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Featured What if: Many Are Called (Free Will), Few Are Chosen (Predestined).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Dec 29, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What if they are both true and not exclusive? What if some are just supernaturally chosen. Like it or not, Scripture clearly seems to indicate that some are. But, what if everyone else is truly called--the opportunity is truly available for them to come to God through Jesus of their own free will?

    Let's be honest: If you think that people are truly chosen and predestined, then whether you and I are obedient to preach the Gospel or not won't affect the chosen from being chosen and coming alive to God. If it does, you have just sacrificed some of that sovereignty that you think God is giving up because He allows free will. It would mean that because a chosen one isn't obedient, other chosen ones wouldn't come to God. That means that a human's actions would have prevented God's chosen ones from coming to Him.

    So, why preach the Gospel if the chosen will be chosen regardless and the unchosen can't answer the call? It is only Good News to the chosen ones--who don't need to hear you preach it anyway because it is going to happen regardless OR is it called Good News, because anyone can answer the call who isn't chosen?
     
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  2. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi Johnny, why God included preaching the Gospel as an integral part of coming to saving faith I cannot say, nevertheless, it's clear from the Bible that He did.

    Romans 10
    17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
    1) God commands us to .. e.g. Mark 16:15

    2) Faith comes from "hearing" .. e.g. John 5:24; Romans 10:17

    3) We cannot know who God's elect are before they've come to faith in Christ .. cf Acts 13:48

    Yours and His,
    David

    [​IMG]
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Paul was commanded to preach the Gospel and scatter seed. God knows His people.

    Acts 18: NASB

    7So Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his whole household believed in the Lord. And many of the Corinthians who heard the message believed and were baptized.

    9One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking; do not be silent. 10For I am with you and no one will lay a hand on you, because I have many people in this city.” 11So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching the word of God among the Corinthians. (NASB)

    I trust God’s Sovereignty.
     
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  4. WESTOZZIE

    WESTOZZIE Active Member Supporter

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    How will they believe unless someone is sent to preach to them the good news? Paul's reasoning in
    Romans 10
     
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  5. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand what you believe, David. I certainly agree that some are chosen; but I don't agree that because some are chosen, others don't come through choice.

    I love the quote by Spurgeon, but if he believed that the unchosen couldn't be saved, that was all hot air. Because then a lost sinner couldn't help but be a lost sinner who is was foreordained for destruction. There is no reason to put your arms around his knees unless you think you think you are stronger than God. But, if you believe people have a choice to come to Him, then it certainly makes sense to do everything you can to keep them from their seemingly chosen destiny in hopes that God will intervene on their behalf through you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    I don’t see any “elect spectre detectors” issued to evangelists in the NT.

    Our mission is to preach the Gospel. God sorts out the rest.

    The reason Reformed mostly focus on God choosing is because He is Sovereign in salvation. Something lost on post modern forms of Christianity.

    For the post modern the focus is on what something means to them and what they get out of it. Totally forgetting that God is living, active and omniscient.

    No one in our bloated Western society wants what they think is an overbearing God not immediately answering their every whim and demand.
     
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  7. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with the Scriptures and I, too, trust God's Absolute Sovereignty. I only believe choice is an option for us, because that Absolutely Sovereign God chose to allow it and believe that there is no amount of human choice that can alter what God intends to be the end. God already called His shot(s). And, I believe He always delivers when He says He will do something. But, I believe that preaching opens the door for those who aren't chosen, to come.

    It is like the Word God spoke to the Prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 3:17-21:

    "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Yes to you and me and every other evangelist we are to preach the Gospel assuming all in the room will hear and believe. That is to be our desire.

    Why people think there are elect tags on people I don’t know.

    Romans 8:16 tells us.
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    There is an obvious non-sequitur within this short quote.
    God does not choose someone who chooses on their own to remain evil.
    When God chooses someone,
    is similar to when a potter decides to keep a clay vessel -
    it is because it becomes what He makes of it and is fit for the intended purpose.
    If someone chooses to resist the devil, the devil flees.
    If someone chooses to resist God, God waits - He won't coerce their will or their choice, as that would be un-Godly to do.

    If God chooses someone like Saul, who was at the time opposed to Jesus,
    God knows what Saul will do later,
    as God knows everything....
    Paul willingly surrendered , gave up his previous life of sin,
    and obeyed Jesus.
    God knew Paul would obey, since God knows everything, for all time.
    God perfectly knew Saul's heart/ Paul's heart - as ONLY the PURE IN HEART will see God. Saul's heart was not pure;
    God gave Paul a new heart and a clean spirit (like King David asked for),
    and knew Paul's heart and mind(renewed) willingly and joyously
    delighted as a new creation to serve and worship God instead of sinnin.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    p.s. the wars stirred up by the religious and governmental powers that be,
    are not God's wars, not just wars, and will be accounted for as written in Scripture. i.e. man's will to cause harm and destruction is contrary to God's Will and God's Purpose in Christ Jesus........ God lets men do that, remain enemies of God, until God puts a stop to it.
     
  11. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think of God as overbearing at all. And, while I am excited about what God promises for the future, if I was simply following God for what I got out of it in the present, there is no worldly measure that I didn't lose out in. So, for anyone to claim that I am following God simply because of what I get here and now--at least in regards to worldly measures--would be complete ignorance on their part. I've done stuff that could have gotten me killed, because He told me to. That is how much I trust the Sovereign God who woke me up.

    I also don't see God as a hitler-type. That isn't because of "western society" as much as it is because I don't see hitler as being love.
     
  12. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The Spurgeon quote is disturbing I must say, but God bless him, he's right. Make every effort but let's consider something a little less cut and dried. Lot offers his virgin daughters to the children of perdition in Sodom, not very nice of him, but I think he was trying to save their lives but that is just me. We can beg, plead and petition the children of disobedience till we are blue in the face, and perhaps should. But ultimately we must defer to the one who judges the whole world in righteousness.

    I don't know, maybe I'm speaking out of turn. Just wanted to toss that in there and thank you for a remarkably insightful quote.
     
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  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for correcting me, concerning what I said about to David about "thinking more deeply". That doesn't accomplish anything. I will fix my post to Him and apologize.
     
  14. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did Lot offer his virgin daughters to protect men of Sodom or to protect the visitors? I would argue that Lot was protecting the visitors. I would also argue Lot knew who they were in some sense, if not completely. I suggest that based on Genesis 19:1-2.

    As a believer who trusts God, if I knew God was sending His angels to me, I would be willing to offer my wife and my daughter to protect the angels, because I would know that God could protect my wife and my daughter better than I could; because I trust God with them--just like Abraham trusted God with Isaac and Ishmael. I know that God can bring them back; but if I try to protect them myself, we could all be lost--just like if Abraham had said "no" to God with regard to Isaac or Ishmael.

    As basis for rejecting what you suggested, when the angels told Lot what they were going to do, he didn't try to intercede for the others, he interceded for himself and his family to not go as far as they told him to go (Gen 19:12-14, 17-21).
     
  15. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member

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    When you are filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in God's will what are you?

    Read Jeremiah 3:14

    We have a part in that, our part is sharing the Gospel with the one and the two...

    Why?

    Read 2 Corinthians 5:20 for the answer

    We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
     
  16. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Think what you like, Lot was scrambling to avert disaster. I doubt seriously the angels were in jeopardy, but the men of Sodom definitely were. The angels dragged Lot back in as he tried to reason with those guys, guess they were not listening so good.

    if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. (2 Peter 7-9)
    A righteous man offers his virgin daughters to the wicked. Got to wonder what he was thinking.
     
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  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There are God's promises in the Bible that clearly state that if we come to Christ sincerely and honestly, He will not cast us away.

    Every person in the world is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, but not all take advantage of it. God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance, but not all will take up the offer of salvation through Christ.

    Election is a mystery because we know that every person who honestly and sincerely accepts Christ as Saviour, turns from the world, flesh and the devil, is saved, and then discovered that he or she was actually elected to salvation.

    It is not actually up to us to say who is elected and who is not. We don't have enough information to know. God knows the hearts. We can only look on the outward appearance.

    We can look on a person who does not appear to have any interest in religion, and determine by appearances that he is not the type to believe the gospel and accept Christ, so many believers would not try to give him the gospel. Then one believer comes along, gives him the benefit of the doubt, shares the gospel, leads the person to Christ, and that person becomes a committed Christ for the rest of his life.

    Some potential converts may, in fact, be lost because Christians, by look at outward appearances, will assume that the person is not elected because he or she doesn't look like the type who would come to Christ. Whose fault is that? God's? Not likely! It is the fault of the faithless unbelieving Christian who couldn't be bothered seeking God to find out what the Holy Spirit has to say about the person.
     
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  18. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Yes, or maybe I should say, Amen! I don't know, but yes.
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Fascinating!!!

    I do like this idea very much and it would help to explain how and why G-d might choose to use multiple fulfillments of Ezekiel chapter 37 to set in motion multiple time lines......... within many of which so much of the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh that people who did not repent in other time lines....... are led to salvation in those time lines where lots of the Holy Spirit / living waters are flowing!


    Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.
     
  20. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I agree, it is both. God made man in His own image, and I see that as God has given man sovereignty over his own will, and power to choose Christ from his own free will.

    The "elect" has been said to be God's predestined ones, and I see in scripture that is Israel, but we know not all Israel was saved, so election is both predestined, and free will.


    Isaiah 42:1
    “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

    Isaiah 45:4
    For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

    Isaiah 65:22
    They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

    Matthew 24:22
    And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

    In reading Ephesians 1, I see that not only was Israel God's elect and predestined, but the apostles were predestined. They are who "first trusted in Christ." Then through free will, "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth."


    4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Here again, we see the apostles were predestined, but even then one was lost.

    John 17:12
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    John 18:9
    that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

    John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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