What if God had a beginning?

JohnClay

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I think a belief in a God can be compatible with the semi-scientific belief that God is the creator of a simulation. It would allow the creator to be omniscient and omnipotent within the simulation (since it is just a computer game).

I was under the impression that in traditional Christianity, God has no beginning.... apparently even the Father's son, Jesus, had no beginning... and this isn't compatible with the idea that the godhood started with the simulation.

In the history of the church has there ever been the belief that God or the Jesus part of God had a beginning? Is there a term for this concept?
 

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In the history of the church has there ever been the belief that God or the Jesus part of God had a beginning? Is there a term for this concept

The Arians held that the Son had a beginning.
 
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ewq1938

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I think a belief in a God can be compatible with the semi-scientific belief that God is the creator of a simulation. It would allow the creator to be omniscient and omnipotent within the simulation (since it is just a computer game).

I was under the impression that in traditional Christianity, God has no beginning.... apparently even the Father's son, Jesus, had no beginning... and this isn't compatible with the idea that the godhood started with the simulation.

That doesn't match what you presented in the first paragraph where a God creates a simulation, not that God was created in the simulation. In the bolded part above, God is still without a beginning. It is the simulation that has a beginning.

If this reality is actually a simulation, God still has no beginning.
 
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ChetSinger

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The presbyter Arius taught that Jesus had a beginning. The council in Nicaea was held primarily to address this. After the debate had finished Arius had won over only about 1% of the bishops, though. His beliefs actually gained more ground after he died before fading out in the 5th century.

Today's Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was the angel Michael, who after death became an angel again. So perhaps that's relevant.

Orthodox belief is that the Son is eternal with the Father. And that makes sense to me because it's hard to imagine a "time" when God was without his Word or his Wisdom (Jesus is also held to be the Wisdom of God in human form).
 
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JohnClay

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That doesn't match what you presented in the first paragraph where a God creates a simulation, not that God was created in the simulation. In the bolded part above, God is still without a beginning. It is the simulation that has a beginning.

If this reality is actually a simulation, God still has no beginning.
I'm saying that the reason why a creator of a simulation is considered a god is because they have omnipotence and omniscience and had created something out of nothing in some sense. Before the simulations they wouldn't have those attributes so they wouldn't yet be a "god"...
 
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JohnClay

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Then God would not be omnipotent, and I would be atheistic about your god.
I think someone that intervenes with a simulation with minimal limitations (e.g. playing Minecraft with mods) could be considered omnipotent....
 
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Paulomycin

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I think someone that intervenes with a simulation with minimal limitations (e.g. playing Minecraft with mods) could be considered omnipotent....

I tenatively agree. But only from the perspective of the Minecraft's "omni." Our understanding of omnipotence is limited to this side of the omni.
 
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ewq1938

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I'm saying that the reason why a creator of a simulation is considered a god is because they have omnipotence and omniscience and had created something out of nothing in some sense. Before the simulations they wouldn't have those attributes so they wouldn't yet be a "god"...

Why would only creating a simulation make you a God? Couldn't he have done something else that would show they were God before making that simulation? This also does not affect whether or not they had no beginning.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think a belief in a God can be compatible with the semi-scientific belief that God is the creator of a simulation. It would allow the creator to be omniscient and omnipotent within the simulation (since it is just a computer game).

I was under the impression that in traditional Christianity, God has no beginning.... apparently even the Father's son, Jesus, had no beginning... and this isn't compatible with the idea that the godhood started with the simulation.

In the history of the church has there ever been the belief that God or the Jesus part of God had a beginning? Is there a term for this concept?

There has been something kind of like that but it isn't exactly a reflection of what you're asking about here........and as with a lot of theories, it turned out to be "immaterial." :rolleyes:

-- see the theology of George Berkeley

Is Berkeley's Universe a Spiritual Hologram?
 
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JohnClay

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Why would only creating a simulation make you a God? Couldn't he have done something else that would show they were God before making that simulation? This also does not affect whether or not they had no beginning.
I think simulations are a semi-scientific situation where a being (even an AI) could be considered a God. The traditional idea of God is that he had always been omniscient and omnipotent... but if these abilities involved simulations then he can only be considered a God when the simulations started....
 
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ewq1938

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I think simulations are a semi-scientific situation where a being (even an AI) could be considered a God. The traditional idea of God is that he had always been omniscient and omnipotent... but if these abilities involved simulations then he can only be considered a God when the simulations started....

No, that would be the only time the created "people" in the simulation knew of this God. It doesn't equal that is when he became a God. He just became a God to them at that time. He could have been a God without any beginning before he made the simulation.
 
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JohnClay

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No, that would be the only time the created "people" in the simulation knew of this God. It doesn't equal that is when he became a God. He just became a God to them at that time. He could have been a God without any beginning before he made the simulation.
Becoming a God due to a simulation makes sense to me. God existing forever doesn't make sense to me.... it would involve God existing for more than a googolplex years before the simulation. That is the traditional belief though. I'm asking about the possibility of the simulation being used to explain the existence of the godhood....
 
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ewq1938

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That seems like a theoretical argument rather than being based on the semi-scientific idea of a simulation. I mean becoming a God due to a simulation makes sense to me.

I agree but that is only from the perspective of those who are in that simulation. However, that does not determine if that God had a beginning or not before making the simulation. The very fact that the God existed before the simulation was made proves he existed before the simulation. The next question is how long did he exist before creating that simulation? One would have to go by what that God said because there would be no other option but baseless guessing on the part of those within the simulation.


God existing forever doesn't make sense to me.... it would involve God existing for more than a googolplex years before the simulation.

I think it's natural for a created being to have difficulty with the concept of something never having a creation/beginning.

That is the traditional belief though. I'm asking about the possibility of the simulation being used to explain the existence of the godhood....

Seems that there's two subjects here. The existence of a God and whether that God had a beginning or not.

Since a video game proves there was a video game creator, a simulation would also show someone or something created that simulation. However, none of that addresses whether that creator a beginning or not.
 
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JohnClay

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....I think it's natural for a created being to have difficulty with the concept of something never having a creation/beginning.
God either existed for more than a googolplex years before the simulation or he didn’t. If he existed for less than a googolplex years then he had been around a limited amount of time before the simulation.

Also:
Is it conceivable that God had no beginning - yes (maybe)

Is it possible that God’s omnipotence and omniscience only began when he created a simulation? That’s the question….
 
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ewq1938

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God either existed for more than a googolplex years before the simulation or he didn’t. If he existed for less than a googolplex years then he had been around a limited amount of time before the simulation.

Also:
Is it conceivable that God had no beginning - yes.

I think it's clear that creating a simulation is unrelated to whether or not God had a beginning so we can move on from that.



Is it possible that God’s omnipotence and omniscience only began when he created a simulation? That’s the question….

And those in the simulation would have no idea aside from what that God told them. How could a simulated person have access to direct information from before his own creation? All he could be sure of is that he and his world had a beginning and had a creator of some form.
 
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ewq1938

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Well, only because there was previously no one to literally "consider Him" as such.


Except the angels and other creatures he created. Archangels (1 Thessalonians 4:16), Cherubim (Genesis 3:24), Chayim (Ezekiel 1:5), Zoon (Revelation 4:6), or Saraphims (Isaiah 6:2).
 
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JohnClay

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All he could be sure of is that he and his world had a beginning and had a creator of some form.
So I'm not saying that God's godhood definitely had a beginning.... just that it seems that way if you have a simulation that's like our universe within a universe with physics like ours.... and the physics of our universe had a beginning so the creators outside of the simulations would also have a beginning....
 
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Paulomycin

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Except the angels and other creatures he created. Archangels (1 Thessalonians 4:16), Cherubim (Genesis 3:24), Chayim (Ezekiel 1:5), Zoon (Revelation 4:6), or Saraphims (Isaiah 6:2).

Yes, of course. Who are all created beings. Meaning there was a point in time where God had no one to consider Him "God."
 
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