What if you’re wrong about hell?

The Athanasian Creed says that we are doomed to Hell, if we do not profess a belief in eternal punishment. Hence, what are we to do? I guess that we can say that the Athanasian Creed was a way for the majority to force it's view on all Christians back then and that we are not bound by such a creed? However, we take a chance to take such a position, for if the Creed is correct, then we are lost. It is rather strange that if the doctrine of eternal punishment is such a core belief for the Christian faith, then why was it not included in the Nicene Creed?

Basil the Great said:

The Athanasian Creed says that we are doomed to Hell, if we do not profess a belief in eternal punishment. Hence, what are we to do? I guess that we can say that the Athanasian Creed was a way for the majority to force it's view on all Christians back then and that we are not bound by such a creed? However, we take a chance to take such a position, for if the Creed is correct, then we are lost. It is rather strange that if the doctrine of eternal punishment is such a core belief for the Christian faith, then why was it not included in the Nicene Creed?

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Any creed that ends with the Author & Finisher of the all losing the broken wrecks of Adam1 fails miserably!

Jesus the Christ loses nothing!

"God is not only King and Judge, God is Father – he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family forever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family.

The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God." -Dr. Wm. Barclay-

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of heaven, earth & underworld worshipping IN/EN Him!

Charlie24 said:

Jesus preached hell fire in the beginning of the 1st century, but it's wrong to preach it in this 21st century?

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Jesus warned of Gehenna, as do i as a born again Christian who accepts that Scripture teaches universal salvation.

There's nothing wrong with preaching Gehenna fire, but as the OP implies preaching an endless torture chamber turns many people away from Christ who is then seen as something infinitely worse than Hitler, Satan & Stalin combined.


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If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

Der Alte said:

Nonsense! And I have proved it many times from historical Jewish sources, which have never been refuted.

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Der Alter said:

…According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

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"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


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100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

Der Alte said:

…..Two thousand years before Jack Chick. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

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In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Der Alte said:

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

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Your entire post has been addressed before:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13).

BTW, is "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) not also "under the heavens". Evidently those there are, for there own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

Charlie24 said:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1Peter 4:17-19

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he-man said:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

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1 Pet.4:17b what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (NASB, likewise NIV, ESV, BSB, BLB, NAS, etc).

Answer: they go to Hades &/or the lake of fire until they are saved.

What "judgement" was about to "begin at the house of God" (1 Pet.4:17)? 70 AD when the Romans came & the Christians lives were "saved" by fleeing from Jerusalem?

"The judgment here spoken of is thought by many commentators to signify the particular distress which was to happen before Jerusalem should be utterly destroyed."

"...Whoever compares the accounts in the Scriptures, or ancient fathers, concerning the persecutions which befell the Christians about this time, with the sufferings of the Jews, as related by Josephus, will easily see that the distress only began with the Christians, and was light compared with what afterward fell upon the Jews: for when Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians escaped with their lives, and enjoyed more peace and tranquillity than they had done before."
1 Peter 4:17 Commentaries: For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

he-man said:

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

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Saved from what? Death at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD? Hades where the rich man went? The lake of fire?

18 and if the just one scarcely is safe, the impious one and sinner where will appear? (DG)
18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (NIV)

If it is hard/difficult (NIV) for the righteous to be saved, how much harder/more difficult will it be for the ungodly to be saved. That doesn't prove the ungodly can't be saved. In fact they won't be saved from Hades & the lake of fire, if they persist in rebellion. But even those who go to the lake of fire will eventually be saved.

18 And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (NIV)

Saved from what? Saved from endless tortures or endless annihilation? Or saved from going to be tormented in Hades or the LOF? And, then, being tormented only until they find salvation in Christ their Lord, "the Savior of the world" (Jn.4:42).

17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?

Peter asks these questions. Does he know the answer to them? Does he tell us?

Saved from what? Going to Hades? The lake of fire? Then being saved when the lake of fire (the 2nd death) is abolished when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes All "in all" (v.28), even all who were in Adam (v.22).

Compare from the same chapter of 1 Pet.4:

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

and from 1 Pet 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
and here Peter speaks again:

Acts 3:21 whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of restoration of all, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age.

And Paul:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


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Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

Basil the Great said:

The Athanasian Creed says that we are doomed to Hell, if we do not profess a belief in eternal punishment. Hence, what are we to do? I guess that we can say that the Athanasian Creed was a way for the majority to force it's view on all Christians back then and that we are not bound by such a creed? However, we take a chance to take such a position, for if the Creed is correct, then we are lost. It is rather strange that if the doctrine of eternal punishment is such a core belief for the Christian faith, then why was it not included in the Nicene Creed?

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Is that correct? The Athanasian Creed says, relevantly:

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.
[...]
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

So entering eternal fire is common to all eschatologies. UR just says they emerge, because the fire has a purifying, transformative, corrective and restorative purpose. And Christ is triumphant. Details really.

As for the bit about perishing eternally if you don't keep the Creed, seems annihilation is set as the penalty for this infraction. Unfortunately, I can't find any reference to this heinous crime in the Bible itself (ie not keeping the Athanasian Creed). What am I missing here Basil?

I know of nothing in Scripture which says salvation is dependent upon one's belief in eternal damnation. However, the Athanasian Creed does state such and those who adhere to said creed are staking such a stance. (I am not such a person)

Basil the Great said:

I know of nothing in Scripture which says salvation is dependent upon one's belief in eternal damnation. However, the Athanasian Creed does state such and those who adhere to said creed are staking such a stance. (I am not such a person)

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Sorry, but where does the Athanasian Creed aver eternal damnation? I quoted the only potentially relevant parts. The eternal fire doesn't require an eternal stay.

Der Alte said:

The only folks sweeping hell under the carpet are UR-ites.

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The endless inquisitional torture chamber hell, yes.

The corrective hell of Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures, no.


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I destroyed all your "proof texts" against universalism showing they failed as such "proof texts". That's why your quoted verses are so lame. If Scripture actually taught the endless tortures or endless annihilation doctrine, why isn't it being shouted in the most clear language repeatedly from Genesis to Revelation. Such doctrines are a joke.

Yet another lame, feeble, failing attempt to support your theology. Nothing there states there are no more chances after the second coming. Nothing there states the Love of Love Crucified the Omnipotent has expired like a carton of milk & the Almighty is powerless to save. Nothing states Love unending will hold grudges, bitterness and hate against anyone for all eternity, as your theology would have us believe.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

May the Lord keep, bless & heal you.

Shrewd Manager said:

Sorry, but where does the Athanasian Creed aver eternal damnation? I quoted the only potentially relevant parts. The eternal fire doesn't require an eternal stay.

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The only fair way to interpret the creed is that eternal fire = eternal stay and eternal punishment. I certainly do not agree with the creed, especially that belief in such is required for salvation, but this is the honest way to interpret the creed, in my view, and I dare say in the view of most here in CF.

Basil the Great said:

The only fair way to interpret the creed is that eternal fire = eternal stay and eternal punishment. I certainly do not agree with the creed, especially that belief in such is required for salvation, but this is the honest way to interpret the creed, in my view, and I dare say in the view of most here in CF.

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Basil, that's a big claim. And I suggest formally erroneous. Here are a few reasons why:

1. If I were to tell you I was going to a place that has been there since time immemorial, I hope you wouldn't assume I was never coming back.
2. There's quite a difference in scripture between divine fire and earthly fire, and there are many examples of the purificatory function of divine fire, the Jews understood this quite well, eg refining and consuming the dross.
3. Through the work of the Cross, God has revealed the destiny of mankind to be resurrection from death. Good news!
4. God's covenant of grace is the promise that He'll go to absolute lengths to save even those who reject Him. That's true love. Exceedingly good news!
5. Death itself shall be the last enemy vanquished, leaving life alone victorious. Much rejoicing!

So I put it to you that no matter what 'most here in CF' might opine Basil, there are more things in heaven and earth than a demotic rendering of God's truth. All things may indeed appear yellow to the jaundiced eye, but there's nothing sallow or malnourished about Grace, rather it's sanguine and vivacious, abounding in love, life and hope over and against the mutterings of doom and gloom.

Don't you get it my friend, the shackles of fear and doubt are cast off through our inspired affirmation of God's absolute perfect true love, the total victory of Christ assured.

Personally, I am not one who believes that God will torture people forever, be it with fire or some other means. Perhaps God might sentence people to a dark and lonely place, but I cannot see God torturing people for all eternity and yet most CF posters would say such.

This is an area of speculation to some degree as hard facts are scant and what is literal is not clear.

My view is that we must start our understanding at all times from the hub of truth that God is both loving and just.

For this to be true the suggestion that ones rejection of God and love is eternally sealed at death and the godless have their desire to be so isolated in a loveless eternity is granted.

To attribute the ramifications of this destination to God is unjustified.

There has to be recompense for the suffering of the innocent.

I must say that to ponder on the cry of Jesus to the Father 'forgive them for they know not what they do" begs the question - was this prayer answered?