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What holds the Atom together?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by tacoman528, Feb 5, 2003.

  1. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know how to express myself properly to Tacoman. Hopefully he will read this and think about it.
     
  2. MartinM

    MartinM GondolierAce

    +239
    Atheist
    Engaged
    We don't need to go as far as electron capture to find electrons in the nucleus - it happens all the time. But it has nothing to do with the orbit decaying - it is a simple consequence of the fact that the probability density of a typical electron orbital is non-zero even within the nucleus.
     
  3. MartinM

    MartinM GondolierAce

    +239
    Atheist
    Engaged
    Ah! An optimist ;)

    Well, we can but hope.
     
  4. tacoman528

    tacoman528 Member

    106
    +0
    So then what happens to the atom when the electron crashes into it?
     
  5. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    It would depend on the circumstances, I would imagine. To be honest, I am not sure of all the implications.

    I am sure someone else can answer this, although I will look up some stuff and see if I can find out anything.
     
  6. tacoman528

    tacoman528 Member

    106
    +0
    How do they know if the electron actually does crash into the nucleus?
     
  7. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    High speed collisions (close to light speed) between electrons and protons result in the proton breaking up into other particles and the electron bouncing off.

    This would be unlikely to happen in a low speed collision. I would imagine that in some instances the proton and the electron would remain locked together, although there are probably other effects.

    http://www.anl.gov/OPA/factsheets/r10-02.htm

    This looks at using electron proton collisions as a way of examining the atom. It is talking about high speed collisions.
     
  8. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    In the experiments from the above web site, they had detectors set up. Thus, they could see what path the electrons took. If they deviated a long way - bounced straight back or nearly so, for example - they must have hit something large like a proton.

    Then they could also detect for the break up of the proton, which would be confirming evidence.

    With these collisions, however, we are not talking about the collapse of an atom - simply electron proton collisions.

    As I say, I am unsure what would happen in the event of atomic collapse.
     
  9. tacoman528

    tacoman528 Member

    106
    +0
    Well of course that happens all the time, especially inside the sun. What I mean is when the electron suddenly spirals into the nucleus.
     
  10. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    I would not know what happens when an electron does that, as as far as I am aware it cannot happen unless other things are also happening.

    Others will know more than me, I am sure.
     
  11. tacoman528

    tacoman528 Member

    106
    +0
    And also,
    why, again, doesn't the nucleus fly apart because of the proton's positive charge?
     
  12. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor

    This question has been answered. It is because of the strong nuclear force, which i smuch stronger than the electromagnetic force but only operates over very small distances, such as the ones in the nucleus of an atom.

    The evidence for the existence of the strong nuclear force is easy to see - watch a film of an atomic explosion.

    When we split the atom, we release this energy.
     
  13. Joe_Sixpack

    Joe_Sixpack Member

    104
    +4
    Atheist
    "And also,
    why, again, doesn't the nucleus fly apart because of the proton's positive charge?"

    Quantum chromodynamics answers this question quite well - check it out sometime. Murray Gell-Man got the Nobel prize for coming up with it - you might learn something about it if you read up on it.

    BTW - gluons have been detected in particle accelerators - they are carrier particles of the strong nuclear force (also called the chromo or color force) and are interchanged between quarks that make up protons and neutrons.
     
  14. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

    +373
    Methodist
    Private
    This is the worst of god-of-the-gaps.  It is completely antithetical to orthodox Christian theology because you have just reduced God to a material creature to keep atoms together.

    Others have given you the scientific answers (although you do not accept them), below is the theological fallacy of your position.  This is one of the biggest dangers of creationism: total ignorance of theology and the failure to see what their ham-handed attempts to "prove" God do to theology.

    "There are profound biblical objections to such a "God-of-the-gaps," as this understanding of God's relation to the universe has come to be called.  By "gap" it is meant that no member or members of the universe can be found to account for regularly occurring phenomana in nature.  God is inserted in the gaps which could be occupied by members of the universe.  This is theologically improper because God, as creator of the universe, is not a member of the universe.  God can never properly be used in scientific accounts, which are formulated in terms of the relations between members of the universe, because that would reduce God to the status of a creature.  According to a Christian conception of God as creator of a universe that is rational through and through, there are no missing relations between the members of nature.  If, in our study of nature, we run into what seems to be an instance of a connection missing between members of nature, the Christian doctrine of creation implies that we should keep looking for one. ...But, according to the doctrine of creation, we are never to postulate God as the *immediate*  cause of any *regular* [emphases in original] occurrence in nature.  In time, a "God of the gaps" was seen to be bad science as well as bad theology.  Science now is programamatically committed to a view of nature in which there are no gaps between members of the universe."

    Diogenes Allen, Christian Belief in a Postmodern World, pp. 45-46.
     
  15. lucaspa

    lucaspa Legend

    +373
    Methodist
    Private
    http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/theory/stronginteract.html  be sure to use the link at the bottom to "Experiments"

    http://www.schoolscience.co.uk/content/4/physics/particles/particlesmodel2.html

    http://aether.lbl.gov/www/tour/elements/stellar/strong/strong.html

    http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae268.cfm

    You might want to join this last link, Tacoman, and then you can ask your questions to a physicist and get your detailed answers.
     
  16. webboffin

    webboffin NOT APPLICABLE

    +2
    What keeps things around atoms spinning? Is it perpetual motion energy or something?
     
  17. Joe_Sixpack

    Joe_Sixpack Member

    104
    +4
    Atheist
    "What keeps things around atoms spinning? Is it perpetual motion energy or something?"

    Depends what you mean by "spinning?" This is another example of using a macro-world term to describe a quantum-level event in a simple way. The problem with such analogies is that they always break down at some point.
     
  18. Morat

    Morat Untitled One

    +2
    Atheist
    I once saw a guy on Leno with a "Spin Battery", where he claimed to have stored energy in the "spinning" electrons and sucked it out when needed.

    Amusingly, it might indeed be possible to have a spin battery. But it would not work anything like described by our putative inventer.

    Of course, upon testing, it turns out he was augmenting his "spin battery" with regular ole' normal batteries.
     
  19. Taffsadar

    Taffsadar Followerof Quincy

    627
    +10
    Atheist

    Do you know what a Neutron is? If not check out what they are made of and you will find the answer.
     
  20. chickenman

    chickenman evil unamerican

    +6
    God holds atoms together

    so the energy that is released when atoms undergo fission is really god's energy

    so......we don't have to worry about iraq building nuclear weapons, because they're trying to unleash god's energy, and clearly, being non-christian infidels, god won't allow that to happen?

    YAY! we don't have to invade iraq!
     
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