What if God had a beginning?

[JohnClay]

Well, only because there was previously no one to literally "consider Him" as such.

What if a person was playing Minecraft with mods and debugging tools, etc (that allowed you to do just about everything). The NPCs in the game like villagers aren't intelligent enough to have a belief that you are a god but I think you could still be considered a god....

 

[Paulomycin]

What if a person was playing Minecraft with mods and debugging tools, etc (that allowed you to do just about everything). The NPCs in the game like villagers aren't intelligent enough to have a belief that you are a god but I think you could still be considered a god....

Correct. Because you'd still be omnipotent.

 

[ewq1938]

So I'm not saying that God's godhood definitely had a beginning.... just that it seems that way if you have a simulation that's like our universe within a universe with physics like ours.... and the physics of our universe had a beginning so the creators outside of the simulations would also have a beginning....

I just don't see anything that supports that last statement. It seems to be an opinion from one of those in the simulation but devoid of any actual evidence for it. Seems like circular logic.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, of course. Who are all created beings. Meaning there was a point in time where God had no one to consider Him "God."

One person of the Trinity can think of another person of the Trinity as God so created beings aren't needed for Godhood to be recognized.


Heb_1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[JohnClay]

So I'm not saying that God's godhood definitely had a beginning.... just that it seems that way if you have a simulation that's like our universe within a universe with physics like ours.... and the physics of our universe had a beginning so the creators outside of the simulations would also have a beginning....

I just don't see anything that supports that last statement. It seems to be an opinion from one of those in the simulation but devoid of any actual evidence for it. Seems like circular logic.

Well according to astrophysicists universes that have a have a beginning make some sense. Some say that universes without a beginning could make sense. Even if the universe had no beginning, planets that intelligence emerges on, like Earth, would have had a beginning...
Simulations would emerge from planets that intelligence emerges from. The creators of these simulations would have a godhood with a beginning...
I think that seems more plausible than just asserting there was a God that had an eternally begotten Son that emerged more than a googolplex years before its creations...

 

[ewq1938]

Simulations would emerge from planets that intelligence emerges from. The creators of these simulations would have a godhood with a beginning.

You are leaving out the concept of a simulation being created by someone who is not from a planet that had a beginning where intelligence emerged from.

 

[JohnClay]

You are leaving out the concept of a simulation being created by someone who is not from a planet that had a beginning where intelligence emerged from.

Though in physics there is the concept of thermodynamics... things are tending towards disorder and energy becoming less useful like in the case of uniform temperature. So while things like the Pyramids and the Colosseum began very ordered, they are falling part and disintegrating. This makes it hard for an intelligence to exist forever... the intelligence needs energy to run... but the energy like individual stars is finite... so I guess the intelligence would need to travel from star to star to obtain its energy to run...

 

[ewq1938]

Though in physics there is the concept of thermodynamics... things are tending towards disorder and energy becoming less useful like in the case of uniform temperature. So while things like the Pyramids and the Colosseum began very ordered, they are falling part and disintegrating. This makes it hard for an intelligence to exist forever... the intelligence needs energy to run... but the energy like individual stars is finite... so I guess the intelligence would need to travel from star to star to obtain its energy to run...

Seems like you are thinking of the rules and physics of this created world/possible computer simulation and applying those to something that might not be limited by those rules. IMO a creator God would not need energy to functions nor would gradually degrade over time.

 

[JohnClay]

Seems like you are thinking of the rules and physics of this created world/possible computer simulation and applying those to something that might not be limited by those rules. IMO a creator God would not need energy to functions nor would gradually degrade over time.

I guess it depends if you're talking about a physical universe or not. In a physical universe it takes energy for an intelligence (like a brain or a computer) to continue to function.... or at least their actions (using things like muscles or motors) would require ongoing energy...
Or at least in a normal physical universe that astrophysicists think about....

 

[ewq1938]

I guess it depends if you're talking about a physical universe or not. In a physical universe it takes energy for an intelligence (like a brain or a computer) to continue to function.... or at least their actions (using things like muscles or motors) would require ongoing energy...

Perhaps, if that intelligence originated from that universe but not if it did not. In this world/universe we only think of things that have a beginning, need energy to exist, and eventually die but those may not even exist elsewhere in alternate universes or in a concept where a universe doesn't exist nor needs to exist.

 

[disciple Clint]

I think a belief in a God can be compatible with the semi-scientific belief that God is the creator of a simulation. It would allow the creator to be omniscient and omnipotent within the simulation (since it is just a computer game).

I was under the impression that in traditional Christianity, God has no beginning.... apparently even the Father's son, Jesus, had no beginning... and this isn't compatible with the idea that the godhood started with the simulation.

In the history of the church has there ever been the belief that God or the Jesus part of God had a beginning? Is there a term for this concept?

If God was created then He would not be the Supreme Being, He would not be God. It would violate the law of non contradiction.

 

[JohnClay]

If God was created then He would not be the Supreme Being, He would not be God. It would violate the law of non contradiction.

What if a person started up a game of The Sims.... Using mods and hacking tools they would be capable of just about anything including creating houses out of nothing... and fly around and not having a physical body... would it be fair to say that the player is "the supreme being"?

 

[Rachel20]

Is it possible that God’s omnipotence and omniscience only began when he created a simulation? That’s the question….

I don't see how. The conception of the simulation along with the power to carry it out would necessarily precede the simulation's creation.

But I suppose it's possible God's omnipotence/omniscience could only be manifest through his creation, as he uses it for that very purpose with Job. It's interesting that if Job were to wonder if he was in a simulation within a simulation (making God himself a simulation), God showed that none preceded him, making him supreme and owning all -

Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?
Everything under heaven is Mine. Job 41:11

 

[JohnClay]

I don't see how. The conception of the simulation along with the power to carry it out would necessarily precede the simulation's creation.

But I suppose it's possible God's omnipotence/omniscience could only be manifest through his creation, as he uses it for that very purpose with Job. It's interesting that if Job were to wonder if he was in a simulation within a simulation (making God himself a simulation), God showed that none preceded him, making him supreme and owning all -

Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?
Everything under heaven is Mine. Job 41:11

I think "Everything under heaven is Mine" would be referring to what God has created. The "Who has preceded Me" part is important though it just means that God isn't aware of having a creator.

Related to this, here is a cartoon set in an utopian future where the character of people are tested to see how much power they'd have... in it a human called "Yahweh" is put into a simulation where he has no memory of his original identity and is put into the role of God. Note that in that cartoon, "Yahweh" is portrayed as a flawed guy....

About whether God would have knowledge that he was in a simulation or not:
At the end of the cartoon it has the title of "Omniscience" crossed out and says:

No mind - no matter how powerful - could ever honestly claim to be free from deception or unknown unknowns.​

 

[Rachel20]

About whether God would have knowledge that he was in a simulation or not:
At the end of the cartoon it has the title of "Omniscience" crossed out and says:

No mind - no matter how powerful - could ever honestly claim to be free from deception or unknown unknowns.​

The definition of omniscience requires no deception or unknown unknowns. Which is why God equates his knowledge of no other God to there being no other God -

"... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8

 

[JohnClay]

The definition of omniscience requires no deception or unknown unknowns. Which is why God equates his knowledge of no other God to there being no other God -

"... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8

This is suggesting that God just thinks he is omniscient rather than being truly omniscient. A similar thing is Descartes' thought experiment... a person might think they are justified in their beliefs about reality but theoretically they could be misguided.... except for their belief that they exist in some sense....
Though God could be omniscient about the simulation - just not omniscient about all of the possible worlds and simulations that might be above him...

 

[Moral Orel]

The definition of omniscience requires no deception or unknown unknowns. Which is why God equates his knowledge of no other God to there being no other God -

"... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:8

That or He just committed an argument from ignorance fallacy.

 

[Rachel20]

That or He just committed an argument from ignorance fallacy.

Sure, but if we're no longer talking about an omniscient God, then we're no longer talking about the Christian's definition of God.

 

[Rachel20]

I think "Everything under heaven is Mine" would be referring to what God has created.

And to any simulations within the simulation, if God is the original sim creator, making all the others just "gods" in the little 'g' sense.

 

[Moral Orel]

Sure, but if we're no longer talking about an omniscient God, then we're no longer talking about the Christian's definition of God.

Well the reason for pointing out that deception and unknown unknowns is a problem is because omniscience and omnipotence are impossible. So if omniscience is impossible, and God is required to be omniscient by definition, then God is impossible.

I don't actually take the issue that far, but that's the logical conclusion of solving this problem by defining it away.