I concur with that perfect reasoning. Spurgeon was a Calvinist, but Calvinists of his day accused him of being soft. Rightly so, evidently, and I count that a very good thing.I love the quote by Spurgeon, but if he believed that the unchosen couldn't be saved, that was all hot air. Because then a lost sinner couldn't help but be a lost sinner who is was foreordained for destruction. There is no reason to put your arms around his knees unless you think you think you are stronger than God.
I think your problem is in "offering salvation" instead of "preaching salvation". Offering assumes free will and human response as the means of salvation. But preaching simply announces salvation for all who believe what they hear about Jesus. It's more like saying whoever believes has eternal life. Any who don't believe do not have eternal life.What if they are both true and not exclusive? What if some are just supernaturally chosen. Like it or not, Scripture clearly seems to indicate that some are. But, what if everyone else is truly called--the opportunity is truly available for them to come to God through Jesus of their own free will?
Let's be honest: If you think that people are truly chosen and predestined, then whether you and I are obedient to preach the Gospel or not won't affect the chosen from being chosen and coming alive to God. If it does, you have just sacrificed some of that sovereignty that you think God is giving up because He allows free will. It would mean that because a chosen one isn't obedient, other chosen ones wouldn't come to God. That means that a human's actions would have prevented God's chosen ones from coming to Him.
So, why preach the Gospel if the chosen will be chosen regardless and the unchosen can't answer the call? It is only Good News to the chosen ones--who don't need to hear you preach it anyway because it is going to happen regardless OR is it called Good News, because anyone can answer the call who isn't chosen?
What if they are both true and not exclusive? What if some are just supernaturally chosen. Like it or not, Scripture clearly seems to indicate that some are. But, what if everyone else is truly called--the opportunity is truly available for them to come to God through Jesus of their own free will?
Let's be honest: If you think that people are truly chosen and predestined, then whether you and I are obedient to preach the Gospel or not won't affect the chosen from being chosen and coming alive to God. If it does, you have just sacrificed some of that sovereignty that you think God is giving up because He allows free will. It would mean that because a chosen one isn't obedient, other chosen ones wouldn't come to God. That means that a human's actions would have prevented God's chosen ones from coming to Him.
So, why preach the Gospel if the chosen will be chosen regardless and the unchosen can't answer the call? It is only Good News to the chosen ones--who don't need to hear you preach it anyway because it is going to happen regardless OR is it called Good News, because anyone can answer the call who isn't chosen?
What if they are both true and not exclusive? What if some are just supernaturally chosen. Like it or not, Scripture clearly seems to indicate that some are. But, what if everyone else is truly called--the opportunity is truly available for them to come to God through Jesus of their own free will?
Let's be honest: If you think that people are truly chosen and predestined, then whether you and I are obedient to preach the Gospel or not won't affect the chosen from being chosen and coming alive to God. If it does, you have just sacrificed some of that sovereignty that you think God is giving up because He allows free will. It would mean that because a chosen one isn't obedient, other chosen ones wouldn't come to God. That means that a human's actions would have prevented God's chosen ones from coming to Him.
So, why preach the Gospel if the chosen will be chosen regardless and the unchosen can't answer the call? It is only Good News to the chosen ones--who don't need to hear you preach it anyway because it is going to happen regardless OR is it called Good News, because anyone can answer the call who isn't chosen?
You said, "The means by which God chooses is the calling,..." I hope that means something to you different from how it sounds. I hope you are not saying that God chooses based on something that happens to us (the calling, or perhaps even our response to the calling) or anything that we do. God makes his choice(s) by means of his own council for his own purposes. We are not privy to exactly what he is building, even though we know a lot of words and thoughts about it.God chooses people prior to their faith, since it says we are chosen "before the foundation of the world." But this does not mean they are chosen whether they believe or not, as that would be a false conclusion. The means by which God chooses is the calling, and the means of the calling is hearing the gospel (Rom. 10). It is a supernatural event, as Jesus describes it in John 3, "born of the Spirit." Therefore, it is not a natural ("free-will") event. When Paul declares "in love He predestined us to adoption as sons" he doesn't say some are predestined but others aren't. It is all-inclusive. Paul's declaration that we were chosen before we existed is a statement about all believers, not some.
Those who insist that they came to God by their own free will simply do not understand the spiritual dimension of their conversion. If a person has the ability to make a righteous choice to come to Christ without God's supernatural action to cause us to make that choice, then the doctrine of Total Depravity is not true. If Total Depravity is true, then conversion requires divine imposition, otherwise we would not obey the gospel. This is what Rom. 3:10-18, Rom. 9:15-16 and 1 Cor. 2:10-16 is about. Paul is making a distinction between natural thought and spiritual thought, which are different dimensions, requiring a different set of "common sense" wisdom rules. Conversion requires a kind of faith that comes from spiritual wisdom, and that wisdom comes only from God. So then, the faith we have in Christ that justifies us is a gift from God (Rom. 3:24). We can only obey the gospel if we are gifted with that faith, since that faith is obedience (that is, the beginning of it - Rom. 1:5).
TD
We preach the Gospel because that is the command given by Jesus Christ of Nazareth and He said to preach it to all nations. So if that is what Christ said then what Calvin taught was in error. It is up to you to discern the true message of salvation without the lens of man made doctrine. Start by doing a study on "chosen" you will find they are the group who "have chosen" , people that chose God that are then, chosen by God. It is all through the OT.So, why preach the Gospel if the chosen will be chosen regardless and the unchosen can't answer the call? It is only Good News to the chosen ones--who don't need to hear you preach it anyway because it is going to happen regardless OR is it called Good News, because anyone can answer the call who isn't chosen?
We preach the Gospel because that is the command given by Jesus Christ of Nazareth and He said to preach it to all nations. So if that is what Christ said then what Calvin taught was in error. It is up to you to discern the true message of salvation without the lens of man made doctrine. Start by doing a study on "chosen" you will find they are the group who "have chosen" , people that chose God that are then, chosen by God. It is all through the OT.
Joshua 24:22
So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses!”
Blessings
What if they are both true and not exclusive? What if some are just supernaturally chosen. Like it or not, Scripture clearly seems to indicate that some are. But, what if everyone else is truly called--the opportunity is truly available for them to come to God through Jesus of their own free will?
Let's be honest: If you think that people are truly chosen and predestined, then whether you and I are obedient to preach the Gospel or not won't affect the chosen from being chosen and coming alive to God. If it does, you have just sacrificed some of that sovereignty that you think God is giving up because He allows free will. It would mean that because a chosen one isn't obedient, other chosen ones wouldn't come to God. That means that a human's actions would have prevented God's chosen ones from coming to Him.
So, why preach the Gospel if the chosen will be chosen regardless and the unchosen can't answer the call? It is only Good News to the chosen ones--who don't need to hear you preach it anyway because it is going to happen regardless OR is it called Good News, because anyone can answer the call who isn't chosen?
It is a strange thing that mere creatures can pretend to understand the work of the Almighty Creator. "...the unchosen couldn't be saved."? What kind of logic says that? I am Reformed, if anything besides Christian, solidly a monergist, but not only do I admit I could be wrong, but I scream to any listening that I do NOT understand but an infinitesimal bit of the ways of God.I understand what you believe, David. I certainly agree that some are chosen; but I don't agree that because some are chosen, others don't come through choice.
I love the quote by Spurgeon, but if he believed that the unchosen couldn't be saved, that was all hot air. Because then a lost sinner couldn't help but be a lost sinner who is was foreordained for destruction. There is no reason to put your arms around his knees unless you think you think you are stronger than God. But, if you believe people have a choice to come to Him, then it certainly makes sense to do everything you can to keep them from their seemingly chosen destiny in hopes that God will intervene on their behalf through you.
Brother I was not pointing to you but giving the general post modern messages we see and hear among us. Just wanted to clarify this.I don't think of God as overbearing at all. And, while I am excited about what God promises for the future, if I was simply following God for what I got out of it in the present, there is no worldly measure that I didn't lose out in. So, for anyone to claim that I am following God simply because of what I get here and now--at least in regards to worldly measures--would be complete ignorance on their part. I've done stuff that could have gotten me killed, because He told me to. That is how much I trust the Sovereign God who woke me up.
I also don't see God as a hitler-type. That isn't because of "western society" as much as it is because I don't see hitler as being love.
There is an obvious non-sequitur within this short quote.
God does not choose someone who chooses on their own to remain evil.
When God chooses someone,
is similar to when a potter decides to keep a clay vessel -
it is because it becomes what He makes of it and is fit for the intended purpose.
If someone chooses to resist the devil, the devil flees.
If someone chooses to resist God, God waits - He won't coerce their will or their choice, as that would be un-Godly to do.
If God chooses someone like Saul, who was at the time opposed to Jesus,
God knows what Saul will do later,
as God knows everything....
Paul willingly surrendered , gave up his previous life of sin,
and obeyed Jesus.
God knew Paul would obey, since God knows everything, for all time.
God perfectly knew Saul's heart/ Paul's heart - as ONLY the PURE IN HEART will see God. Saul's heart was not pure;
God gave Paul a new heart and a clean spirit (like King David asked for),
and knew Paul's heart and mind(renewed) willingly and joyously
delighted as a new creation to serve and worship God instead of sinnin.
Sage words. Paul shared the election before the foundations of the earth to be a comfort and assurance to fellow believers. Not a means for people to determine one another. We are told our actions do so among us.There are God's promises in the Bible that clearly state that if we come to Christ sincerely and honestly, He will not cast us away.
Every person in the world is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, but not all take advantage of it. God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance, but not all will take up the offer of salvation through Christ.
Election is a mystery because we know that every person who honestly and sincerely accepts Christ as Saviour, turns from the world, flesh and the devil, is saved, and then discovered that he or she was actually elected to salvation.
It is not actually up to us to say who is elected and who is not. We don't have enough information to know. God knows the hearts. We can only look on the outward appearance.
We can look on a person who does not appear to have any interest in religion, and determine by appearances that he is not the type to believe the gospel and accept Christ, so many believers would not try to give him the gospel. Then one believer comes along, gives him the benefit of the doubt, shares the gospel, leads the person to Christ, and that person becomes a committed Christ for the rest of his life.
Some potential converts may, in fact, be lost because Christians, by look at outward appearances, will assume that the person is not elected because he or she doesn't look like the type who would come to Christ. Whose fault is that? God's? Not likely! It is the fault of the faithless unbelieving Christian who couldn't be bothered seeking God to find out what the Holy Spirit has to say about the person.
Why did Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles to abide in John 15 if they cannot fail to abide?
Spurgeon fought hyper Calvinism of the fatalist stripe as much as he fought liberal theology.I concur with that perfect reasoning. Spurgeon was a Calvinist, but Calvinists of his day accused him of being soft. Rightly so, evidently, and I count that a very good thing.
Agreed, though I do not know where you would take it, or why you say that. Jonah would say, I think, that God uses means to accomplish exactly whatever he planned from the beginning.I think Jonah would disagree my friend.
Maybe because that is how they will not fail to abide? And he has made it inevitable by indwelling. That is to say, "They do so..." (as my family is known to say concerning obedience), "...because it is so." He does it, so they do it.
He will not allow the indwelling Word to return void. It will indeed accomplish all he has sent it to do.
From what I have seen and experienced, Reformed doctrine and Monergism does not by any means relinquish the redeemed from responsibility. Quite the opposite --it places them into the position of being dependent and answerable to God himself (and gladly so) as mere creatures, that he has in his love and mercy, and by his work alone, given a status beyond even the angels --we mere creatures, who deserve none of it and cannot earn it, made worthy not by our virtue but by the imputed virtue of Christ.
We are by no means on a level with God where he must answer to us. Far be it from us to claim that kind of status or knowledge! Yet that is what we are saying, if we make the claim (extracted by human understanding) that "God needs our free will choices to accomplish his plan.").
Agreed, though I do not know where you would take it, or why you say that. Jonah would say, I think, that God uses means to accomplish exactly whatever he planned from the beginning.
I agree with your words, because no, the potter does not choose because of what the vessel becomes; he chooses and makes the vessel for the purpose he has in mind. I'm thinking the poster you answered simply misspoke, because (if memory serves) he did say words to the effect that God had a purpose in mind when he made the vessel.
Calvin doesn't teach there is no reason to preach the Gospel. That is a poor logic that decides there is no need to preach the Gospel simply because God predestines. He obviously uses means to accomplish his ends.
God created for a very specific purpose. He is not one to make a general plan to fill in the spaces by the seat of his pants. He does not choose from a pool of possibles.
There is no plan B. Must he kiss the rear end of "free will" and bow to absolute chance (as if there was such a thing)? The Creator is not subject to any principle or fact, real or imagined.
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