What if: Many Are Called (Free Will), Few Are Chosen (Predestined).

[Butch5]

How do you understand Romans 9:23-4? Paul puts himself in the category of the called and afore-prepared; but he also says "Jews and Gentiles" are part of that group.

Called and predestined are different

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Called and predestined are different

Butch5, I thank God that He used you to get me to re-examine this area. But, I would ask that you do the same. I had linked predestined and chosen. But, that isn't how God used Paul to link it. Paul linked predestined and called in Romans 8:28-30 and Romans 9:23-4, although in the latter he said "afore prepared" not actually using the word predestined (but certainly a similar meaning at least).

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, I thank God that He used you to get me to re-examine this area. But, I would ask that you do the same. I had linked predestined and chosen. But, that isn't how God used Paul to link it. Paul linked predestined and called in Romans 8:28-30 and Romans 9:23-4, although in the latter he said "afore prepared" not actually using the word predestined (but certainly a similar meaning at least).

Hi Johnny, If you look carefully at Romans you'll find that in the passages you mentioned Paul is address the Jews in the church at Rome. He begins in Romans 2:17 where he turns his attention to the Jewish believers. He continues this discussion through to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. In the Romans 8 passage Paul is clearly talking about Jews. Those who were foreknown and predestined are Jews. He says 'for we know' or for we have perceived that God works all things together for good for those who love Him. It is the Jews who would have perceived this, not the Gentiles. The Jews had a long history with God. Those could look at that history and see that God did work all things together for good to those who loved Him. The Gentiles had no such thing. In chapter 8 Paul is writing of those that God foreknew. Paul makes it crystal clear in chapter 11 who it is that God foreknew.

say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

According to Paul those who were foreknown were, called, predestined, justified, and glorified, and he said the foreknown were Israelites.

You also mentioned that Paul connected the gentiles with those who were before prepared for glory. We have to remember, Abraham, was chosen and he was a Gentile, Isaac was chosen and he was a gentile. So, there gentiles chosen by God before there were Israelites.

I suspect, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're connecting, those who were before prepared for glory, with being saved. Is that correct? I would suggest that that's not the case.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Hi Johnny, If you look carefully at Romans you'll find that in the passages you mentioned Paul is address the Jews in the church at Rome. He begins in Romans 2:17 where he turns his attention to the Jewish believers. He continues this discussion through to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. In the Romans 8 passage Paul is clearly talking about Jews. Those who were foreknown and predestined are Jews. He says 'for we know' or for we have perceived that God works all things together for good for those who love Him. It is the Jews who would have perceived this, not the Gentiles. The Jews had a long history with God. Those could look at that history and see that God did work all things together for good to those who loved Him. The Gentiles had no such thing. In chapter 8 Paul is writing of those that God foreknew. Paul makes it crystal clear in chapter 11 who it is that God foreknew.

say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

According to Paul those who were foreknown were, called, predestined, justified, and glorified, and he said the foreknown were Israelites.

You also mentioned that Paul connected the gentiles with those who were before prepared for glory. We have to remember, Abraham, was chosen and he was a Gentile, Isaac was chosen and he was a gentile. So, there gentiles chosen by God before there were Israelites.

I suspect, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're connecting, those who were before prepared for glory, with being saved. Is that correct? I would suggest that that's not the case.

Did you just say that Romans 2:17 through Romans 11:13 is irrelevant to Gentile believers--that Paul spent a bulk of a letter addressed to believers talking preferentially to Jewish believers? We are talking about the Apostle Paul, right? Shoot, this is a new one for me. I've heard of people who write off what Jesus and all the other Scripture writers say, because they say that was written to the Jews and Paul is the Gentiles' Apostle. But, I have never heard someone talk about writing off Paul's writings as if they were written only to the Jews within a body of believers.

I believe you are wholly wrong. I believe that Scriptures about walking in the Spirit versus walking in the flesh apply to me as much as Jewish believers. I believe the discussion about Abraham being the father of my faith is wholly relevant to me. In reality, I believe the bulk of Romans applies to me or could have applied to me. I have seen God make good on His promise to make all things work out for the good--even if I didn't see it when the bad thing happened in the moment.

With regards to your linking of saved. No, I am simply reading the text and saying "afore prepared" and predestined (which Paul says pertains to both the Jews and the Gentiles) which both end in glory are the same thing and Paul links the calling to both Jews and Gentiles, not just Jewish believers in his words, not mine. (Romans 9:23-4)

 

[Butch5]

Did you just say that Romans 2:17 through Romans 11:13 is irrelevant to Gentile believers--that Paul spent a bulk of a letter addressed to believers talking preferentially to Jewish believers? We are talking about the Apostle Paul, right? Shoot, this is a new one for me. I've heard of people who write off what Jesus and all the other Scripture writers say, because they say that was written to the Jews and Paul is the Gentiles' Apostle. But, I have never heard someone talk about writing off Paul's writings as if they were written only to the Jews within a body of believers.

I believe you are wholly wrong. I believe that Scriptures about walking in the Spirit versus walking in the flesh apply to me as much as Jewish believers. I believe the discussion about Abraham being the father of my faith is wholly relevant to me. In reality, I believe the bulk of Romans applies to me or could have applied to me. I have seen God make good on His promise to make all things work out for the good--even if I didn't see it when the bad thing happened in the moment.

With regards to your linking of saved. No, I am simply reading the text and saying "afore prepared" and predestined (which Paul says pertains to both the Jews and the Gentiles) which both end in glory are the same thing and Paul links the calling to both Jews and Gentiles, not just Jewish believers in his words, not mine. (Romans 9:23-4)

If you look closely at what I wrote you'll see that I said Paul was addressing the Jews in that section of the book. I didn't say what Paul was irrelevant. You have to rememeber that nothing in the Bible was to you. There were different audiences at different times. Paul also wrote this,

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Cor. 3:1-3 KJV)

Paul wrote that to Christians, would you apply it to yourself? I suspect not. Why? Because he was addressing the believers in the curch at Corinth.

Having said, Paul was addressing the Jews in that section of the book. If we're going to understand what the Bible means we have to understand the context. So, when Paul says, 'for we know' in Romans 8:28 he's talking about Jews, not gentiles, not you or me, but the Jews in the church at Rome. Whether what he wrote is applicable to us or not is another story. The point is that he is writing this section of his letter to the Jews in that church.

Now you've added the word calling. Calling is different than chosen and predestined. Now we've got three different words. We can't interchange different words that mean different things. We need to define these words.