What if old people complain about worship being "too loud"?

[Outofthebox42]

I never said it was supposed to be over 110. Actually I think it's like 90 decibels should be the limit. I think to have a comfortable service bands should keep it under the 90 db mark.

True, we are supposed to esteem others above ourselves. But the truth is, and I know this from personal experience as a worship leader and performer, is that you can't please everyone. Seriously. The elder people in the church will always say it's too loud, and the young people will always say it's not loud enough. You kinda have to find a happy medium, a comfortable level where you know you won't be harming anyone's hearing.

God bless!

Christie

 

[phoenixgw]

I am aware of a number of churches that have literally split because of the music issue--and it's not just the volume either.

The church I attend has 2 services: the early morning service plays traditional hymns with the organ music. Most of the songs contain at least one verse of Scripture (like the one in my posts). It is mostly attended by seniors, as you might guess.

The 11:00 service begins after most of the morning congregation has left. It is mostly teens, 20-35 year olds, young families and divorcees. They do that "Praise and Worship" that originated from the Vineyard. A loud band replaces the organ music and it induces in most vocal and demonstrative behavior.

It's not for me to say who is responding to God's attributes (praise) and glory (worship) and who is responding to the mood of the music, which may or may not contain lyrics that fall into praise and worship categories. I find the clamor to be a distraction from God and when I've attended these services, I always close my eyes and go into my own prayer zone.

There have been critics who have questioned the Christianity of "Praise and Worship" type music and the sermonettes that often accompany them. This is one of them:

http://www.piney.com/MuFemin.html

 

[thrufaithalone]

Outofthebox42, some clarification is needed - we were talking about what noise levels cause damage, not what levels the music should be at.

I would like to reiterate my position again is not for or against any particular style of music; it's the loudness of any kind that is particularly offensive - and painful - whether it's a traditional hymn or Michael W. Smith.

phoenixgw, I believe you have a very valid point, it has become nothing more than idolatry in many churches. In addition, they have confused the emotional dimension with the spiritual - God is not interested in an emotional exhibition - He is interested in the attitude of ones' heart.

Dan Lucarini has written an excellent book, "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement; Confessions of a Former Worship Leader" - I highly reccommend it.

 

[LeadWorship]

Outofthebox42, some clarification is needed - we were talking about what noise levels cause damage, not what levels the music should be at.

Actually, she addressed the OP's question, so she kinda is on topic. If that topic has changed, we can start another thread .

it has become nothing more than idolatry in many churches. In addition, they have confused the emotional dimension with the spiritual - God is not interested in an emotional exhibition - He is interested in the attitude of ones' heart.

I agree. However it's not just in P&W that this is true. It's in every aspect of our lives and every aspect of the church. It's not really fair to point the finger at P&W and say, "All this emotional physical movement is not of God!! They are feeding their emotions, not feeding off of God's Spirit!" Who are we to say? Let's let Christ be the judge. I've seen Preachers get all worked up over things, even "cry" at points. It's genuine at times, others it "showmanship" imo. Some type of attempt to pull us in, instead of letting the message pull us in (which isn't needed if it's from God, imo).

Anyway, there's other examples, but alas, back to the OP.

As I said earlier, move the people who complain away from the speakers, and pile the kids up there, or fill the church up. More people means more pillows which means more sound buffers.

 

[Tsadde]

Love, love love! The Christian walk is all about love. Though I speak (or may I say sing?) with the tongue of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a (very loud) sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 1Cor. 13

Volume is not merely a matter of taste. For many people, not just the elderly, very loud music is physically painful and very distracting in worship. It hinders worship for many people. Would you offer in your worship service a dance in a confined space that you knew would lead to stomping on someone's foot or elbowing them in the gut or giving an old lady a smack upside the head? This is how much it hurts some people. It is PAINful.

For some people it is actually deadly. My own mother can no longer attend the church she and my father have worshipped and served in for most of their lives. Three times my mother has fainted when the music suddenly started loudly. The third time the doctor in the emergency room threatened to charge my father with elder abuse if he took her to that church again! The shock of such volume actually caused her heart to fail for a moment. He said he has seen what he called "church music syndrome" many times. It breaks my Dad's heart that he can no longer participate on Sunday mornings, and worse, that many enthusiastic worshippers don't even notice that they are not there -and don't care.

The church I go to has become a refugee camp for people who are hurt by that which is supposed to help them worship. There must be 50 people there who used to be pillars in their old congregations. They feel they have been forced out. They feel unloved. They are not all old.

It is not a matter of old style vs. modern music. We use contemporary music with contemporary instruments including amplified instruments, but at a level where people can hear and continue to keep their hearing. If people are complaining that they can't hear amplified instruments I'm afraid the damage to their hearing has already been done. Playing louder will only make it worse. We have a responsibility to take care of the bodies the Lord gave us.

Look around you. How many elderly have left your church? Age-ism is as great a sin as rascism. When you tell people by your actions that they are unimportant you lose the wisdom of experience, you lose the great prayer warriors who have time to intercede for your church family, you lose an opportunity to show you care. We need to honour our spiritual mothers and fathers.

A church that by its unspoken rules excludes elderly people, or people with sensitive hearing, or ethnically diverse people, or physically or mentally challenged people does not worship the Lord with their whole hearts because love, kindness, gentleness and compassion have been left out.

Worship is a great deal more than music.

Why do we feel that God is being worshipped only by the one style of music that entertains us? This goes for old hymns only people too. That's not worship. That's narcissism; that's worshipping ourselves. If you cannot worship the Lord without extreme volume, you are the one who is handicapped. As individuals we offer the Lord the best of our personal expression and if you get into giving glory to God by really wailing, go for it, but as a body we all worship together.

There is nothing wrong with my hearing and I would like to keep it that way thank you very much. I am a career musician myself and it is far too important to me to risk not being able to hear it when I am older. I teach music skills to worship leaders. I love a lot of the well-written new songs coming out, but even I have gotten up and walked out of some churches or meetings because the volume is painful.

OK. I came to this forum looking for suggestions for new worship music on cd or for ipod or whatever because I can play it at home at a comfortable level, then I saw this thread and got all distracted. I hope you understand I am not bashing comtemporary worship music. I'm just begging people to be more sensitive to others and include love in our worship services.

Love. Jesus said you will know his followers by their
love.

OK. rant over. You may resume your regular day.

 

[Outofthebox42]

I was under the impression this thread was about what to do when someone complains about the noise level in church. The whole decibel thing [which I learned recently that we keep it under 90 db, which is not near damage level at all] was because you cannot make everyone happy. I do think hearing is very important. A moderate noise level should suit everyone. It should not be so loud that you have to yell to talk to the person next to you, or loud enough to cause hearing damage.

And I think it was kind of inappropriate to the OP for bringing up the Christianity of PW music. That had nothing to do with the opening thread.

 

[LeadWorship]

I was under the impression this thread was about what to do when someone complains about the noise level in church. The whole decibel thing [which I learned recently that we keep it under 90 db, which is not near damage level at all] was because you cannot make everyone happy. I do think hearing is very important. A moderate noise level should suit everyone. It should not be so loud that you have to yell to talk to the person next to you, or loud enough to cause hearing damage.

And I think it was kind of inappropriate to the OP for bringing up the Christianity of PW music. That had nothing to do with the opening thread.

This is all true. Good post!

 

[SGM4HIM]

I was under the impression this thread was about what to do when someone complains about the noise level in church. The whole decibel thing [which I learned recently that we keep it under 90 db, which is not near damage level at all] was because you cannot make everyone happy. I do think hearing is very important. A moderate noise level should suit everyone. It should not be so loud that you have to yell to talk to the person next to you, or loud enough to cause hearing damage.

And I think it was kind of inappropriate to the OP for bringing up the Christianity of PW music. That had nothing to do with the opening thread.

Good post! Good comments both paragraphs.


other thoughts:
Another factor is not necessarily loudness, but Distortion Level. Quality of amps, speakers, reverb levels, and speaker placement can all contribute to an uncomfortable sound even though the overall level is not damaging. Most sound control areas are in the back of the church and sound techs are not hearing what the person on the 3 row is hearing.

 

[jwp]

I'm a music nut, played acoustic and electric guitars for 30 years or more. Been in bands, own a bunch of pa equipment, been to tons of concerts, am suffering from tinninitis.

Here's what I know
1) You can have 90db sound levels and can't understand a word
2) You can have 45db sound levels and can hear everything perfect.

But you can have it the other way around.

Step 1) Get rid of you mids with your vocals. In fact mids should only be used judiciously. They are the cheif reason many and I do mean many a mix has been ruined. Do it on the strip, you'll have to experiment because every board is different, but I typically turn the mids to -3db or even -6db. I punch up the bass and move the treble to just below the point where it hurts peoples ears. (Remember your vocal channels will be differnt than the others)
Step 2) Compress your vocals in a 2:1 ratio. It keeps the sound levels constant for the words. It's a professional thing to do.
Step 3) Right before your output to the amps, run a BBE sonic maximizer http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/BBE-362-Sonic-Maximizer?sku=180910
Step 4) Run your board's preamps such that they have a minimum of 60% gain (anything less filters out sound before it ever gets amplified) Trim the signals with the strip slider not the preamp. If your vocals are using phantom power or even another preamp you want to make sure you "open" up as much of the pre amplified signal as possible without distorting it. Anything less acts as a filter and you can never get back what isn't there.
Step 5) Use good mics for Pete's sake, nothing less than a SM58 or SM57.
Step 6) Contol all sound except the stage pressence (Which you need to police because you're dealing with musicians with amplifiers) at the board. They can have stage presence but don't let it muddy the overall sound.
Step 7) Bass guitar should be rich and low but not overpowering or mid range sounding.
Step 8) The drums are always always always a potential bomb waiting to explode. Some drummers know how to play with others, other drummers listened to too many drum solos and are literal deaf. Cymbal crashes are the most ear piercing thing (other than feedback) on a stage. If the drummer cannot or willnot drum quietly put him in a glass enclosure.
Step 9) All other rhythm instruments should be that rhythm. Don't put 5 acoustic guitars at the same volume as the vocals. Besides any more than one rhythm player creates potential problems because they don't strum in sequence. This adds tons of mids to the mix. Horn sections, clarinets and saxes, flutes etc. usually don't have this problem because they're all reading from a music sheet following their script which is to only play one note of a chord as oppossed to the entire chord like a piano or guitar player does.

Finally walk around once you dial the mix in. There will be hot spots (too loud) and dead spots (Can't hear the word) try as hard as you can to work those out by either compression, eq (get a good parametric eq) or even speaker placement. I've never understood why churches have to get these huge 1960 style electro voice speakers and place them up in the ceiling pointing down at an angle to just the middle sections of the church. Ever heard of BOSE? and Surround sound, small speaker concepts?

Bottom line is today's music technology leaves no excuses for bad sound if it's truly bad. But there will be older people that have hearing loss and cannot take the sound pressure, to them bad sound may only mean loud or a music style they don't like. For them you must try to find a way to get them to a dead spot or even behind glass to protect their hearing. You will never win music style contests leading worship services.

have a good one!

 

[LeadWorship]

Step 1) Get rid of you mids with your vocals. In fact mids should only be used judiciously. They are the cheif reason many and I do mean many a mix has been ruined. Do it on the strip, you'll have to experiment because every board is different, but I typically turn the mids to -3db or even -6db. I punch up the bass and move the treble to just below the point where it hurts peoples ears. (Remember your vocal channels will be differnt than the others)
Step 2) Compress your vocals in a 2:1 ratio. It keeps the sound levels constant for the words. It's a professional thing to do.
Step 3) Right before your output to the amps, run a BBE sonic maximizer http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/BBE-362-Sonic-Maximizer?sku=180910
Step 4) Run your board's preamps such that they have a minimum of 60% gain (anything less filters out sound before it ever gets amplified) Trim the signals with the strip slider not the preamp. If your vocals are using phantom power or even another preamp you want to make sure you "open" up as much of the pre amplified signal as possible without distorting it. Anything less acts as a filter and you can never get back what isn't there.
Step 5) Use good mics for Pete's sake, nothing less than a SM58 or SM57.
Step 6) Contol all sound except the stage pressence (Which you need to police because you're dealing with musicians with amplifiers) at the board. They can have stage presence but don't let it muddy the overall sound.
Step 7) Bass guitar should be rich and low but not overpowering or mid range sounding.
Step 8) The drums are always always always a potential bomb waiting to explode. Some drummers know how to play with others, other drummers listened to too many drum solos and are literal deaf. Cymbal crashes are the most ear piercing thing (other than feedback) on a stage. If the drummer cannot or willnot drum quietly put him in a glass enclosure.
Step 9) All other rhythm instruments should be that rhythm. Don't put 5 acoustic guitars at the same volume as the vocals. Besides any more than one rhythm player creates potential problems because they don't strum in sequence. This adds tons of mids to the mix. Horn sections, clarinets and saxes, flutes etc. usually don't have this problem because they're all reading from a music sheet following their script which is to only play one note of a chord as oppossed to the entire chord like a piano or guitar player does.

Finally walk around once you dial the mix in. There will be hot spots (too loud) and dead spots (Can't hear the word) try as hard as you can to work those out by either compression, eq (get a good parametric eq) or even speaker placement. I've never understood why churches have to get these huge 1960 style electro voice speakers and place them up in the ceiling pointing down at an angle to just the middle sections of the church. Ever heard of BOSE? and Surround sound, small speaker concepts?

Great advice. You definitely know how to mix things. Acoustic Engineering is a much needed skill, and each church must be set up differently. We hired a local company to overhaul our system, and they did, from the board to the speakers. It sounds awesome, and the best thing is the sound. It's the no matter where you are in the room. It amazes me what can be done, when properly done. Glad to see you in here JWP!

 

[jwp]

Great advice. You definitely know how to mix things. Acoustic Engineering is a much needed skill, and each church must be set up differently. We hired a local company to overhaul our system, and they did, from the board to the speakers. It sounds awesome, and the best thing is the sound. It's the no matter where you are in the room. It amazes me what can be done, when properly done. Glad to see you in here JWP!

Thanks for the compliment, I appreciate your recognition of experience.

Couple of other points...

We spoke about 2:1 compression on the vocals... You can actually put each vocal into a separate compressor, plus... now this is the tricky part you can compress the entire mix as well. This keeps sound levels constant which is how most professional sound mixes work. You hear them all the time on today's great recordings. Chrisitian music coming out of Nashville is second to none and set some major trends 15 years ago. There's nothing like clear crisp clean vocals over the top of everything. Stuff you can really hear.

Another trick on those pesky mids of course is a parametric eq. (yes it's older technology) but it still works wonders. I like to teach young sound guys to "put the smile in" Get a 31 band eq one for each channel and set it up so the mids are running at zero db. Boost the bottom end and top end in a arching smile like pattern.

But perhaps the most impressive device to ever hit live sound were these wonderful BBE units mentioned earlier. According to their literature they line up the sound waves. It was a well know problem in the 70's that HUGE sound systems didn't necessarily mean good sound. And by HUGE I do mean physically HUGE. The problem with a HUGE sound system is that you have at least three different cross over frequencies. In those days this HUGE monster would have separate bass, mid and treble cabs with passive crossover electronics in them. But they were all eminating from the same physical location at the same exact moment in time. What does that mean? It means that the sound signals themselves from all of these differing sources were interferring with themselves. Of course speaker technology is really really good now and a lot of that problem has dissappeared, but it's still there, until you put a BBE in the chain. They only operated on BASS and TREBLE ranges and some how "line-up" the phasing of the sound waves. What it does for you is it allows you to produce the clearest trebel and most thumping bass (without irritation) of anything on the market. You can literally make your live mix sound studio quality. I know this because I've done it.

Now many of you are pros and will say I don't know jack. Well you're right because I was never endowed with a huge bank account I never was able to step up into the real professional gear. But here's what I know about that stuff. If you want to buy a good verb unit for vocals (Believe me you do) Buy LEXICON. You will never regret it. If you want to buy automated EQ gear you can look into the DBX driverack products. They actually have built-in room analysis gear that allow you to tune a PA system to any environment at any time. Most really professional sound set ups include TUBE Pre-Amps for Micing vocals. (Not a necessity but nice).

Speakers OMGosh did we forget to talk about those? For small churches 4000 sq. ft and under you should look into powered speakers (I am Yamaha bigot). But JBL and other big named powered speaker manufactures are really really making great products. We're talking about build in active EQ and THD in the .00000000001 range. 350 watts per speaker in a biamp or triamp configuration. You can't beat it there is nothing better than having that type of a set up. And you can buy more than one and place the speakers around the room at lower volumes. You may get into the need for delay units. but you just don't need big speaker systems anymore.

Monitors are always important to the musicians and are a good way to control their overall volumn. If you turn up the monitors good and loud all the deaf musicians are happy. If you have a bunch of them you won't get this I have to turn up to hear over this or that effect...

Anyway good luck out there to all you under appreaciated oft complained to lovers of music, god, family and man. I have to go take some medicine for my tininitus...

 

[jwp]

One other trick is the technique of 'ducking'
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ducking+compressor

Lower the music automatically while pastor talks into mic.

 

[joyousNOISErecords]

I believe that feedback is very important and is important in the ministry. In my Business Management class there was a saying. It goes something like: the person who is most open to feedback is the person who least needs it, while the person who rejects feedback is the person who needs it the most. It reminds me of how Proverbs repetitively says that the wise accepts correction and yada yada.

I'm not saying that you must do everything that everyone says to you, but just make sure you do not act or say something that creates an atmosphere that makes it uncomfortable for the people to share how they feel.

Just my advice from a business point of view. (not saying to run the church like a business, but the principle of it is a good one.)

 

[Surf4Christ]

I have the same problem at my church. I play bass and it seems that only the elders who have been with the church complain. Everyone else has given me compliments and seems to be thoroughly enjoying the worship.

 

[tpk]

Well in some cases, it's difficult to please everyone. In fact, not everyone will be happy at the same time. My advice: get in-ears (we just got them at our church and they helped a lot). I know they're expensive and such, but once your church raises enough money, go for it. Second, don't run the bass through the system, but through an amp and mic it to the sound board. Then, only have the mic running through the in-ears for those who need it and maybe a tiny bit in the house to balance sound in the back if it's a good-sized sanctuary.

Other than that, there's not much I can say. If it weren't one of the elders (i'm assuming that by elder you mean deacon or something similar, not just an old person that attends your church), it might be easier just to kindly advise them to move toward the back.

In the end, realize that your number one reason for being up there is to lead others in worship. That's your number one purpose. The band (or if you prefer, praise team; some people get too caught up in "Band" vs "praise team" imo) should be able to then worship as well once they've led the others to the throne room. If someone is complaining about volume, chances are, they haven't been able to truly worship, and you haven't been fulfilling your purpose. Anyway, that's getting off onto another subject that needs a whole book to explain and discuss various points, so I'll just leave it at that.
God bless and keep rocking for Jesus, man!

 

[DakotaCowgirl]

We do the best we can with the sound board. We aren't going to please everyone and if they (general) get pushy, we tell them to do it themselves if they can do it better. Normally, that keeps it quiet. Not nice all the time, but gets the point across.

 

[iamjcs]

What do you do when some old lady comes up and says "Worship service was much too loud this morning the bass felt like it was pounding me in the chest!" as she pounds her bony little fist against your chest ? and then at the same time there are others saying hey man i couldn't hear you this morning (i'm the bass player) should I just ignore them all, or just politely direct the elderly woman to sit closer to the back? I don't know what do you peoples think?

Maybe make a statement over the microphone something like:
"I've heard that some people are having trouble hearing while others are feeling blown away. Please leave the front 2 rows available for those who have trouble hearing and the back row available for those who can hear a pen drop a yard away."

(My dad's hearing was messed up in an airplane & mine's sharp enough to hear a pin drop on carpet. Thus I understand where both are coming from.)

If they take this wrong, that's their problem.

 

[tpk]

Maybe make a statement over the microphone something like:
"I've heard that some people are having trouble hearing while others are feeling blown away. Please leave the front 2 rows available for those who have trouble hearing and the back row available for those who can hear a pen drop a yard away."

(My dad's hearing was messed up in an airplane & mine's sharp enough to hear a pin drop on carpet. Thus I understand where both are coming from.)

If they take this wrong, that's their problem.

Good point, but really that should be sort of common sense; if it's too loud it would make sense to automatically move to the back and vice versa.

 

[jessiemusical]

like i went to youth convention in Bakersfield, CA and the preacher said... that is the music is too loud for the elderly, to pick up an offering and buy earplugs because as you know, worship is not about how loud this instrument was, but to touch the people, to make the service exciting by bringing the Holy Spirit! the church needs to be loud...the club music is very loud, so how much MORE loud music in churches need to get? WE neEED to TELL the WORLD about JESUS! it's all about REVOLUTION in your city, church, etc

 

[Audiomatic]

Even Elders (church leaders) who would prefer to only sing hymns to a piano accompaniment realize that contemporary music styles help to promote church attendance. The decision to include contemporary music must be made by the Elders because it may alienate some long-term attendees, and it may involve costs associated with equipment upgrades and acoustical treatment. Once this decision is made, it's important for the Elders to publicly express appreciation for the efforts of the Worship Team and remind attendees that the church is competing with other formats on Sundays, such as cable TV and the internet. This may help stem an exodus of long-term attendees. It's also essential for members of the Worship Team, as representatives of the church leadership, to show respect to all attendees and accept any criticism (with grace) as potentially constructive, don't take it personally, and discuss it with other members and sound technicians. Please count yourself lucky if you hear criticisms of the "performance." How else would you know what some in the congregation find objectionable?

My main reason for posting this is to expand on some good advice provided previously and clear up some misconceptions. This discussion began with Shaner's bass being too loud, so I'll start there. It's important for sound techs to understand the nature of sound. High frequencies (high pitches) don't propagate through air as easily as low frequencies (bass). That's why nearby lightning makes a CRACK!, and faraway lightning produces a low rumble, and the very loud music from the car driving by sounds like Boom! Boom! Also, high pitches from a loudspeaker are more focused, whereas low pitches wrap around the speaker and can easily be heard from behind the speaker. Almost all speakers are designed to be placed in a free field, away from any reflective surfaces. A bass amp placed back against a reflective wall may therefore sound louder than if moved closer to the front of the platform. A main loudspeaker placed where two walls meet the ceiling would result in a much higher apparent bass response than if moved closer to the congregation. If the back wall is reflective, suggesting that a complainant move to the back of the room may be counterproductive.

JWP suggested that a sound pressure level (SPL) meter be used to evaluate loudness throughout the room. This is essential; it's the sound tech's responsibility to document that sound loudness throughout the room would be protective of hearing during the loudest songs, and may help identify seating areas better suited to any who may complain of loudness. Don't necessarily aim the SPL meter at the speakers; in an active room, sound will be coming from all directions. Aim the SPL meter straight up as you wander around the room. For loud songs in an empty room, sound pressure levels between 95 and 98 dBs should be fine for anybody; much of that will be absorbed as the room fills up. Try to evaluate the room with only the bass player playing.

JWP's suggestion that a compressor be used is also an excellent one. A compressor pulls down the sound level 3 to 6 dBs when the level makes an excursion above a set threshold. This way you can turn up the entire program so that quiet parts can be clearly heard without risk of louder parts being too loud. In using a compressor, deciding an appropriate threshold level and amount of attenuation can be daunting. Some compressors have presets that are optimized for voice, piano, bass, etc. Start out by using the presets; you may find one that works well in your circumstances. Compressors are used in all comercial music produced today. This is why you can listen to music while driving without having to turn up quiet songs (or quiet parts of songs) and turn down loud songs (or loud parts). Voices and musical instruments sound different when played quietly versus loudly. A "loud" song turned down doesn't sound like a quiet song, it sounds like a loud song turned down. By using a compressor, a jammin' song can have a similar sound level as a worshipful song. This is what people have become accustomed to out in the world (our competition).

Ten years ago, our worship service consisted of a piano player during hymns, then the piano player would step down and we would sing a few choruses to unplugged acoustic guitars; we had between 30 and 50 attendees. In working through the Elders, we've moved to a blended service leaning toward contemporary, with piano, keyboard, bass, rhythm and lead guitars, drums, violin and flute, and our attendance regularly exceeds 250. Be patient, go through proper channels, and graciously accept any criticism as an opportunity to correct any inadequacies in your particular worship environment. And remember that some of us old people actually love that chest-thumping bass!

Wow! I hadn't intended for this to be a treatise; just some considerations that some people might find helpful. I'm new here, so a belated Happy Easter To All!