What if Mary appeared to you? [MOVED TO MARIOLOGY]

[PilgrimToChrist]

Don't mean to derail the thread, but what is the position on seeking / wanting a personal appearance? (Whether from Mary, Jesus, or any other Saint?)

Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said: Peace be to you. Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing.

Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.

And there came to him the Pharisees and Sadducees tempting: and they asked him to shew them a sign from heaven.

But he answered and said to them: When it is evening, you say, It will be fair weather, for the sky is red. And in the morning: To day there will be a storm, for the sky is red and lowering. You know then how to discern the face of the sky: and can you not know the signs of the times?

A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. And he left them, and went away.

To seek after miracles is a sign of a lack of faith. Certainly, we may pray for miracles to achieve some good for someone -- e.g. praying for someone's health. But miracles only happen in order to achieve some good. We should pray for the good end, not the way in which it should happen. We can pray that God would use us to help save souls. But whether God does this with a vision or other direct, private revelation is up to Him. We should pray "ecce ancilla Domini, fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum" ("behold the handmaid of the Lord, may it be unto me according to thy word"), "adveniat regnum tuum, fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra" ("thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven") and "non mea voluntas sed tua fiat" ("not my will but thine be done"). The word which saved the world is fiat, we must pray for God's will to be done. This is not simply a passive resignation but an active conforming of ourselves to the will of God.

There are a couple books on the topic that I have: The Holy Will of God and Self-Abandonment to Divine Providence.

If we recall the experience of St. John of the Cross, we would remember that God gives spiritual consolations to us as means of enticing us to continue to worship Him -- like spiritual "cookies" we give to the dog when he does a trick. The dog may love us because we feed him but God desires us to love Him and not the consolations. By distancing Himself -- reducing the number of "cookies" we are given -- we are able to grow stronger in faith, from the milk to the real meat, as St. Paul says.

If we seek after a sign, such as an apparition for the purpose of confirming our own faith, we are far more likely to be deceived by our own imagination or an illusion of the devil. I don't think that any of well-known people who have received confirmed apparitions of Jesus or Mary have sought them out. Some were religious or priests but others were simple people like the shepherd children of Fatima who before the visions were not pious children at all but then became very serious, especially after being shown hell. God uses who He choose, and always to achieve some greater purpose.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Private revelation? Test it against Scripture and the beliefs of the Church. Not dismiss it as demonic so I can feel good about my ill-conceived misconceptions about Catholicism! The Church rarely confirms private revelation for a good reason.



It's the Catholic Church. Theology is a science. See Medugorje. That's a modern "vision" for you right there, and it's under investigation. The consensus is slowly moving towards the negative position.



So what about other visions in history, and throughout the Bible? Were those of Satan too? I doubt you'll say yes. The only reason you say yes here is because it allows to you object to something that Catholicism teaches.



Also good to know you think people that believe in the veracity of some Marian apparitions are not of sound mind. It makes your position even clearer.

## To be consistent, those who reject visions & apparitions on principle should reject the apparition of an angel to a young girl in Nazareth about 2,000 years ago

 

[Hairy Tic]

Don't mean to derail the thread, but what is the position on seeking / wanting a personal appearance? (Whether from Mary, Jesus, or any other Saint?)

## The Catholic position ? Those who seek such extraordinary favours are asking for trouble - they are likely to be deceived by a false apparition instead.

The one exception I know of is the apparition of the BVM to St.Catherine Labouré, in 1830. She prayed for the BVM to appear to her. Why it's an exception, IDK - I'd have to look it up again A lot depends on the character & motives of the person seeking such things - mere curiosity is a very bad motive. It's frivolous. And apparitions are not frivolous, but are serious stuff Curiosity is traditionally reckoned a vice, in Catholic moral theology.

So apparitions - like other such phenomena - should not be sought. Apart from anything else:

• 1. They are not necessary for salvation or for holiness of life
• 2. They are exceptional graces, not part of the ordinary dealing of God w/ His children
• 3. Ordinarily, the grace we need can be obtained w/o the more "spectacular" stuff, such as visions etc.
  
• 4.God seems to "prefer" to work through ordinary things, & not (usually) through extra-ordinary ones
  
• 5. Apparitions etc. are granted for a practical purpose. So those who do not need them, to whom they might even be dangerous & bad, won't receive them.

BTW, apparitions are of no importance when people are recognised as Saints. Many Saints have seen such things, but many, probably the vast majority, have not. Post 281 above says pretty well everything else that needs saying.

That's a very quick and superficial answer - hope it helps

 

[Hairy Tic]

You didn't answer my questions, so I don't see why I need to yet answer yours.

Your whole objection (well, most of it anyway) is based on the idea that Satan can appear as an angel of light. How do you validate the apparitions and visions in the Bible, besides "it's in the Bible?" You have a case of circular logic if that's how you're justifying the validity of those apparitions and visions.

The correct answer is that you validate these apparitions against your faith, and the context of the Bible. You have faith that the Bible is true, as well a bit of extra-biblical historical evidence to back up that belief. To that same end, you have faith that these apparitions are true. They do not contradict doctrine and belief found elsewhere in Scripture.

You need much more solid position than the vague possibility that it might possibly perhaps be Satan in order have a good objection to these apparitions. The Church recognizes that visions may be demonic, just like you. The only difference is that the Church is willing to actually test the vision against Scripture and Tradition in order to determine if it's demonic.

## The Church also recognises a third possibility: human origin. Including the possibilities of intentional & unintentional deception. Demonic deceit is not antecedently likely - angels, good or evil, don't appear everyday - but possible. The apparitions at Fatima were approved in 1930 - 13 years after their reputed occurrence. This does not suggest at the Church was eagerly rushing into a deception. It suggests caution, if anything - & quite right too.

 

[Hairy Tic]

So every Catholic that prays to a Saint is a medium or necromancer?

IS Jesus a medium or necromancer when he spoke with Moses and Elijah?

## Logically, He must be. He was, historically, just another man - there was nothing Divine about Him. Not unless one looked at Him from a later POV, when His identity was much clearer to the Church than it had been during His Life on earth to everyone except a few disciples. And even they did not really understand Who He was.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Ok..come on now, just a little joke about the superior...Jeesh!

Now...

Does God understand that when he did not want the DEAD contacted, that they were called DEAD, but still existing in another dimension?

Yet..he did not want the DEAD contacted. NO?

Superior minds want to know?

## You're mistaking the more real for the less real.

The Saints in Heaven are more alive than we who are in this life, & we are more alive than ghosts. The life of Paradise is more alive, not less, than this earthly life; & b/c the Saints are not in this earthly life, you are mistaking their life, which is so much better than ours, for the life that is very much less than ours. Deuteronomy spreaks of the dead, who are less alive than men on earth - it says nothing of the Saints in Heaven. They are there b/c Christ came to man after the OT was written, though before now. His Life on earth, His Works, & all that He did, accomplished, & said while among men as a man puts the OT into an entirely new context - He has changed the whole world by His coming among us; including death, which He has abolished.

We are not Jews, but Christians, so we cannot read the OT as though Christ had not come & begun to change all things by bringing His own Life into the world to renew it.

Necromancy, divination, spiritualism are utterly forbidden by the Church, often using the very passages some Christians use against the veneration of the Saints.

 

[MaidenHisImage]

## To be consistent, those who reject visions & apparitions on principle should reject the apparition of an angel to a young girl in Nazareth about 2,000 years ago

Good point.

If I saw her, as long as she's pointing me to Jesus, I'd take it as definitely Mary and feel very blessed by God, since the devil wants us to stay from from God. It's not impossible to spot satan...he draws people away from God.

Getting to know who Mary was and is has drawn me closer to Jesus.

God bless everyone,
from a recent convert to the Catholic faith.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Good point.

If I saw her, as long as she's pointing me to Jesus, I'd take it as definitely Mary and feel very blessed by God, since the devil wants us to stay from from God. It's not impossible to spot satan...he draws people away from God.

Getting to know who Mary was and is has drawn me closer to Jesus.

God bless everyone,
from a recent convert to the Catholic faith.

## I was reading through the thread, & I think two other Catholic OPs made the point before I did. So I can't take all the credit LOL.

 

[MaidenHisImage]

## I was reading through the thread, & I think two other Catholic OPs made the point before I did. So I can't take all the credit LOL.

Quite right.

...but it needs repeating.