What I like...

[JM]

...about the LCMS parish (I've attended twice).

Altar rails.
Kneeling to take communion (I haven't yet).
Pastor faces the altar and not the people.
Absolution! (never thought I'd enjoy that but wow).
The liturgy in general.

The Pastor's preaching is direct and short. After years of listening to Baptists and Reformed Pastors preach long winded messages I find the 20 minutes or less refreshing.

The people are nice but standoffish. I can tell they do not get many visitors.

I'm going back next Lord's Day.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Markie Boy]

I have to say, I like Lutheran thought a lot. But in looking to be like the early church, some of those things seem so foreign to me, and are some of the reasons I found Catholicism to put me off.

Altar Rails - no place in early church
Pastor not facing people - no place in early church I can find
Communion on the tongue - not early church

It's odd - Lutheran teaching on so many things lines up well, but some liturgical practices not so much to me.

 

[JM]

Yes, I understand that perspective and use to believe exactly what you posted.

 

[Markie Boy]

As someone that's just searching and willing to listen - what caused the change?

One thing I agree on - I appreciate shorter sermons. The Baptist sermon that has to be 40-45 minutes can be pretty tough to endure, and often modestly fruitful.

 

[JM]

As someone that's just searching and willing to listen - what caused the change?

One thing I agree on - I appreciate shorter sermons. The Baptist sermon that has to be 40-45 minutes can be pretty tough to endure, and often modestly fruitful.

I would say the elements in liturgy grew out of Christian practice, Christian thinking, Christian symbolism, all things that the modern person has a difficult time understanding from a modernist individualist perspective. Christianity isn't about experiencing something new every service, that's revivalism a very North American thing, it's about stepping into the "great cloud of witnesses" and worshipping God. It's not about me or you, but us. What is best for us as Christians.

Today, the Divine Service was reverent. The sermon was delivered by an 85 year old retired Pastor that preached about Jesus Christ being Lord, how every knee would bow (transgender, Socialist, men using women's washrooms) and acknowledge that Christ is Lord.

I can't say enough about the importance of liturgy and how it affects us as Christians.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[LizaMarie]

I was raised in the LCMS, became non denominational for a number of years, and returned to Lutheranism and liturgical Christianity in 1989.
I'm not good at explaining it, but I have read that the early church was already liturgical quite early on, similar to the Jewish synagogue services. Perhaps someone else can explain it better than me? I always felt that the Lutheran Church was more connected to historical
Christianity. In fact this is the reason I was inquiring into both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

 

[Markie Boy]

Agree on many points! The historical connection is part of what draws me to Lutheranism. But the teaching on important things is really big. Not subscribing to "Once Saved Always Saved" is big for me.

Tried Catholicism - too much stuff added that just isn't anywhere in the first 400 years of Christianity.
Looked at Orthodoxy and it got better - but icon veneration, and many things similar to the RCC still put me off.

Lutheranism seems similar, but with a lot of that "stuff" cleaned out. But still learning.

 

[LizaMarie]

Yes, one thing that keeps me Lutheran is the doctrine of justification. This is the major thing that keeps drawing me back. That and the fact that my children(now grown) got a great education in the Lutheran school we sent them too, and I have been involved in Sunday school VBS and our parish day school and I think WELS christian education is top notch. I love our evangelical zeal, as well. I have been looking at Orthodoxy and haven't completely ruled it out yet-but besides the distance to the nearest Orthodox parish, I'm a huge original sin kind of gal. I think it's very strong in the Bible, and although that wouldn't be a deal breaker if I had gone Orthodox, I don't understand ancestral sin-yet. If I wasn't Lutheran that's where I would likely be. I think they are right on several issues, such as allowing parish priests to marry, for example.
What I like about confessional Lutheranism is it is so Christ centered, and gospel centered, while also keeping the liturgy of the early Church.

 

[Shane R]

I'm not good at explaining it, but I have read that the early church was already liturgical quite early on, similar to the Jewish synagogue services. Perhaps someone else can explain it better than me?

Not a Lutheran author (Anglican) but a robust treatment of the subject:

Here's a book review by a layman: Book Review: “As It Is in Heaven” - The North American Anglican

 

[JM]

Agree on many points! The historical connection is part of what draws me to Lutheranism. But the teaching on important things is really big. Not subscribing to "Once Saved Always Saved" is big for me.

Tried Catholicism - too much stuff added that just isn't anywhere in the first 400 years of Christianity.
Looked at Orthodoxy and it got better - but icon veneration, and many things similar to the RCC still put me off.

Lutheranism seems similar, but with a lot of that "stuff" cleaned out. But still learning.

Friends of mine have left the Reformed church for Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy but I never understood how someone could give up justification by Christ alone through faith for candles and incense. I bounced around for a while and almost gave up on Church altogether. I wasn't a Romanist, Orthodoxy is too foreign, and Anglicanism tends to be extremely liberal. In 2019 I bought a Book of Concord and started reading it. Over the course of a few years certain doctrines I held to changed in their position of importance and emphasis, I came to see the paradoxes often held in Lutheranism to be a good thing. A retreat to mystery is a good thing. The Divine Service I now attend feels like home. I am able to remain a Protestant (I'm convinced of the 5 Solas) and have reverent worship that is anchored in history and not centered on me.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[LizaMarie]

I would say the elements in liturgy grew out of Christian practice, Christian thinking, Christian symbolism, all things that the modern person has a difficult time understanding from a modernist individualist perspective. Christianity isn't about experiencing something new every service, that's revivalism a very North American thing, it's about stepping into the "great cloud of witnesses" and worshipping God. It's not about me or you, but us. What is best for us as Christians.

Today, the Divine Service was reverent. The sermon was delivered by an 85 year old retired Pastor that preached about Jesus Christ being Lord, how every knee would bow (transgender, Socialist, men using women's washrooms) and acknowledge that Christ is Lord.

I can't say enough about the importance of liturgy and how it affects us as Christians.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I agree very much with this.

 

[LizaMarie]

Not a Lutheran author (Anglican) but a robust treatment of the subject:
View attachment 329753

Here's a book review by a layman: Book Review: “As It Is in Heaven” - The North American Anglican

There's another book out there as well that I read about 20 or so years ago Evangelical Is Not Enough: Worship of God in Liturgy and Sacrament: Howard, Thomas: 0008987022169: Amazon.com: Books By Thomas Howard. He was an Anglican at the time he wrote the book, I believe he may have converted to the RCC late in life.
I'll have to get that book "As it is in Heaven." One thing we confessional Lutherans don't have that I wish we did is an Episcopal formation. Some here have said our district presidents serve as bishops, even though we don't call them that.
There are literally no conservative Anglican churches anywhere close to me in the upper rural midwest. There's a Greek Orthodox Church that is closer, believe it or not.
But the doctrine of Justification is what keeps me coming back to Lutheranism.

 

[LizaMarie]

Friends of mine have left the Reformed church for Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy but I never understood how someone could give up justification by Christ alone through faith for candles and incense. I bounced around for a while and almost gave up on Church altogether. I wasn't a Romanist, Orthodoxy is too foreign, and Anglicanism tends to be extremely liberal. In 2019 I bought a Book of Concord and started reading it. Over the course of a few years certain doctrines I held to changed in their position of importance and emphasis, I came to see the paradoxes often held in Lutheranism to be a good thing. A retreat to mystery is a good thing. The Divine Service I now attend feels like home. I am able to remain a Protestant (I'm convinced of the 5 Solas) and have reverent worship that is anchored in history and not centered on me.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Yes. I highly recommend the Book of Concord.
There are low church Lutheran Churches out there that don't do liturgy(I have a friend that goes to one.) But I think Liturgy is important.

 

[JM]

Yes. I highly recommend the Book of Concord.
There are low church Lutheran Churches out there that don't do liturgy(I have a friend that goes to one.) But I think Liturgy is important.

Liturgy sealed the deal for me.

 

[Markie Boy]

Friends of mine have left the Reformed church for Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy but I never understood how someone could give up justification by Christ alone through faith for candles and incense. I bounced around for a while and almost gave up on Church altogether. I wasn't a Romanist, Orthodoxy is too foreign, and Anglicanism tends to be extremely liberal. In 2019 I bought a Book of Concord and started reading it. Over the course of a few years certain doctrines I held to changed in their position of importance and emphasis, I came to see the paradoxes often held in Lutheranism to be a good thing. A retreat to mystery is a good thing. The Divine Service I now attend feels like home. I am able to remain a Protestant (I'm convinced of the 5 Solas) and have reverent worship that is anchored in history and not centered on me.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Agree - I don't see why some leave protestantism and go RCC or Orthodox, and overlook Lutheranism. The sheer volume of extra "stuff" that was mandatory belief, to be in the fold and saved as a Catholic when I was there, is overwhelming. Stuff that did not exist in the first 400 years.

And I found the average catholic parish to be very liberal. The strict Latin ones less so - but they REALLY focus on the "extra stuff". Was at a Latin parish one time and I think they had either 7 BIG statues of Mary on the wall at the front of the church, and one tiny statue of Jesus off to the side.

I actually fount the average parish that's a bit liberal, made more sense than the strict Latin that seems to go way over the top on Mary and the "extra stuff".

 

[JM]

Agree - I don't see why some leave protestantism and go RCC or Orthodox, and overlook Lutheranism. The sheer volume of extra "stuff" that was mandatory belief, to be in the fold and saved as a Catholic when I was there, is overwhelming. Stuff that did not exist in the first 400 years.

And I found the average catholic parish to be very liberal. The strict Latin ones less so - but they REALLY focus on the "extra stuff". Was at a Latin parish one time and I think they had either 7 BIG statues of Mary on the wall at the front of the church, and one tiny statue of Jesus off to the side.

I actually fount the average parish that's a bit liberal, made more sense than the strict Latin that seems to go way over the top on Mary and the "extra stuff".

I agree. Two big sticking points are Orthodox insistence on Icons and the Roman dogmas about Mary. Icons are a late accretion (8th century) and the Marian dogmas are less than 200 years old!

see the work of Gavin Ortlund and the Other Paul on YouTube.

 

[Markie Boy]

I agree. Two big sticking points are Orthodox insistence on Icons and the Roman dogmas about Mary. Icons are a late accretion (8th century) and the Marian dogmas are less than 200 years old!

see the work of Gavin Ortlund and the Other Paul on YouTube.

Spot on! I listened to Gavin on both of those topics, and he gives a pretty much air tight case that both are late additions. Those alone are enough to keep me out of the RCC or Orthodoxy. But they paint the larger picture that both organizations feel they have the right to add things that are not Apostolic.

 

[JM]

Right, and often the case is presented that, "you are wrong because you disagree with me", but they cannot make a positive case from scripture only make an argument from authority.

 

[Markie Boy]

JM - sounds like we have a lot in common. If I can ask - are you in a Lutheran church now?

I have recently left the RCC, tried a local non-denom. It's good and conservative, and they don't even do the OSAS stuff. But it's all modern, no tradition or historical parts that I see.

I like the local baptist church - pretty traditional, but a huge OSAS perspective that flavors everything it seems, so not for me.

So I have temporarily given up on finding a church. There are three Lutheran churches in town - LCMS, NALC and Wels. But they all seem sort of old, not growing or reaching out, and not very vibrant.

The Baptists and non-denom on the other hand are pretty full of life, younger people, and reaching out.

What about liturgy attracted you?

 

[JM]

I was tired with the country club style Christianity where it was more like social club than a church. You may know the country club style where the people are talking super loud in the ‘auditorium’ about the game that’s on after the service and they keep talking when the Pastor steps to the pulpit and he has to ask repeatedly for people to take their seats and quiet down. Where golf is more important than reading the Bible because ultimately it’s about relationships with people not Christ.

In North America we have been heavily influenced by two forms of theology; revivalism and pietism. Lutherans have also been influenced by these two streams but it seems, at least to me, the tide is turning back to Confessional Lutheranism and away from these destructive ahistorical movements. Revivalism places the supernatural within the heart. So if you ‘feel’ something you are being ‘spiritual’ and if you don’t ‘feel anything’ it's not spiritual. The supernatural doesn’t really take place outside of ourselves, ‘bread and wine can’t be the body and blood of Christ’ they say because the supernature element of faith only takes place in the heart. In the country club Baptist church the fruit of the Spirit has little to do with the spiritual and more to do with the practical. Attending Wednesday Night Kids Club, online Zoom Prayer Group, etc all become sacraments in a sense.

Pietism reinforces the revivalism so common in Western Christianity. ‘Just me and my Bible’ or ‘why would you belong to a Church with someone’s name on it?’ as if Lutherans are the ‘new’ comers and non-denominational churches resemble the early historical church. Pietism also allows someone to navel gaze, to focus on themselves and their personal situation, it’s very subjective. Another example of pietism is the long list of unwritten unscriptural rules; ‘you shouldn’t consume alcohol!’ Well, why? How does having a glass of wine affect my salvation? Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox, and Roman Catholics all see the objective truth of Christ’s free gift of salvation through faith found in the sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s Supper (and absolution). Christ alone saves you so stop looking at your works, stop judging your neighbour, confess your sins and receive absolution. Receive the medicine for sin; THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST trusting in Him alone to save.

Liturgy preserve the past, connects us with and to ‘the great cloud of witnesses,’ maintains order, removes the subjective nature of personal experience and places the literal Body and Blood of Christ in our mists by the Word.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

PS: I would recommend ‘Has American Christianity Failed’ by Wolfmueller and ‘The way of salvation in the Lutheran church’ by Gerberding. The scholastic Lutherans did an overview using Wolfmueller’s book that I will link below.


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ-flphJsrBhwuwlnoR_hsJj2fk2M3ojD