What if you’re wrong about hell?

[Carl Emerson]

This is the Evangelical fallacy. That everyone going into the afterlife has had the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. It just isn't so. Countless billions have never so much as heard the name of Christ.

Romans 1:20 covers this objection, they will be judged by the response they made to the evidence of Christ in creation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree with your points, but @Basil the Great is not claiming to stand up for the Creed, he is only questioning the aspect of it that requires belief in ECT to be saved. And he is probably right, that is the common understanding of it. (not that he agrees with that)

Thanks Steve. Basil made a few claims, the ones I found objectionable were (a) the Creed contains ECT and/or (b) ECT was the 'honest' interpretation of those words.

These claims are simply not true.

Athanasian Creed:
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

UR of course accepts 'those who have done evil will enter eternal fire'. As I pointed out, entry into eternal fire is in no way inconsistent with the restoration narrative. I take offence at the insinuation that it's 'dishonest' to say that means anything but ECT, particularly because that would be contradicting the testimony of scripture, which shows us that the nations go into the fire and later return repentant. (Rev 20:15, 21:8, 21:24-26, 22:2)

It's at least intellectually sloppy to conflate eternal fire with eternal destiny, and also disingenuous, disobedient and distrusting, as you'd have to deny the scriptures, the power of God and the total victory of Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well lets look at the verses you sighted...

Rev 20:15 - no repentance there...
Rev 21:8 - none there either...
Rev 21:24-26 - well you omitted 27 which clearly stated this company of people do not include the wicked - they are specifically mentioned as excluded. Only those written in the Lambs Book of Life are included.
Rev 22:2 continues the theme of the company of the righteous not the wicked.

 

[FineLinen]

Well lets look at the verses you sighted...

Rev 20:15 - no repentance there...
Rev 21:8 - none there either...
Rev 21:24-26 - well you omitted 27 which clearly stated this company of people do not include the wicked - they are specifically mentioned as excluded. Only those written in the Lambs Book of Life are included.
Rev 22:2 continues the theme of the company of the righteous not the wicked.

Carl: the end of the story of our Father's plan ends in Himself where it began. All four hells are swallowed up in His zao life. Nothing but nothing escapes His Grasp!

From Him ta pavnte, thru Him ta pavnte, for Him ta pavnte.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well that sounds very poetic but the scripture does not seem to support the redemption of every living soul as a long term plan.

Did not Paul himself say...

Rom 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

 

[FineLinen]

Well that sounds very poetic but the scripture does not seem to support the redemption of every living soul as a long term plan.

Did not Paul himself say...

Rom 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Carl this is no mere poetic utterance. It flows from the same St. Paul who writes in the same wonderful Book of Romans of ta pavnte, and the whole of created life being delivered. The radical all of pas.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 1:20 covers this objection, they will be judged by the response they made to the evidence of Christ in creation.

No, my good man. It simply does not. Yet another Evangelical fallacy.
This is good. Let's work through them all.

Does not Romans 1:20 only deal with the recognition of the creator through his creation? Where is the mention of Christ in this? And where is the opportunity to accept or reject? Please help me, for I cannot see it. Thanks.

Saint Steven said: ↑
This is the Evangelical fallacy. That everyone going into the afterlife has had the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. It just isn't so. Countless billions have never so much as heard the name of Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

FL...

Can you advise the verse you are referring to please?

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks Steve. Basil made a few claims, the ones I found objectionable were (a) the Creed contains ECT and/or (b) ECT was the 'honest' interpretation of those words.

These claims are simply not true.

Athanasian Creed:
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

UR of course accepts 'those who have done evil will enter eternal fire'. As I pointed out, entry into eternal fire is in no way inconsistent with the restoration narrative. I take offence at the insinuation that it's 'dishonest' to say that means anything but ECT, particularly because that would be contradicting the testimony of scripture, which shows us that the nations go into the fire and later return repentant. (Rev 20:15, 21:8, 21:24-26, 22:2)

It's at least intellectually sloppy to conflate eternal fire with eternal destiny, and also disingenuous, disobedient and distrusting, as you'd have to deny the scriptures, the power of God and the total victory of Christ.

Again, I agree in principle.
However, I think @Basil the Great makes a good point (with his question) and I understand that he doesn't agree with the standard understanding of the Creed. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Consider this point.
If we went to a church that had for its Creed the one in question and asked them what it meant, what do we suppose they would say? I rather doubt they would agree with us.

Therefore, the point is that in churches that have adopted the Creed, it is required that they believe it and their understanding of it overwhelming would be in favor of ECT.

Does that makes sense?

 

[Saint Steven]

Well that sounds very poetic but the scripture does not seem to support the redemption of every living soul as a long term plan.

That depends on which scriptures you are looking at.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well lets look at the verses you sighted...

Rev 20:15 - no repentance there...
Rev 21:8 - none there either...
Rev 21:24-26 - well you omitted 27 which clearly stated this company of people do not include the wicked - they are specifically mentioned as excluded. Only those written in the Lambs Book of Life are included.
Rev 22:2 continues the theme of the company of the righteous not the wicked.

Hello there Carl. Let's have a closer look, shall we?

Rev 20:15: Anyone not found in the Book of Life cast into the lake of fire.

Right, so that would include unbelieving ppl of the nations, no? Let's check:

Rev 21:8: but the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile etc are consigned to the lake.

Aha! The unbelievers, check. In they go.

Rev 21:24: Look, the nations coming to the New Jerusalem to bring honour, and the kings of the earth their glory!

What the..? The nations are BACK! And subdued to Christ! Surely not.

Rev 22:22b: 'and the leaves of the tree of life were for the healing of the nations.'

They've been purified in the Lake and come in to bring their honour and be healed with the living in Christ.

How does that grab you, Big Carl, viable or piffle?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Again, I agree in principle.
However, I think @Basil the Great makes a good point (with his question) and I understand that he doesn't agree with the standard understanding of the Creed. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Consider this point.
If we went to a church that had for its Creed the one in question and asked them what it meant, what do we suppose they would say? I rather doubt they would agree with us.

Therefore, the point is that in churches that have adopted the Creed, it is required that they believe it and their understanding of it overwhelming would be in favor of ECT.

Does that makes sense?

Sure it's an easy mistake to make, and backed up by centuries of learned dogma. But it's a test of faith and reason. Is it the fire that cleanses for salvation or an endless mass human bbq just for kicks? Really, you're going to opt for the latter cause that's how it looks on the surface? And there's nobody in the church to say 'Hang on, that doesn't seem to fit with the idea that God wins, can we have a closer look please?'

The devil loves conformity and groupthink. What do you say?

 

[Saint Steven]

Sure it's an easy mistake to make, and backed up by centuries of learned dogma. But it's a test of faith and reason. Is it the fire that cleanses for salvation or an endless mass human bbq just for kicks? Really, you're going to opt for the latter cause that's how it looks on the surface? And there's nobody in the church to say 'Hang on, that doesn't seem to fit with the idea that God wins, can we have a closer look please?'

The devil loves conformity and groupthink. What do you say?

For the third time, I TOTALLY agree with what you are saying about ECT.
What I don't agree with is your take on @Basil the Great .
He doesn't agree with the creed. (as understood by those who use it)
I think you mistook his explanations as "claims", which they weren't. As I understand it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

For the third time, I TOTALLY agree with what you are saying about ECT.
What I don't agree with is your take on @Basil the Great .
He doesn't agree with the creed. (as understood by those who use it)
I think you mistook his explanations as "claims", which they weren't. As I understand it.

I understand Basil was saying he doesn't subscribe to ECT. But he did say:

The only fair way to interpret the creed is that eternal fire = eternal stay and eternal punishment. I certainly do not agree with the creed, especially that belief in such is required for salvation, but this is the honest way to interpret the creed, in my view, and I dare say in the view of most here in CF.

I'm disputing that equating the duration of the fire with ultimate destiny of the wicked is 'the honest way to interpret the creed' (as per Basil's opinion).

It's requires making a bunch of assumptions about the nature of the fire, the divine will etc which to me renders it a dishonest interpretation, at least in the absence of those assumptions being made explicit. It's an attempt to 'throw a fast one'. Which seems to have worked a treat, mind you.

 

[Randy777]

This is the Evangelical fallacy. That everyone going into the afterlife has had the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ. It just isn't so. Countless billions have never so much as heard the name of Christ.

I have never met anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus have you? But if such exist they could never be part of such conversations. If such exist I would state they are neither saved or condemned but will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgment concerning them. I would add nothing is hidden from Him.

There is no question in my mind about the 2nd death its clear to me in scripture. Some argue annihilation of the soul in the fire. The words tormented or torture suggest awareness to me. Even the demons knew their outcome.

"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

So even if God can unmake a spirit or soul He doesn't appear to do so.

stern warnings
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

The Hades Jesus spoke about here was a place of suffering.
So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire

Part of the NT message is the wrath of God on those who continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth. Like the first covenant the new covenant also has curses and blessings.

Before the lie of the beast is allowed into the world God will appoint His two witnesses and they will witness for 1260 days in Jerusalem . No power will be allowed to stop this last warning to the people of the earth for God is a loving and just God who warns and warns upfront. If any in those days has even a shred of faith or love of God they will believe and repent and become members of the body of Christ. Those who take joy in their deaths, as the whole world looks on, will be deceived by the lie of the beast that follows as they love to do evil and refuse to repent and believe God. If any willfully take the mark of the beast and worship the beast their place will be the 2nd death.

As is written
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[FineLinen]

I have never met anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus have you? But if such exist they could never be part of such conversations.

As a matter of fact I have!

Has Everyone Heard? | Joshua Project

 

[Randy777]

As a matter of fact I have!

Has Everyone Heard? | Joshua Project

When and where and who?

I assume for you to know that you had a conversation about Jesus so I guess that person now has heard of Jesus while in the life of the body and is not someone who has died never having heard of Jesus.

I have yet to meet such a person who has never heard of Christianity or Jesus.

 

[Basil the Great]

Again, I agree in principle.
However, I think @Basil the Great makes a good point (with his question) and I understand that he doesn't agree with the standard understanding of the Creed. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Consider this point.
If we went to a church that had for its Creed the one in question and asked them what it meant, what do we suppose they would say? I rather doubt they would agree with us.

Therefore, the point is that in churches that have adopted the Creed, it is required that they believe it and their understanding of it overwhelming would be in favor of ECT.

Does that makes sense?

I think that we need to look at the creed with some context. The Early Church Father Augustine admitted that many in his day did not believe in eternal punishment, despite the teaching in the Scriptures. It would appear that there must have been a big dispute about the subject within a few generations after Augustine and the majority must have felt that the only way to win the day was to force their viewpoint on everyone with a creed that mandated said belief in order to achieve salvation.

 

[FineLinen]

I have yet to meet such a person who has never heard of Christianity or Jesus.

Randy: I am sure in your wide circle you have never met such a person.

However > > >

Has Everyone Heard? | Joshua Project

 

[Randy777]

Randy: I am sure in your wide circle you have never met such a person.

However > > >

Has Everyone Heard? | Joshua Project

But as I have stated if such a person existed then I would state they are neither saved nor condemned but will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgment concerning them. Nothing is hidden from Him. I know Christianity is known in India.