What if you’re wrong about hell?

[Lazarus Short]

It is not a threat. To hate God is to love wickedness, and Hellfire is the natural outcome of wickedness. “The wages of sin are death.”

Yes, the wages are death...not "Hellfire."

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, you make a strong case for Hell and eternal punishment when looking at the words of Jesus. However...... and most of you will not like to hear this, but the same Jesus taught that that those who do not show mercy to the hungry and homeless will go to Hell, even if they call him "Lord". Hence, while important, one's faith will not save him, if he fails to perform acts of love and mercy.

I totally agree.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, the wages are death...not "Hellfire."

But something happens after death. What did Daniel say about the resurrection Daniel 12:2?

 

[Basil the Great]

Let's look at this logically. Something changed between the time that the Nicene Creed was adopted and when the Athanasian Creed was accepted by the Catholic Church. The Nicene Creed did not address the issue of eternal punishment. Hence, this would seem to indicate that there was not near unanimous agreement on the subject by the time of Constantine and/or that the Church Fathers then did not view the issue as as essential point of doctrine. However, within a century or two later, apparently a big disagreement arose over the issue and those in the majority insisted that eternal punishment had to be professed or one was a heretic.

Personally, I am uncertain regarding the issue. However, I certainly do not believe that the vast majority of mankind is headed for eternal torment/torture, without any hope of redemption, as many here on CF seem to believe.

 

[Der Alte]

We are already dead at birth. Spiritually dead. Born to the consequence of sin.
To claim that the victims of hell hate God is a justification smoke screen.
Does an agnostic hate God, or are they just not sufficiently convinced?
Do those raised under other religions hate God, or are they lacking knowledge?
Would you put these folks in a forever burning hell?
- The countless billions raised outside of Christianity.
- The countless billions who are not fully convinced yet.
All toast?
Saint Steven said: ↑
How is the threat of hell "voluntary and devoid of coercion"?

Romans 4:15 Romans 5;13

I would never say that one isn't a parable. They are all parables. Christ said so himself. A lot of Christian assert that Christ's words are literal, but for some reason, I never see removing eyes, feet or hands. Fancy that!

If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to seek any other sense. The UR rule is apparently, If something in the Bible contradicts UR teaching then it must be figurative etc.

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5)

.

Is there any other credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support either one of these guys? One or 2 guys does NOT a consensus make. For you information the Nestle text is NOT a single manuscript. If you had ever read Nestle-Aland you would know that the different manuscripts are identified almost on every page. It is called the "textual apparatus."

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, perhaps Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. It's called exaggerated emphasis. (as I recall)
Here's a curious thing. Notice the use of descriptive language in all these scriptures
below.
- Sodom is restored from "eternal" fire. Prophesied to be "a wasteland forever".
- Ammon and Moab are restored from being "a wasteland forever" (like Sodom)
- Elam is restored even though prophesied to "fall to rise no more".
- The same for Egypt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”
Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,
The restoration of Ammon and Moab
Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”
Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’
Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.
The restoration of Elam
Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’
Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
The restoration of Egypt
Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’
Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

Were the same people, families etc. who were destroyed resurrected and restored or do they still remain destroyed? Were the cities, buildings which were destroyed restored as they were before or were new cities, buildings erected?

 

[Der Alte]

This is the rationale for blaming hell on the victims. Because "people who hate God" deserve to be there, right? Well, don't we all deserve to be there?
And those fortunate souls (the Elect) that were predestined to avoid victimization can be thankful that it is someone else who is burning for all eternity with no hope of escape. PTL
Even though the Bible teaches us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
If I love someone, I wouldn't dream of consigning them to an eternal BBQ.
Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Was God showing His love when He destroyed 1000s of people in the flood, men, women, children, infants?
Was God showing His love when He burned 1000s of people to death in Sodom, Gomorrah and other cities?
Was God showing His love when He destroyed all the people who rebelled at Sinai?
Was God showing His love when He commanded Israel to go in to Caananite cities and kill all living things, men, women, children, infants?

 

[Der Alte]

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

This little blurb is all there is to it. One guy saying something but providing no, zero, none credible, verifiable , historical evidence. I for one would never stake my salvation on the unsupported words of one guy,

 

[Der Alte]

I take it that you are getting that from this these to verses.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
You need to bear in mind, that these are parables, and not to be taken at face value. They are very deep, require significant scriptural understanding to interpret correctly.

Wrong! Neither passage is in the form of a parable. The English word "parable" is from the Greek word παραβολη/parabole, which means lay beside. In a parable something unknown or misunderstood is explained or clarified by comparing it to something known. For example "the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants." Matthew 18:23.
I don't think so but it is possible that these two passages might be some other literary device but the are not parables.

 

[martymonster]

Nothing at all to do with the lake of fire and anyone coming out of it into eternal life. The gift of eternal life is giving to the saved---name one verse that says eternal life will be given to the lost.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Mar_10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti_6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1Jn_1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I see you put a lot of emphasis on the word "Die" there.
Death has never meant being tortured for all of eternity. Here's what death actually means.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now, either God is going to make sinners Carnally minded, or he is going kill their sin nature. My assumption is that it wouldn't be the former. Absolutely nowhere, does the bible say that death is being eternally tormented....NOWHERE!
Something is not true, depending on how many times you repeat it.

 

[mmksparbud]

I see you put a lot of emphasis on the word "Die" there.
Death has never meant being tortured for all of eternity. Here's what death actually means.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now, either God is going to make sinners Carnally minded, or he is going kill their sin nature. My assumption is that it wouldn't be the former. Absolutely nowhere, does the bible say that death is being eternally tormented....NOWHERE!
Something is not true, depending on how many times you repeat it.

I know what death means---cessation of life. I never said death means eternally tormented---don't believe in that. God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree, they would die. He never said that they would burn in hell forever. God does not lie nor tell 1/2 truth. And when He said the wages of sin is death, that is exactly what He meant and that is why He died for us. He paid the price for all, now it just needs to be accepted. He does not force anyone to serve Him! You either choose Him and have His blood cover your sins, or His fire will destroy you for you will have no protection from it.

 

[Saint Steven]

I see you put a lot of emphasis on the word "Die" there.
Death has never meant being tortured for all of eternity. Here's what death actually means.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now, either God is going to make sinners Carnally minded, or he is going kill their sin nature. My assumption is that it wouldn't be the former. Absolutely nowhere, does the bible say that death is being eternally tormented....NOWHERE!
Something is not true, depending on how many times you repeat it.

You nailed it Marty!

We were born dead.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

 

[Charlie24]

You mean disprove, right?
Here's what you wrote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Charlie24 said: ↑
This can only happen on the false presumption that man will get a second chance after death to repent, which is not biblical.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, what's your support?
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, - Hebrews 9:27
Got anything else?

Does that say ANYTHING about no second chance for repentance? (nope)
What is the "judgment" that we will all face? The cleansing with the fire of God.
Our part in that process is confession and repentance. Any questions?

See what I mean about your theology?

To make such a bold claim as the UR, that has been called heresy in the past, one must come forth with overwhelming evidence. Or at least a series of scripture that could create reasonable evidence.

You can't do that!!! Do you understand why we are so set against your claims?

 

[martymonster]

I know what death means---cessation of life. I never said death means eternally tormented---don't believe in that. God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree, they would die. He never said that they would burn in hell forever. God does not lie nor tell 1/2 truth. And when He said the wages of sin is death, that is exactly what He meant and that is why He died for us. He paid the price for all, now it just needs to be accepted. He does not force anyone to serve Him! You either choose Him and have His blood cover your sins, or His fire will destroy you for you will have no protection from it.

Well, if you think physical death is death, then you better take a look at this.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

These things are written a certain way, for good reason.

Physical death = sleep.
Spiritual death = being carnally minded.
Spiritually alive = dead to sin.

You simply don't get to take things at face value in scripture, it's a very big no no.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Why would someone have to look for something that is in plain sight?

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Why would Christ need to ask them if they understood, if his words were to be taken at face value?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How could a man not understand something, if it was to be taken at face value? Didn't Christ teach in parables to make things even easier to understand?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Just because you can read something written in scripture, doesn't mean you know what it means.

 

[martymonster]

You nailed it Marty!

We were born dead.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

It's almost as if "Gospel" means "Good news" or something? It is good news!

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[martymonster]

See what I mean about your theology?

To make such a bold claim as the UR, that has been called heresy in the past, one must come forth with overwhelming evidence. Or at least a series of scripture that could create reasonable evidence.

You can't do that!!! Do you understand why we are so set against your claims?

So what if it has been called "heresy" in the past. They called Christ a blasphemer. Does men calling something bad, make it so? You seem to have this "safety in numbers" mentality, where if the majority of people believe something, it must be true. Well, I've got some bad news for you!

 

[mmksparbud]

Well, if you think physical death is death, then you better take a look at this.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

These things are written a certain way, for good reason.

Physical death = sleep.
Spiritual death = being carnally minded.
Spiritually alive = dead to sin.

You simply don't get to take things at face value in scripture, it's a very big no no.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Why would someone have to look for something that is in plain sight?

Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Why would Christ need to ask them if they understood, if his words were to be taken at face value?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How could a man not understand something, if it was to be taken at face value? Didn't Christ teach in parables to make things even easier to understand?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Just because you can read something written in scripture, doesn't mean you know what it means.

Those who die in Christ are only sleeping. They will be resurrected unto eternal life. Those who die without Christ will be resurrected unto judgment and eternal death never to be resurrected again. That is the 2nd death.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[martymonster]

Those who die in Christ are only sleeping. They will be resurrected unto eternal life. Those who die without Christ will be resurrected unto judgment and eternal death never to be resurrected again. That is the 2nd death.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Except for one thing.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

[Saint Steven]

See what I mean about your theology?

To make such a bold claim as the UR, that has been called heresy in the past, one must come forth with overwhelming evidence. Or at least a series of scripture that could create reasonable evidence.

You can't do that!!! Do you understand why we are so set against your claims?

We're in pretty good company.
The established religious system was at odds with Jesus and the Apostles too.
The status quo does NOT determine what is right and wrong.

I will not slander God by aligning myself with your false accusations against him.
We need to have faith in God, not in the religious system.

God is love. A forever burning hell is NOT love. Any questions?

 

[fwGod]

From a CWR (Christianity Without Religion) article by Brad Jersak titled:
What if you’re wrong about hell?
(Source link: Q&R with Brad Jersak: What if you're wrong about hell?)
Note this is more to read at the link than what I have posted in the OP here.

Comments and discussion welcome.

Q&R with Brad Jersak: What if you’re wrong about hell?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Question:
Recently, in response to my rejection of the hell of eternal torment, one of my readers offered a fairly common objection: “I hope you’re right about that. BUT if you’re wrong about hell, then a lot of people will go there … and it will be your fault. Wouldn’t it be better to play it safe just to be sure?”

The following response was adapted from a much longer essay from Clarion Journal, titled, “Let’s Talk about Hell BETTER or “If You’re Wrong, a Lot of People Will Go to Hell & It’s Your Fault” by Brad Jersak.

Response: The Wager
This high stakes objection is worthy of a careful response.

1. “Wrong about hell” in what way? The implication seems to imply that I don’t believe there’s a hell or that the hell I believe in is not something to worry about. Not so! Of course I believe in hell. I’ve been there. I’ve seen it with my eyes, in my spirit and in my Bible. And now I preach the good news, knowing that Christ conquered hades (Rev. 1:18) to rescue us and he came back victorious with a host of captives (Mark 3:27, Eph. 4:8). I see no reason to believe that my conviction that hell is horrendous but not eternal would endanger a single soul of going there.
2. Are we saved by belief in Christ or by belief in hell? I assume that objectors believe that the material cause of our salvation is Jesus Christ and the efficient cause is faith in his name. Nowhere do the Scriptures demand belief in a particular doctrine of hell as a requirement for saving faith. No doctrine of hell entered New Testament evangelism or our confession of faith at baptism. One can check every evangelistic sermon in Acts to verify this.
3. The ‘Safe’ Wager: The charge seems to be rooted in a fear-based wager that ultimately bites itself in the behind. The wager goes like this: IF eternal conscious torment is even a possibility, then we’d better warn people about it or they will end up there. Makes sense, right? Well… that might have worked in Jonathan Edwards time. I say might because can we be so sure that those who repent out of fear of being roasted alive forever actually responded in willing faith to Jesus Christ? Did they love him because they’d God’s love in the revelation of the Cross? Or did Edwards merely convince them to convert with the eternal conscious gun to their heads? Is that saving faith?

But for the sake of our wager, let’s say it was. Let’s say that gospel did work. And let’s say Edwards was completely right: that hell is eternal conscious torment and salvation is Jesus’ way out of the white-hot wrath of God. Let’s say eternal conscious torment is the clear and present danger. If so, then we need to determine which gospel will BEST save people from that fate.

Here’s the troubling news: preaching eternal hellfire no longer scares people into Jesus arms. Statistically, it creates atheists by the millions. If you’re truly worried about people going to hell, then you had better NOT mention it, because such preaching is among the top stated reasons why people now reject Christ.

This is a fact in the 21st century: people today reject the good news of Jesus Christ when we import hellfire preaching into our gospel. They do this because:

• It sounds more like medieval mythology than gospel truth. It doesn’t resonate at all.
• It looks more like a B-grade horror movie than something anchored to reality.
• It sabotages the evangelist’s credibility because it doesn’t sound like the foolishness of the gospel (Christ and him crucified). It sounds more like the silliness of radical fundamentalism.
• It enables the listener to defer judgment to an imagined “later” rather than facing all the ways they are already perishing and in bondage to the kingdom of hell today.

So, if you are truly afraid that people will go to hell, DO NOT tell them about it. But my suspicion is that the greater fear is that we ourselves might go to hell if we don’t get it right, even if we cause others to reject Christ through our hellacious threats.

The gospel to tell is for the sinner to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. By believing that what He did was for sinners to not go to hell. So tell them about hell as what they will miss, not tell them hell is where they will go if they don't accept Jesus.

Which is more important for them to know?.. Redemption through Jesus.. or certain hell for the sinner? If hell seems to be so important, then perhaps the redemption through Jesus is not thought to be so convincing? jmho.