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What if a non-elect wants to be saved?

Discussion in 'Ask a Calvinist' started by BibleBeliever1611, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    What if someone who is not God's elect wants to be saved and asks God to save him? Would God then reject him because he wasn't one of the elect?
     
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  2. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    How do you look at that in light of John 6:65?

    And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's correct. If Election is the way things operate, then you'd have to be one of the elect in order to really have Faith in Christ as God and Our Lord.

    I notice that you didn't even stipulate, in your question, that the person you were discussing did that. Instead, you asked about someone who "wants to be saved."

    Throughout history, believing in some sort of higher power and wanting to live forever have been the most powerful ideas held by men, whether they were pagans or something else, so there's nothing unique in that.
     
  4. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

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    Members of my latest church told me they consider themselves "reformed", I hope that qualifies me. God uses an amazingly complex series of intersecting sliding scales to decide how to figure us out and how to weigh us up when He decides about us.

    The repentant thief probably spent some minutes or hours interceding for us (silently) and of course his testimony has encouraged millions. God looks at the integrity of Dismas shown thus. God knew Paul would need many years teaching people and going through danger. Therefore He looks at Paul's integrity in desiring others to gain a crown.

    Sometimes "election" is equated to "grace". In churches where belief in Holy Spirit is not taught, it is difficult to believe that we can ever please God.
     
  5. Arc F1

    Arc F1 Let the righteous man arise from slumber Supporter

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    God would have known that person was going to be saved ahead of time. We may not know what our destiny is but God does.
     
  6. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    What about wanting to know the truth? If someone who is not God's elect wants to know the truth, are you saying that God would refuse to show it to him and get him saved? Everybody can know that there is a God by seeing how amazing and complex the world is.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    None of that is Faith, however. That is what I was attempting to show you. The Christian belief is that it is by Grace through Faith that we--the elect, if we want to argue it that way--come to salvation. So to be curious about the ultimate things, even to believe that there must be a God, and the hope for a life after life...none of this is Faith.

    But you ask if simply being interested in the general idea of a higher power and/or life after death wouldn't persuade God to impart Faith to such a person. I don't think we can assume that it would. If God has a plan from all eternity, and if predestination/election is true, there is no reason to assume that he's going to interrupt it.
     
  8. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is where we would get into the failure of the sinners prayer that so many protestant churches use to declare people "saved"...

    Someone praying the sinners prayer is nowhere in the Bible concerning how people become saved children of the living God by the blood of Jesus...

    As a matter of fact, the best description we have of someone becoming saved occurs as an act of God rather than an act of the will..

    In Acts of the Apostles 16:14-16 we have Lydia who, after hearing Paul's teaching, God opened her heart to recieve his message and was then baptized. In Acts of the Apostles 10:22 we have Cornelius being visited by Angels so he could be moved to contact Peter in order to hear the gospel after Peter was likewise moved by the Spirit of God to share the gospel with a Gentile.

    Pastors moved to preach, preach, and people in whom the Lord has moved and opened their hearts, recieve the Gospel message and become saved.

    Nowhere in the Bible does any of the Apostles approach salvation in the manner of these modern preachers.



    So I would examine whether someone heard, understood and recieved the Gospel of Christ in the fullness of truth in the depths of their soul, if anyone says they want to be saved.

    It's not something that can be done online, it needs face to face time.. this is why we have church, pastors, and elders... fellow Christians in fellowship with one another accessible to the lost...
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  9. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    So you are saying that some people are doomed to hell and they can do nothing about it. Doesn't sound like a loving God to me. I believe in a God who loved the whole world, not just some special elite.
     
  10. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think God hates anyone perse, He does hate sin though...

    What is your definition of world?

    The Bible defines it in 4 different ways as to what it can mean. It can mean the world as in the entire created order or cosmos, it can mean the world as in the nations (as opposed to the Jews/Jewish nation), the world as in Jews and Gentiles alike...

    Now, you seem to be defining it to mean Jews and Gentiles alike, meaning every man woman and child to walk the earth...

    Which means you believe then in Universal salvation yes?

    Reformed theology rejects this. We believe it is defined in this passage as "nations" meaning God is not a respector of persons but will indeed not pass over any people group without saving some.

    That is true to what we see in real life, as well as true to how scripture sees salvation.

    For as much as the Bible defines Jesus as having come into this world as Savior, He is also bringing it under judgment for sin...
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  11. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    No, it's God's word that declares people to be saved. If you prayed the sinners prayer and you believed it, then scripture says that you're saved.

    "I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD." - Psalms 116:13

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." - John 6:47

     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You asked about someone who wants to be saved but is not one of the Elect. I answered, "If Election is the way things operate, then you'd have to be one of the elect in order to really have Faith in Christ as God and Our Lord." I said that this is the way it works, according to "the view of people who accept the concept of Election."

    We could ask if it's 'just' that you and Hitler wind up in the same heaven, but you are entitled to think of God in any way you choose and there are, of course, other people who agree with your conclusions.
     
  13. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So... Psalms 116 starts at 116:1, and this verse you quoted has a context.

    In 116:12 the Psalmist asks: "What shall I return to the LORD for all his goodness to me?"

    A question he answers by saying:

    "I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the LORD. I will fulfill my vows to the LORD in the presence of all his people."

    In total here in Psalms 116:1-14 we have the context of a desperate man begging God to save him, and God responding to his plea by offering him salvation, which the newly saved now meets with fruit! The fruit of praise, and of walking among God's people fulfilling his vows.

    What this proves is that an elect person may ask for salvation, and obtain salvation from God, and when this happens the newly saved bears fruit...

    Not a great verse for you to try and use to show me God saves anyone who asks falsely, without true faith.

    The reformed believe anyone who comes to God in true faith ARE the elect... it doesn't matter whether they know they are elect or not, Do you think Lydia in Acts 16 knew God's part in opening her heart to respond?

    No, the Apostle tells us this was the case though, because it's important for us to know how God operates in salvation. Namely, that God isn't leaving salvation to depend on man's works.
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Again, the reformed believes anyone who comes to God with true belief is one of the elect.

    The verse you quoted is not an argument about God saving someone who is not the elect of God.
     
  15. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    I agree on that one because I never claimed that a prayer without faith saves anyone. You put words in my mouth. I said that the prayer saves you if you believe it.
     
  16. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But that's not the premise of your question, which was if a non-elect person asks for salvation.

    Well, if they aren't elect then they are asking falsely...

    That's what your not getting. We believe everyone who comes to Jesus in true faith IS elect....
     
  17. Leet

    Leet Active Member

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    Everyone who desires salvation in Christ is elect, simple as that.
     
  18. JM

    JM Particular Baptist Supporter

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    People would stop asking questions in this forum if they would just read their Bibles without their traditions. They need to abandon their self centred hermeneutic as well. God doesn't revolve His plans around you or your feelings.
     
  19. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm a bit surprise no one has given the obvious answer: that's impossible.

    One major premise behind Calvinism is that humans are so corrupt that they don't want to be saved. (They may want to avoid hell, but not to submit to God.) The only reason anyone is is that God regenerates them. So a non-elect person won't want to be saved. It's not that God is preventing them, but that as someone who is not elect, they are not capable of it.
     
  20. lesliedellow

    lesliedellow Member

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    Assuming that you are not just speaking hypothetically, repentance, and a desire to do God’s will, is itself a sign of election. Somebody who was not elect certainly would not have that desire, but if you do have it, then you have good grounds for believing yourself to be amongst the elect.
     
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