What if Adam had refused to eat the forbidden fruit?

[SkyWriting]

Agree! We're not Plan B. God knew all along from beginning to end. Funny how God purposely pointed out the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, like a Wet Paint sign, "and don't touch THAT one"...then purposely allowed the Serpent into the perfect garden of Eden? Really Lord? Heh

Becasue the serpent was part of the plan.

 

[SkyWriting]

It doesn't say that...you missed what it was actually saying.

Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.

These are known as "givens" or facts. Sparks of a fire indeed do fly upward so he compares that a man will experience trouble or hardship in life as another fact of life. What is not being said is a child is born and sparks suddenly appear out of no where.

It might be referring to the language women use during childbirth. !(^)!!%%!

 

[2tim_215]

sparks (Strong's) from <H8313> (saraph); a live coal; by analogy lightning; figurative an arrow (as flashing through the air); specifically fever :- arrow, (burning) coal, burning heat, + spark, hot thunderbolt.

upward (Strong's) a primitive root; to soar, i.e. be lofty; figurative to be haughty :- exalt, be haughty, be (make) high (-er), lift up, mount up, be proud, raise up great height, upward.

trouble (Strong's) G5999 from <H5998> (`amal); toil, i.e. wearing effort; hence worry, whether of body or mind :- grievance (-vousness), iniquity, labour, mischief, miserable (-sery), pain (-ful), perverseness, sorrow, toil, travail, trouble, wearisome, wickedness.

That's what it does say. Don't know what you mean by givens or facts. Yes, it is a fact because God said it. How you might want to interpret it is up to you I suppose.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Psalms 11:3(KJV) If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
When I get it right, it's the Holy Spirit, when I get it wrong, it's just me.

 

[2tim_215]

/dual post

 

[friend of]

This is a really good question. Thank you for it.

If Eve was the only one responsible for sinning in the garden of Eden, I'd imagine she would be the only one who felt nakedness before God. Their relationship would surely be strained if Eve was the only one responsible for disobedience because Adam wouldn't know what it felt like to be stark naked in front of the presence of almighty God. I imagine this would mortify Adam. As to whether or not Adam would be the all in all to restore her is anyone's guess, but I think Jesus would still appear eventually. Eve's disobedience would still be on her and maybe she'd have been cast out of Eden with the serpent and become a demon. Who knows...

 

[parousia70]

What about this?

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said,
“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also
from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Well, does one need to partake of the tree of life again and again to sustain physical life or is one bite enough?
It was in the garden for a reason, and Adam and Eve were told by God they could "freely eat" from it.. so, apparently, even in their perfect sinless state they needed access to the tree of life in order to live forever...

I think an interesting "what if" question would be "what if Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of Knowledge but also never ate from the tree of life?"

Would they have physically died in a sinless state? We know that is possible for Christ did just that.

 

[friend of]

I think an interesting "what if" question would be "what if Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of Knowledge but also never ate from the tree of life?"

It could be that everything that bared fruit was considered the Tree of Life because they were in that state of sinless dependence upon the Lord. If they ate from the tree of life it would have been business as usual. I don't think partaking of the Tree of Life after eating forbidden fruit would have necessarily improved their lot, but it may have kept them in the state of permanent exile.

 

[bling]

Humankind "fulfilling the earthly objective" ???
That's news to me. Tell us more about this . Thanks.

- Steve

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

To obtain Godly type Love through forgiveness also requires the person to sin and this seems to be the only way to obtain Godly type Love.

 

[Eloy Craft]

No, he said his mom committed a sin in order to get pregnant.

Isn't that inconsistent with this Psalm considering he is passionately referring to his own sin and then to throw in an accusation about his mother's sin? No it's only consistent if he's talking about his own failings.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

whatever sin his mother committed to conceive him....adultery? wife of Jesse? Queen Mother of King David? Whatever sin it was how did that particular sin shape David?

Second, he does not say he had someone else's sin when he was born. He is accusing his mother of committing sin to conceive him and he alone is thus "shapen in iniquity".

Seems like a very inconsistent an odd insertion to this Psalm about one's own transgressions.

This is what David wrote but somehow people tend to see something else which is not there: Behold, humanity was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did mothers conceive us.

Understood as a person being formed in the womb it's reasonable to conclude that the condition is universal.

 

[Eloy Craft]

If Eve was the only one responsible for sinning in the garden of Eden, I'd imagine she would be the only one who felt nakedness before God.

You make a great point here. The change in state of being is profound. Her body is now obedient to the law of death. Survival because it dies. Her free will is severely reduced by disordered passions. Now her body moves involuntarily for survival needs. Urges to reproduce never experienced before. Fears of death never felt before. The powers of the senses cloud her ability to reason. To Adam she would seem much more like an animal.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, does one need to partake of the tree of life again and again to sustain physical life or is one bite enough?
It was in the garden for a reason, and Adam and Eve were told by God they could "freely eat" from it.. so, apparently, even in their perfect sinless state they needed access to the tree of life in order to live forever...

I think an interesting "what if" question would be "what if Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of Knowledge but also never ate from the tree of life?"

Would they have physically died in a sinless state? We know that is possible for Christ did just that.

Yes, that's a curious thing. Thanks.

From the text I gather that they did not eat from it, though it was readily available.
I imagine that they felt no need to do such. They were living already in paradise.
Nothing that they understood was a threat to that. We know better in retrospect.
Did Adam even understand what death was? To "surely die in that day" meant what exactly to him?

It also appears that Eve got the information second hand from Adam.
To which either he or she added, "... and you must not touch it, or you will die." - Genesis 3:3

It seemed that one bite of the forbidden fruit was enough to bring death.
Not as if it could be put aside after one bite to claim that the whole thing had not been eaten.
To eat from the tree, was to eat from the tree.

 

[Saint Steven]

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

To obtain Godly type Love through forgiveness also requires the person to sin and this seems to be the only way to obtain Godly type Love.

I see.
Just your personal opinion. Okay, thanks.

 

[Eloy Craft]

It could be that everything that bared fruit was considered the Tree of Life because they were in that state of sinless dependence upon the Lord. If they ate from the tree of life it would have been business as usual. I don't think partaking of the Tree of Life after eating forbidden fruit would have necessarily improved their lot, but it may have kept them in the state of permanent exile.

One thing the Tree of life in the garden tells us is that there bodies though immortal were passible. Meaning they could die. They needed fuel, so it follows they could run out.
I think it's possible that Jesus as the second Adam ate from the tree of life when He was on earth.. Note in the following passage He really hadn't eaten in a long enough time that the disciples thought he had gotten food from somewhere. This passage is embedded in the story of the woman at the well.

1 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, “Rabbi, eat something.” 32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Surely no one has brought him something to eat?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work. 35 Do you not say, ‘Four months more, then comes the harvest’?

Notice Jesus mentions the months of harvest and links that to eating food they don't know about. Revelation 22 the tree of life is mentioned.

On either side of the river is the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month;

 

[Kaon]

Question: What would have happened if Adam
had refused to eat the forbidden fruit?

Assuming that Eve ate it and transgressed the command of God, but Adam did not.
Would she have been saved by Adam's obedience? Would humankind have been in a
fallen state as a consequence of her sin alone? Furthermore, if Adam had eaten from
the Tree of Life instead, how would that have further affected the situation.

Since the Most High God gave the command to Adam before He split him, if Adam had not "eaten" the "fruit," likely God would have created another woman from Adam.

The trees are entities in the garden. The fruit is their identity.

 

[parousia70]

One thing the Tree of life in the garden tells us is that there bodies though immortal were passible. Meaning they could die. They needed fuel, so it follows they could run out.

I agree.

I think it's possible that Jesus as the second Adam ate from the tree of life when He was on earth..

Rather, I believe Jesus IS the Tree of Life.

Revelation 22 the tree of life is mentioned.

Which is interesting, because supposedly at that point everything has been made perfect and anew... yet there we see the tree whose leaves are for "the healing of the nations"... if everything is perfect and anew at this point, why are the nations in need of healing?

 

[bling]

I see.
Just your personal opinion. Okay, thanks.

How do you define Godly type Love?

 

[Saint Steven]

How do you define Godly type Love?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[bling]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Would canal love do such a thing for those who murdered the son?
Is that a kind of love you grow into or is it totally illogical?

 

[Saint Steven]

Would canal love do such a thing for those who murdered the son?
Is that a kind of love you grow into or is it totally illogical?

I'm guessing you meant "carnal"? (fleshly) ???

I'm not sure where you are going with all these questions.
Do you have a point to make?

I really wanted some scriptural confirmation of your
"humankind fulfilling the earthly objective" idea.

 

[bling]

I'm guessing you meant "carnal"? (fleshly) ???

I'm not sure where you are going with all these questions.
Do you have a point to make?

I really wanted some scriptural confirmation of your
"humankind fulfilling the earthly objective" idea.

All organizations and institutions have a good easy to remember "Mission Statement" and I think God provide one for us as a command "Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy." Duet. 6:5 and lots of other places. The problem is that degree of Love is way beyond man's ability, so man first must obtain it.
From Luke 7:47 we learn "...He that is forgiven much Loves much...", so that means if you are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, you will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (or Godly type Love). That degree of Love thus comes from our accepting as pure sacrificial charity God's forgiveness. I see no other way in scripture of obtaining that kind of Love and as I said if the love we have is instinctive it is not like God's illogical type Love.