: “I hope you’re right about that. BUT if you’re wrong about hell, then a lot of people will go there … and it will be your fault. Wouldn’t it be better to play it safe just to be sure?”

The following response was adapted from a much longer essay from Clarion Journal, titled, “Let’s Talk about Hell BETTER or “If You’re Wrong, a Lot of People Will Go to Hell & It’s Your Fault” by Brad Jersak.

Response: The Wager
This high stakes objection is worthy of a careful response.

1. “Wrong about hell” in what way? The implication seems to imply that I don’t believe there’s a hell or that the hell I believe in is not something to worry about. Not so! Of course I believe in hell. I’ve been there. I’ve seen it with my eyes, in my spirit and in my Bible. And now I preach the good news, knowing that Christ conquered hades (Rev. 1:18) to rescue us and he came back victorious with a host of captives (Mark 3:27, Eph. 4:8). I see no reason to believe that my conviction that hell is horrendous but not eternal would endanger a single soul of going there.
2. Are we saved by belief in Christ or by belief in hell? I assume that objectors believe that the material cause of our salvation is Jesus Christ and the efficient cause is faith in his name. Nowhere do the Scriptures demand belief in a particular doctrine of hell as a requirement for saving faith. No doctrine of hell entered New Testament evangelism or our confession of faith at baptism. One can check every evangelistic sermon in Acts to verify this.
3. The ‘Safe’ Wager: The charge seems to be rooted in a fear-based wager that ultimately bites itself in the behind. The wager goes like this: IF eternal conscious torment is even a possibility, then we’d better warn people about it or they will end up there. Makes sense, right? Well… that might have worked in Jonathan Edwards time. I say might because can we be so sure that those who repent out of fear of being roasted alive forever actually responded in willing faith to Jesus Christ? Did they love him because they’d God’s love in the revelation of the Cross? Or did Edwards merely convince them to convert with the eternal conscious gun to their heads? Is that saving faith?

But for the sake of our wager, let’s say it was. Let’s say that gospel did work. And let’s say Edwards was completely right: that hell is eternal conscious torment and salvation is Jesus’ way out of the white-hot wrath of God. Let’s say eternal conscious torment is the clear and present danger. If so, then we need to determine which gospel will BEST save people from that fate.

Here’s the troubling news: preaching eternal hellfire no longer scares people into Jesus arms. Statistically, it creates atheists by the millions. If you’re truly worried about people going to hell, then you had better NOT mention it, because such preaching is among the top stated reasons why people now reject Christ.

This is a fact in the 21st century: people today reject the good news of Jesus Christ when we import hellfire preaching into our gospel. They do this because:

• It sounds more like medieval mythology than gospel truth. It doesn’t resonate at all.
• It looks more like a B-grade horror movie than something anchored to reality.
• It sabotages the evangelist’s credibility because it doesn’t sound like the foolishness of the gospel (Christ and him crucified). It sounds more like the silliness of radical fundamentalism.
• It enables the listener to defer judgment to an imagined “later” rather than facing all the ways they are already perishing and in bondage to the kingdom of hell today.

So, if you are truly afraid that people will go to hell, DO NOT tell them about it. But my suspicion is that the greater fear is that we ourselves might go to hell if we don’t get it right, even if we cause others to reject Christ through our hellacious threats.

Jesus preached hell fire in the beginning of the 1st century, but it's wrong to preach it in this 21st century?

It sounds to me the sinner just doesn't want to hear it. They don't want to be reminded that God is love and in order to be that God, he must also be a God of Judgement.

 

[Saint Steven]

They don't want to be reminded that God is love and in order to be that God, he must also be a God of Judgement.

Isn't that called Dualism? (Janus-faced)

 

[Charlie24]

Isn't that called Dualism? (Janus-faced)

Whatever it is, it's a problem you have with Jesus, and not those who preach the same as He did!

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus preached hell fire in the beginning of the 1st century, but it's wrong to preach it in this 21st century?

Because in the 21st century (much earlier than that actually) we discovered that Jesus didn't preach hell fire in the 1st century. That's why.

 

[Saint Steven]

Whatever it is, it's a problem you have with Jesus, and not those who preach the same as He did!

On the contrary my good man.
Would you like being called two-faced? I don't expect God would like it either.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Isn't that called Dualism? (Janus-faced)

 

[Charlie24]

Because in the 21st century (much earlier than that actually) we discovered that Jesus didn't preach hell fire in the 1st century. That's why.

The UR must have finally written their own Bible, because you are surly not speaking of the Bible that is sitting on my desk top right now.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Although I have corrected you more than once you continue to post this blatantly false "definition" of eksomoleo. Here is the definition from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.
.....And before you even think about rejecting this as biased the ONLY way you can do that is review every one of the sources I have highlighted in blue and and show how they do not support the conclusions of the BDAG authors.
And you can't do that unless you have a working knowledge of Greek which I am quite sure you do not have..

ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III b.c.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 b.c.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).
① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).
② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 a.d.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.
③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.
④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[public hermit]

Are we saved by belief in Christ or by belief in hell?

False dichotomy. Pistis Christou (subjective genitive). We are saved not by faith in Christ, but by the faithfulness of Christ. Well, that's the side of the Pistis Christou debate with which I side. Gratefully, it doesn't matter which side I align myself with, because Christ was and is and always will be faithful.

 

[Blade]

So what if I am wrong about hell? A I don't talk as if I am right. You give them what is written. They make the choice. And to not talk about it ..for me this would be going against His word. Not sure what we think of MAN well the angels that fell... yeah God didn't spare them at all. Sorry who do we think we are then? It just took that one sin and its over for those. And lol here we are each talking as if we know how GOD really is. One thing GOD is not.. that is human/man. He thinks not like man acts like talks like.. man.

I truly wonder if anyone has really seen hell. For one the stories never match. Then there is always fear.. great fear. No fear of God but burning. Then thats not the fear of God. Goes against everything I have learned about my Father. In all this I am talking about those that KNOW God is real and choose not to follow Him. I just am not one of those that believe few will be saved. I believe its far easier to be saved than lost.

I tell them why He came.. show them they way out. I never use fear. Not of God. It(hell) was made for Satan and his angels. A real place. And anyone that follows him will get the same reward. God already spoke His word. He will not change, ever. Things like "riding the fence" or "middle ground". Yeah both are not of God. Thats of Satan. We ARE for Christ or were not. Your WITH HIM or your not. So we can give Him 24/7 every part of our life or not.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20. You know the place that was made for Satan and his angels.

 

[Der Alte]

Because in the 21st century (much earlier than that actually) we discovered that Jesus didn't preach hell fire in the 1st century. That's why.

Nonsense! And I have proved it many times from historical Jewish sources, which have never been refuted.

 

[LostMarbels]

But my suspicion is that the greater fear is that we ourselves might go to hell if we don’t get it right,

That ended up being a large part of my current walk with Christ.

For me, it is a moment of growth or maturity. In my endeavors to figure out what hell was, I stumbled upon reason after reason of why I deserve to be there. I quickly came to realise that God is just. God is right, and just to condemn me for my wickedness. My lusts. My strife. Anger. Willful disobedience of him.

I came to see I am not immune to this judgment. I rightly deserve God's honest judgment of my wrongdoings. What happened is I flipped this on it's head. I serve God knowing I am worthy of his judgment, not his praise. I Confess Jesus as Christ, and the Word of God manifest in the flesh despite of hell, not in fear of it. I ask God give me the faith to follow him even if he decides to cast me into hell. God is just. His judgment is correct. I willingly accept his judgment. May God forgive me in his grace afforded to us by our Lord and Savior Jesus, The Christ.

For me I find it inconceivable to only follow God in fear of reprisals of action I commited. It is not God's fault. I betrayed him. If God, my creator, decides to cast his creation aside; do I curse his name? Do I denounce Christ because I do not like his soverighn judgement of me? No. You go with praise on your lips trusting in God. Same could be said concerning the gallows. God is just in condemning me to hell, as he is codeming me to die for my faith in him. Consider the cost. I accepted payment, and said I would follow.

In that light I came to understand hell doesn't matter. I am not commanded to preach in the name of hell. I do not need a 'correct' understanding of hell to become saved, and such discussions are nothing more than intriguing conversation among brethren. It is something I don't even believe it is realy for those not rooted in Christ. It is more of a 'meat' vrs a 'milk' topic.

But the underpinning gospel of Christ is the forgiveness of sins, which the penalty for is death. The message is that hell was not prepared for us. And Christ came to save us. How do you preach this without preaching what that death is?

 

[Saint Steven]

The UR must have finally written their own Bible, because you are surly not speaking of the Bible that is sitting on my desk top right now.

If that book says that Jesus failed to conquer sin once and for all, I would push it off the desk into the trash.

 

[Saint Steven]

And Christ came to save us. How do you preach this without preaching what that death is?

The penalty for sin is death. Christ paid that penalty for all of humanity.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

 

[Charlie24]

If that book says that Jesus failed to conquer sin once and for all, I would push it off the desk into the trash.

I'm still praying for you Steven! It wasn't just something I said, I meant it, Brother.

 

[Der Alte]

…..Two thousand years before Jack Chick. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm still praying for you Steven! It wasn't just something I said, I meant it, Brother.

I'm not lost. I'm easily found right here. - lol

 

[LostMarbels]

The penalty for sin is death. Christ paid that penalty for all of humanity.

Yup. Kind of figured that out decades ago when I accepted Jesus. What are you trying to convey here?

 

[Hillsage]

I was involved in inner city evangelism and felt a lack of concern for the lost.

I prayed about this, simply being honest before Him about my lack of heart concern.

Within days I had a deeply frightening vision, being led to the very rim of the pit by an angel.
It was frightening, overwhelmingly repugnant and I asked the angel 'do I have to go any closer.?'

This changed my heart 360.

This helped to motivate my reaching out - but I never once mentioned it in the course of presenting the good news.

I did mention it preaching to believers - you could have heard a pin drop...

I have an unresolved question kicking around.

I saw no people in there - maybe an empty place prepared for after Judgement?

I was taught that the ‘simpler the word seems, the more spiritual need there was to interpret correctly. And the more vague a prophetic word was, the more literally it could be discerned.

Those who have been raised believing in eternal torture will obviously lean toward their first teaching/understanding . This is merely a fulfillment of ‘the law of first impressions’ which all of ‘us’ are subject to concerning things.

Does ‘The Prophet’ see ‘empty’...the ‘temporal place of preparation’, or does he see ‘empty’...the ‘eternal place in fulfillment’?

 

[Charlie24]

I'm not lost. I'm easily found right here. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Yup. Kind of figured that out decades ago when I accepted Jesus. What are you trying to convey here?

You asked: "How do you preach this without preaching what that death is?"

Saint Steven said: ↑
The penalty for sin is death. Christ paid that penalty for all of humanity.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.