What happens to the one who commits suicide?

[Neogaia777]

@Zaha Torte

James 2:13

God Bless.

 

[Sabertooth]

What happens to the one who commits suicide?

We do not know, but it is a terrible risk, eternally-speaking.
Your last act would be a murder that you were unable to repent of.

It is a question comparable to the eternal outcomes for Ananais & Sapphira.
Neither is a chance that I would be willing to take nor recommend.

 

[partinobodycular]

We do not know, but it is a terrible risk, eternally-speaking.
Your last act would be a murder that you were unable to repent of.

The first thing that I need, is for someone to show me where the bible equates suicide with murder. Otherwise I'm going to judge suicide, not as the taking of an innocent life, but as the sacrificing of an innocent life, and therein the bible gives me one very clear example of how God views it.

 

[Sabertooth]

The first thing that I need, is for someone to show me where the bible equates suicide with murder. Otherwise I'm going to judge suicide, not as the taking of an innocent life, but as the sacrificing of an innocent life, and therein the bible gives me one very clear example of how God views it.

Not all suicide is murder (just like not all homicide is murder), but these kinds of threads are usually asking about it in its murderous form.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

At the end of the day, these sorts of discussions can’t be answered without doing a deep dive on some subjective and arbitrary answers to some complex matters. Helping somebody you know is suicidal and, if they lose their battle and ultimately die, praying for them and those they leave behind. This is where God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge reigns and we have zero business judging in his name or anybody else’s.

 

[johansen]

At the end of the day, these sorts of discussions can’t be answered without doing a deep dive on some subjective and arbitrary answers to some complex matters. Helping somebody you know is suicidal and, if they lose their battle and ultimately die, praying for them and those they leave behind. This is where God’s infinite wisdom and knowledge reigns and we have zero business judging in his name or anybody else’s.

well, we simply don't know, since no one has come back from suicide to talk about it.

there is plenty of both good and bad near death experiences from suicide attempts, but christians prefer to retell the bad stories for suicide and the good ones for the non suicide. turns out there are both, just harder to find.

as for purgatory, my god, is this a christian forum?

 

[Zaha Torte]

What's that got to do with it?

Not everyone who asks for forgiveness will receive it.

The Lord said that only those who do the Father's will be forgiven and enter the Kingdom.

Or do you believe that suicide is the Father's will for His children?

How do you know what happens at the point of death?
How do you know that someone may not take an overdose/jump off a bridge, survive - at least for a while - then die from their injuries?

I don't need to know these things to know the Word of God.

Forgiveness hinges on having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acting on it.

Being consumed by hopelessness to the point of suicide is not having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acting on it.

Oh so you're telling God what he can, and can't forgive now?
Good luck with that one.

God has clearly stated through the Lord Jesus Christ how He decides to forgive us.

I am sorry if you are offended, but the Word of God does not support what you are sharing.

 

[Strong in Him]

Not everyone who asks for forgiveness will receive it.

I don't believe that.
Jesus died for all; everyone who asks for forgiveness will receive it.

The Lord said that only those who do the Father's will be forgiven and enter the Kingdom.

John 6:40 - it is God's will that we believe in Jesus and receive eternal life.

What do you claim we have to DO to be forgiven?

Or do you believe that suicide is the Father's will for His children?

No.
But neither is depression or mental illness. Yet both exist in this fallen world.

I don't need to know these things to know the Word of God.

You need to know those things before you can make a judgment that they haven't happened.
The Bible does not teach about suicide, whether or not it is forgivable and what happens at the point of death.

Forgiveness hinges on having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acting on it.

If someone confesses a sin, says sorry and asks Jesus to forgive them, they can trust that he has, 1 John 1:9.
They don't have to feel forgiven, they don't have to do anything to show that they have been forgiven. Neither is forgiveness conditional upon certain actions.

Being consumed by hopelessness to the point of suicide is not having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acting on it.

But that is only your definition of forgiveness, not what God's word says.

True, clinical depression is so much more than feeling hopeless. It's something to do with the chemicals in the brain, for a start, and is just as much an illness as measles is.
I hope that if someone was physically ill with measles, cancer, Covid or whatever you wouldn't condemn them for not trusting in Jesus and acting on it. I hope that if/when you are ill you rest and do what the doctors say, and don't beat yourself up for not trusting in Jesus.
Depression is the same. And to dismiss the person as not having faith in Jesus and acting on it is unhelpful - to say the least.

God has clearly stated through the Lord Jesus Christ how He decides to forgive us.

God forgives us through Jesus, who died to make forgiveness, and reconciliation with the Father, possible.
It is not correct to say that someone has confessed but they need to DO something to prove that they are worthy of forgiveness.

I am sorry if you are offended, but the Word of God does not support what you are sharing.

The Bible does not teach whether anyone who ends their life will be forgiven.
But it does teach about a God who IS love and full of compassion. A God who, when Elijah said "I've had enough, let me die, Lord," fed him, gave him rest, gave him a new vision of his glory and then told him he still had work for him to do.
That probably wasn't even true clinical depression; just exhaustion mixed with fear.

And I'm not offended.
I just know something of the compassion, patience and love of God - plus I have several years experience of talking with suicidal people.

 

[Zaha Torte]

If you're saying that someone who takes their own life, even if severely depressed, mentally ill and believing that their family would be better of without them is going to hell, no, that's not compassionate.

The condition of Hell is divinely compassionate and merciful because the only alternative to it is utter destruction.

It could be hell for them; how would you know?

I know it is not Hell because Hell is not a subjective feeling - it is an objective condition.

It is not like a person can subjectively have cancer because they "feel" like they do. They either have it, or they don't.

Hell is when someone is suffering the penalties of their own sins and as long as we are in this world we have the opportunity to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of our sins - so it is literally impossible to suffer those things in mortality.

The Lord Jesus Christ has given us everything we need to have happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Having faith in Him and acting on it gives us hope and will always improve our lives.

How do you know that they can't cry out to God and he forgives their sins?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21;23)

And how do you know that suicides will be included in that?

I believe you are operating under a false premise about what I have said

I initially stated, "It is my understanding that suicide is akin to murder - which would require a time spent in Hell to be forgiven of."

Meaning - that some people may be required to suffer the condition of Hell for a time before they are eventually forgiven depending on the actions they decided to take while in mortality.

It is my belief that the vast majority of those who currently are or will suffer the condition of Hell will eventually be forgiven after they have suffered the penalties of their own sins because they rejected the salvation from those penalties offered them by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Only those who commit the "unpardonable sin" will be cast into the lake of fire.

Christians are not exempt from depression and mental illness. If someone were to take their own life as a result are you saying that God would condemn them to hell - eternity without him?

No - that would depend on if they committed the only unforgivable sin mentioned by the Lord.

All others will be forgiven Man.

I know Christians who have died from dementia; they could no longer worship, pray, go to church etc. If they had somehow been able to get hold of a load of tablets to end it all, or if they kept taking tablets because they had forgotten they had previously had them, are you saying God would condemn them?

I believe that Paul covered this in Romans 5:13.

"sin is not imputed when there is no law", and my understanding of this is that those who lose their mental faculties are no longer accountable for their actions - so the law is not applied, and they commit no sin.

It all depends on the circumstances - of course - but this is the general rule.

I know a Christian who had mental health problems but hardly ever missed church. Yet he is now in a very bad way in a mental health institution. Does God condemn him too?

What would God be condemning him for?

And how do you know that people who believed in him, took their own lives but were able to whisper "sorry", or "help me" before they lost consciousness will still be sent to hell?

They do not believe in Him if they take their own lives.

The Spirit of God is not one of fear. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ leads us to hope.

Forgiveness of sin requires repentance. Repentance does not happen in a moment.

He does not save us in our sins - but from our sins.

Like I said, I believe God is compassionate.

Hell is compassionate.

As you're not the judge, you have no idea who will go there and who won't.

I am not judging anyone. I am simply relaying the Word of God.

Suicide is sin. People go to Hell for committing sin.

Being a Christian is not a free pass to sin.

Oh so you're saying now that hell is temporary?

The condition of Hell is temporary for all save those who commit the unpardonable sin.

This has been my position from the beginning.

Does God send people there for correction or to scare them into repenting?

Those who suffer the condition of Hell are those who refused to repent.

Their probationary period has expired - their opportunities for repentance are gone.

Now they must suffer the penalties of their own sins.

It is not about correction or repentance - but justice.

We all justly deserve to suffer the pains of Hell and then to be cast off forever - that is justice.

However - through the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus Christ - His merits and grace - we can be forgiven in this life through repentance.

And if we decide not to be forgiven in this life - He still provides us a means to avoid destruction by having us suffer the penalties of our own sins in Hell.

As long as we did not commit the unpardonable sin (which is a difficult sin to commit) then we can return home.

All of this is made possible by the Lord Jesus Christ and His infinite Sacrifice.

Does he review the situation from time to time or check his notes and say "no, you didn't commit the unpardonable sin; you can come out now?"

It is my understanding from Revelation 20 that they will remain there until the time of Judgment.

If either of the above, how do you know that someone who had taken their own lives and been sent there (according to your beliefs), is not now in heaven?

I know they are not in Heaven now because the Resurrection and Judgment has not taken place yet.

 

[Zaha Torte]

@Zaha Torte

James 2:13

God Bless.

Would you mind explaining what you meant by sharing this?

 

[Neogaia777]

Would you mind explaining what you meant by sharing this?

You don't understand the scripture?

Why am I not surprised.

Well, in this case here, although it applies to every case in general, it means the human being who does not show or have compassion (mercy) on or for his fellow human being for anything, in this case for someone committing suicide, etc, it means that when it comes time for God to judge him, the He will not show compassion or mercy towards him when God judges him, etc.

And beyond that, you are also not the judge either also, etc. And since scripture does not get specific about this, and also does not say it's the unpardonable or unforgiveable sin, etc, then you should at least have your heart open to the fact that God might forgive someone for such a thing, or for committing suicide, etc. For another human being not to do that, is not only making themselves God, but they will also recieve their judgement in the way that they have judged, and if that is without any compassion or mercy toward their fellow man, then theirs from God will also be without compassion or mercy from God, etc.

Is that "clear enough" for you, or do I need to elaborate further, etc?

Because I will some more yet, if you really want me to, etc?

Because I do have even more points I can make about it, and what you are right now doing here, that I can make about it, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Strong in Him]

The condition of Hell is divinely compassionate and merciful because the only alternative to it is utter destruction.

In your view.

I know it is not Hell because Hell is not a subjective feeling - it is an objective condition.

Who said anything about a feeling?
I'm talking about a person's life being hell - abusive upbringing/debt/parents or husband alcoholic/homeless or unemployed and mentally ill as well. Someone in that state - and they do exist - may well either not believe in God, or believe that he has deserted them when they need him.
For them, they will be in hell already.

Hell is when someone is suffering the penalties of their own sins and as long as we are in this world we have the opportunity to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of our sins - so it is literally impossible to suffer those things in mortality.

Hell is being without God for eternity; when a person has deliberately rejected him, many times, they are dead and forgiveness is no longer possible.
You try talking to a person in the state I described, above, about their sins. I am pretty sure that either they won't believe you, or they won't be interested. If I were in such a bad place that I was literally struggling to survive and someone said to me "repent of your sins so that God can forgive you", I don't think I'd be interested. I'd most likely be angry that God wasn't helping me or had allowed me to be in that situation.

The Lord Jesus Christ has given us everything we need to have happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.

Jesus came to bring life - fullness of life.
He did not guarantee happiness.

Having faith in Him and acting on it gives us hope and will always improve our lives.

It depends on how you define "improve our lives."
There are Christians who are ill and disabled who have not been healed. Neither are Christians exempt from illness, depression, homelessness, addiction etc.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:40.

I believe you are operating under a false premise about what I have said

I initially stated, "It is my understanding that suicide is akin to murder - which would require a time spent in Hell to be forgiven of."

I know, and that's what I disagree with.
Spending "some time in hell" suggests that it is like purgatory; a "halfway house" until the person has repented or been sufficiently punished. Then, at a later date, the Lord will let them out or say they have been punished enough.

Meaning - that some people may be required to suffer the condition of Hell for a time before they are eventually forgiven depending on the actions they decided to take while in mortality.

That may be how you have interpreted it; doesn't mean it's correct.

It is my belief that the vast majority of those who currently are or will suffer the condition of Hell will eventually be forgiven after they have suffered the penalties of their own sins because they rejected the salvation from those penalties offered them by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your belief is noted.

No - that would depend on if they committed the only unforgivable sin mentioned by the Lord.

The unforgiveable sin is when someone knows that something is from God - healing or teaching - yet they credit the devil for it, Mark 3:22-30.
In this passage, the Pharisees said that Jesus was casting out demons by the power of the devil. Jesus replied that Satan cannot drive out Satan. He then said that whoever blasphemed the Holy Spirit was guilty of an eternal sin. Mark then commented that Jesus said that because people were saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit.

Sometimes people think they have committed the unforgivable sin when they haven't - look on the advice, or other, sections of this forum.

"sin is not imputed when there is no law", and my understanding of this is that those who lose their mental faculties are no longer accountable for their actions - so the law is not applied, and they commit no sin.

Ah - so someone who is severely mentally ill/impaired and takes their own life due to that mental condition, has not sinned?
Good.

What would God be condemning him for?

According to you, for "allowing himself to be completely overtaken by hopelessness", post #47.

They do not believe in Him if they take their own lives.

You've just said that those who lose their mental faculties are no longer responsible for their actions and therefore don't sin.
Now you're making it about unbelief.
Don't you realise that suicide is due to mental illness/impairment?

Forgiveness of sin requires repentance. Repentance does not happen in a moment.

We repent then we are forgiven.
Forgiveness does not depend on whether we do enough to show that we are sufficiently sorry.

I should think that you can never sing/have been able to sing the hymn, "To God be the glory" then?
"And every offender who truly believes,
that moment, from Jesus, a pardon receives".

I am not judging anyone. I am simply relaying the Word of God.

You are if you are saying "if they are consumed by hopelessness they aren't trusting in him".

Suicide is sin. People go to Hell for committing sin.

Not only is that a judgment, it contradicts what you have previously said about people not sinning if they have diminished mental faculties.

Being a Christian is not a free pass to sin.

Never said it was.
No one takes their own life for the fun of it.

The condition of Hell is temporary for all save those who commit the unpardonable sin.

This has been my position from the beginning.

I know. I disagree.

Those who suffer the condition of Hell are those who refused to repent.

Their probationary period has expired - their opportunities for repentance are gone.

Now they must suffer the penalties of their own sins.

Where did Jesus, or the Apostles, ever say "repent of your sins. If you choose not to you will go to hell. Don't worry, it will only be for a short time unless you have committed the unpardonable sin, in which case - oh dear.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Your response to my question was about as much as I expected from someone who quoted an irrelevant Bible verse out of context.

You don't understand the scripture?

I do understand the scripture you shared - which is why I asked you to share what you meant by sharing it.

Why am I not surprised.

Your lack of reading comprehension or attention to detail - of both the verse you referenced and my question - is very surprising and you will be further surprised when I explain what the verse you referenced actually means.

Well, in this case here, although it applies to every case in general, it means the human being who does not show or have compassion (mercy) on or for his fellow human being for anything, in this case for someone committing suicide, etc, it means that when it comes time for God to judge him, the He will not show compassion or mercy towards him when God judges him, etc.

The verse you referenced was James telling the faithful members of the Lord's Church to not be respecters of persons - to treat all men with equal respect.

In regard to the topic of suicide - I feel that the verses immediately preceding and following the one you referenced shed some insight,

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:9-12)

The same Being that commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves also commands us not to murder - this includes ourselves.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:14-18)

A person who commits murder - while also professing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - is a person whose faith is dead - for his works are not those of Christ or the will of the Father.

His faith alone cannot save him.

Those who would murder themselves are equally dead as to their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - for they have proven by their works that they have no faith in Him.

You tried to wrest this scripture to make it say what you wanted - without giving thought to what it actually meant.

You did not read all the words of James - or apply the words of the Lord as well - to come to a better understanding - so I would encourage you to read the entire chapter at least.

You also presupposed that I had judged others - when all I did was relay the Word of God.

I only have authority over my own actions - and some authority over those within my sphere of influence - but ultimately, we are judged of our works.

I have no authority to offer mercy to those who decided to reject the hope given us by the merits and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since they rejected Him and His sacrifice - they will be required to pay their own debts in Hell for a time before they are forgiven.

And beyond that, you are also not the judge either also, etc.

I have judged no one. It is God who judges.

And since scripture does not get specific about this, and also does not say it's the unpardonable or unforgiveable sin, etc, then you should at least have your heart open to the fact that God might forgive someone for such a thing, or for committing suicide, etc.

If you read any of my posts preceding this one you would have seen that I clearly stated that suicide is NOT the unpardonable or unforgiveable sin.

I also stated that as long as a person does not commit the unpardonable or unforgiveable sin all their sins will eventually be forgiven them - yet they may be required to suffer for a time in Hell for that to happen.

The Lord also clearly taught that not everyone that cries for forgiveness will receive it - for they must also be doing the will of the Father.

And as James pointed out we cannot have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without appropriate works.

Those who commit suicide are those who do not have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - they have rejected the gift of life given them by God and all the hope promised by the Lord Jesus Christ - therefore since they rejected the Lord and His Sacrifice - they will be required to suffer the penalties of their own sins in Hell until they have paid the "uttermost farthing" - then their debt will be forgiven.

For another human being not to do that, is not only making themselves God, but they will also recieve their judgement in the way that they have judged, and if that is without any compassion or mercy toward their fellow man, then theirs from God will also be without compassion or mercy from God, etc.

That literally makes no sense.

If a person commits suicide - I no longer have the opportunity to show them any mercy as James described.

I no longer have the opportunity to treat them as myself - this is one of the consequences of suicide.

We are all instruments in the hand of the Lord - to bring about His purposes - and to kill oneself is to deny the Lord another instrument He would have used to bring others to understanding and healing.

Had they not done what they had - then the Lord could have reached out to them through His faithful servants - those who would have loved them as they do themselves - and they all would have been edified and healed.

Yet - they decided that they no longer wished to receive His mercies or any opportunity to be His instrument.

They decided that their will was more important than His. They refused to submit to God as they should.

What would the world be like if the Lord had decided that His life was all that mattered, and He took action to avoid His Sacrifice?

Where would the world be without the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus Christ?

God would not command us to be long-suffering and patient and then claim to show mercy to those who reject His counsel as well as the promises made by His Son.

Is that "clear enough" for you, or do I need to elaborate further, etc?

You have clearly demonstrated your lack of understanding - but I forgive you.

I would encourage you to read the words of the Lord and James - compare them - and to pray to the Father in the name of Christ - in all humility and sincerity - for the Holy Spirit to attend to your heart and mind so you can learn the truth of His words.

For your attempt at ad hominem against me was also an attempt to justify the sin of suicide.

I pray that you come to the knowledge of the truth before you start telling the vulnerable and ignorant that they have a free pass to commit sin.

Because I will some more yet, if you really want me to, etc?

I believe you will be too busy reading and praying.

Because I do have even more points I can make about it, and what you are right now doing here, that I can make about it, etc.

God Bless.

I am sharing the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ - who may not condemn us (for we condemn ourselves) - but like the woman taken in adultery He still tells us to "go and sin no more".

Suicide is a very grievous sin. One that the Lord would not have us commit. One that will require us to suffer for.

Any claim otherwise is an attempt to justify sin and will lead to many ignorant and vulnerable people taking their own lives.

Please study this matter - pray about it - work it out in your mind and heart - repent of this thing - come to Christ with full purpose of heart so that you can tell everyone that we should rejoice - that there is no need to sorrow - for Christ has overcome the world.

 

[Neogaia777]

Your response to my question was about as much as I expected from someone who quoted an irrelevant Bible verse out of context.

I do understand the scripture you shared - which is why I asked you to share what you meant by sharing it.

Your lack of reading comprehension or attention to detail - of both the verse you referenced and my question - is very surprising and you will be further surprised when I explain what the verse you referenced actually means.

The verse you referenced was James telling the faithful members of the Lord's Church to not be respecters of persons - to treat all men with equal respect.

In regard to the topic of suicide - I feel that the verses immediately preceding and following the one you referenced shed some insight,

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:9-12)

The same Being that commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves also commands us not to murder - this includes ourselves.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:14-18)

A person who commits murder - while also professing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - is a person whose faith is dead - for his works are not those of Christ or the will of the Father.

His faith alone cannot save him.

Those who would murder themselves are equally dead as to their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - for they have proven by their works that they have no faith in Him.

You tried to wrest this scripture to make it say what you wanted - without giving thought to what it actually meant.

You did not read all the words of James - or apply the words of the Lord as well - to come to a better understanding - so I would encourage you to read the entire chapter at least.

You also presupposed that I had judged others - when all I did was relay the Word of God.

I only have authority over my own actions - and some authority over those within my sphere of influence - but ultimately, we are judged of our works.

I have no authority to offer mercy to those who decided to reject the hope given us by the merits and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since they rejected Him and His sacrifice - they will be required to pay their own debts in Hell for a time before they are forgiven.

I have judged no one. It is God who judges.

If you read any of my posts preceding this one you would have seen that I clearly stated that suicide is NOT the unpardonable or unforgiveable sin.

I also stated that as long as a person does not commit the unpardonable or unforgiveable sin all their sins will eventually be forgiven them - yet they may be required to suffer for a time in Hell for that to happen.

The Lord also clearly taught that not everyone that cries for forgiveness will receive it - for they must also be doing the will of the Father.

And as James pointed out we cannot have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without appropriate works.

Those who commit suicide are those who do not have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - they have rejected the gift of life given them by God and all the hope promised by the Lord Jesus Christ - therefore since they rejected the Lord and His Sacrifice - they will be required to suffer the penalties of their own sins in Hell until they have paid the "uttermost farthing" - then their debt will be forgiven.

That literally makes no sense.

If a person commits suicide - I no longer have the opportunity to show them any mercy as James described.

I no longer have the opportunity to treat them as myself - this is one of the consequences of suicide.

We are all instruments in the hand of the Lord - to bring about His purposes - and to kill oneself is to deny the Lord another instrument He would have used to bring others to understanding and healing.

Had they not done what they had - then the Lord could have reached out to them through His faithful servants - those who would have loved them as they do themselves - and they all would have been edified and healed.

Yet - they decided that they no longer wished to receive His mercies or any opportunity to be His instrument.

They decided that their will was more important than His. They refused to submit to God as they should.

What would the world be like if the Lord had decided that His life was all that mattered, and He took action to avoid His Sacrifice?

Where would the world be without the suffering and death of the Lord Jesus Christ?

God would not command us to be long-suffering and patient and then claim to show mercy to those who reject His counsel as well as the promises made by His Son.

You have clearly demonstrated your lack of understanding - but I forgive you.

I would encourage you to read the words of the Lord and James - compare them - and to pray to the Father in the name of Christ - in all humility and sincerity - for the Holy Spirit to attend to your heart and mind so you can learn the truth of His words.

For your attempt at ad hominem against me was also an attempt to justify the sin of suicide.

I pray that you come to the knowledge of the truth before you start telling the vulnerable and ignorant that they have a free pass to commit sin.

I believe you will be too busy reading and praying.

I am sharing the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ - who may not condemn us (for we condemn ourselves) - but like the woman taken in adultery He still tells us to "go and sin no more".

Suicide is a very grievous sin. One that the Lord would not have us commit. One that will require us to suffer for.

Any claim otherwise is an attempt to justify sin and will lead to many ignorant and vulnerable people taking their own lives.

Please study this matter - pray about it - work it out in your mind and heart - repent of this thing - come to Christ with full purpose of heart so that you can tell everyone that we should rejoice - that there is no need to sorrow - for Christ has overcome the world.

Yeah, I know this might surprise you, but I don't really care what you think, etc.

And I know your "type" as well, and I think that is way more than evident and is being fully demonstrated here, etc.

And I always think it's very baffling to me how your kind or type always thinks that they are right now truly saved at present, etc.

I come on here when I am bored, but still don't like to waste my time even when I am bored with an entirely pointless and fruitless conversation, which is what I think this is becoming, and where this is going with you here, etc.

So, anyway, I will pray that you will one day come to a full knowledge of the whole truth, and will one day will get or be truly saved, ok.

But I see no point in continuing this conversation with you any longer at present, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Yeah, I know this might surprise you, but I don't really care what you think, etc.

And I know your "type" as well, and I think that is way more than evident and is being fully demonstrated here, etc.

And I always think it's very baffling to me how your kind or type always thinks that they are right now truly saved at present, etc.

I come on here when I am bored, but still don't like to waste my time even when I am bored with an entirely pointless and fruitless conversation, which is what I think this is becoming, and where this is going with you here, etc.

So, anyway, I will pray that you will one day come to a full knowledge of the whole truth, and will one day will get or be truly saved, ok.

But I see no point in continuing this conversation with you any longer at present, etc.

God Bless.

It is disappointing that all you have to offer is ad hominem and your word only.

The words of the Lord Jesus Christ and His brother James agree with what I have been saying.

You don't have to agree - but you should at least have more to offer than ad hominem and your word only.

But you don't - and that is very disappointing.

Adieu.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is disappointing that all you have to offer is ad hominem and your word only.

The words of the Lord Jesus Christ and His brother James agree with what I have been saying.

You don't have to agree - but you should at least have more to offer than ad hominem and your word only.

But you don't - and that is very disappointing.

Adieu.

Have fun talking to yourself.

God Bless.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I would be very surprised and humbled if you actually read this entire response and gave a meaningful response in kind.

In your view.

So - in your view - execution is more compassionate than any other form of punishment?

Who said anything about a feeling?

You. If it is a subjective condition decided upon by those who suffer it - it is a feeling.

I'm talking about a person's life being hell - abusive upbringing/debt/parents or husband alcoholic/homeless or unemployed and mentally ill as well.

My mother grew up in some of the worst conditions laden with neglect, abuse, alcohol fueled rages, abandonment - but she is the sweetest, most caring and patient person I know.

After sharing a lot of her experiences with me - and my shock at learning about it - she told me that she had turned to God and decided not to be a victim.

The conditions of a person's life - no matter how horrible - will never be as bad as the actual pains of Hell and can never justify sin - like suicide.

As long as we remain alive - we have the opportunity to rely more on the Lord Jesus Christ - and by putting on Christ our burdens can be made light.

Someone in that state - and they do exist - may well either not believe in God, or believe that he has deserted them when they need him.

Both beliefs are untrue.

God exists, He love us, and He always has His hand outstretched toward us through the merits and grace of His Son - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Claiming that there is ever justification for suicide is to deny the promises of God.

For them, they will be in hell already.

Only a person who has not suffered the penalties of their sins in Hell would ever make that claim.

The condition of Hell is not a subjective feeling. As I said before - you either have cancer or you don't. It is not up to you.

Claiming that anyone's life could be "Hell" here in mortality is a claim that God is not here - but He is - the Lord Jesus Christ came down and dwelt with Man.

And my mother - and many other faithful people who decided not to be victims by relying on the Lord Jesus Christ - are proof that the truth sets us free, and we can be happy - even in horrible conditions.

Hell is being without God for eternity; when a person has deliberately rejected him, many times, they are dead and forgiveness is no longer possible.

You are partially correct - but I believe you are confusing the condition of Hell with the "lake of fire" that is reserved for those "sons of perdition".

The condition of Hell is separation from God - spiritual death - but it is clear from Revelation that that condition does not necessarily last for eternity.

The Lord Jesus Christ claimed that He was in possession of the keys to both Hell and death (Revelation 1:18) - which begs the question - "Why hold onto the keys to a place or condition that is meant to be eternal?"

Isn't that a "lock them up and throw away the key" scenario?

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:10-15)

Notice the timeline of events and the distinction between the different states of existence and places.

After reading verse 15 - answer this question, "If those who went to Hell were consigned there for eternity - why then are they Judged after they were in Hell? Hasn't their Judgment already taken place?"

Let me spell it all out for you.

There are only three places mentioned in the scriptures that the spirits of the dead go after physical death - but before the Judgment - Paradise, Prison and Hell.

Before the Judgment - there will be a universal Resurrection of the dead - for the small and great - and the spirits from Paradise, Prison and Hell (all the spirits of Mankind) will be reunited with their physical bodies - only they shall now be glorified.

This is the salvation from the dead promised to all Mankind by the Lord Jesus Christ and is only possible because He conquered the grave.

Then all of us will be Judged by God and the books (including the book of life) according to our works - which are the deeds done in the body (which is why we are reunited with our bodies beforehand because they are a testament of what we did in the body).

Then the devil, the beast, the false prophet - the conditions of death and Hell (which constitute the "second death") - as well as those whose names were not written in the book of life - will be cast into the "lake of fire".

Those cast into the "lake of fire" are those who committed the "unpardonable sin" and are also referred to as "perdition" or "sons of perdition".

And these "sons of perdition" are those who - as you said - continually denied Him until they became "past feeling" or "dead" - having put off the Holy Spirit - yet there is more to it than that (which I will get into a bit later).

Revelation clearly teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ possesses the keys to death and Hell. He obtained these things by descending below all things upon His death - even the very depths of Hell - and by raising Himself up from the grave - thus conquering death.

He possesses those keys because He intends to open Hell - to release the captive spirits there - in order for them to be Judged according to their works - and as long as they are not perdition (those who committed the unpardonable sin) - the shackles of death will also be removed from them by that same Merciful Being who set them free from Hell - because He and only He possesses the keys.

Even though suicide is not the "unpardonable sin" - according to James the brother of the Lord - "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) - so those who deny the promises of the Lord by killing themselves are "dead" as to their faith and will remain in that state until they are eventually forgiven of their sin by suffering the penalties of their sins in Hell.

You try talking to a person in the state I described, above, about their sins. I am pretty sure that either they won't believe you, or they won't be interested. If I were in such a bad place that I was literally struggling to survive and someone said to me "repent of your sins so that God can forgive you", I don't think I'd be interested. I'd most likely be angry that God wasn't helping me or had allowed me to be in that situation.

I agree that many people in our world adhere to false ideas about God and the nature of our existence.

They have inherited a fallen state - the natural man - and unless they can put off the natural man and become a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ, they will forever be carnal and devilish - only interested in the things of the body.

They don't realize that submission to God and reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ is the only means of elevating us above the cares of this world.

Those who truly believe in God and His Christ do not kill themselves - no matter what.

This is why none of the Lord's faithful disciples killed themselves despite suffering torment and persecutions for their testimonies.

They would all rather be tortured and murdered then deny their testimonies - or end their own lives - and even their gruesome executions did not cease their rejoicings.

Jesus came to bring life - fullness of life.
He did not guarantee happiness.

This is correct - but it was not my claim that the Lord Jesus Christ guaranteed happiness in this life - please pay attention.

I said, "The Lord Jesus Christ has given us everything we need to have happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come."

The Lord Jesus Christ cannot guarantee happiness in this life - because we are free creatures - free to be contradictory, illogical and hypocritical - free to sin - but that is not the same as correctly stating that He has provided us with everything we need to be happy - if we so chose.

He did.

It depends on how you define "improve our lives."
There are Christians who are ill and disabled who have not been healed. Neither are Christians exempt from illness, depression, homelessness, addiction etc.

I'm sorry - I was operating under the impression that you were also a Christian. Is this not so?

Just as you correctly pointed out that the Lord Jesus Christ does not guarantee happiness - He also does not guarantee "prosperity".

He does guarantee forgiveness of sin on condition of faith and repentance - the attendance of the Holy Spirit in response to worthy living - the avoidance of temptation to sin by adhering to His principles - the receipt of blessings in exchange for obedience to His commands - and an infinite number of other things.

True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ can be content anywhere and in any condition.

John 6:40.

Why did you feel the need to reference this verse?

Do you believe that it supersedes the verses that I shared? If so, why?

Do you believe that the Lord was incorrect or lying in the verses I shared? If so, why?

Do you believe that the verse you shared is in contention with the ones I quoted? If so, why?

Let's put these verses side-by-side so you can come to a better understanding,

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21,23)

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)

The first question I have to ask is, "When did you see the Son?" - the next is - "What does it mean to believe on Him?"

If you were in a burning building and a firefighter yelled up to you and told you to jump out the window - because he claimed that they set up a net to catch you - but you cannot see outside due to all the smoke - would you be believing in this firefighter if you refused to jump?

How these verses are properly interpreted is that all those who receive the witness of the truth of the Son of God and believe on Him are those who will do the will of the Father - for just as James said - "I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18).

They are those who will be raised up at the last day and enter the Kingdom of Heaven - not those who pay lip service only - who claim to believe in Him, yet they never trusted in His Word nor did as He instructed.

They are those who decided to remain in the burning building - never exercising their faith and finding forgiveness in this life - and they will therefore suffer the consequences of that decision - which would include suffering the penalties of their own sins in Hell.

I know, and that's what I disagree with.

So, you believe that they will be cast into the "lake of fire"?

On what scriptural basis do you claim that I am wrong at all?

Do you believe that suicide is ever the will of the Father?

If not - then would not the act of suicide be one of "works of iniquity" mentioned by the Lord in Matthew 7:23?

Does He not claim that He never knew those who do not the will of His Father and work in iniquity - and that He will command them to depart?

Where would they go?

Spending "some time in hell" suggests that it is like purgatory; a "halfway house" until the person has repented or been sufficiently punished. Then, at a later date, the Lord will let them out or say they have been punished enough.

I do not know much of anything about "Purgatory" besides the name. I speak solely from the scriptures and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 20 describes Judgment taking place after Hell - as I pointed out earlier - and Peter also claimed that the Lord went and preached to the disobedient spirits in Prison (1 Peter 3:19-20).

Of the three places that the scriptures mention that the spirits of Mankind go upon death (Paradise, Prison and Hell) - Prison seems to be a place of repentance (else why would the Lord preach to them?) and Hell is a place of temporary punishment (unless you commit the unpardonable sin).

Prison is the place where the ignorant or disobedient go - those who were simply misguided - but Hell is where the unrepentant go - those who committed heinous sins and also recognized yet still refused the Lord's calls.

That may be how you have interpreted it; doesn't mean it's correct.

Out of the two of us - I am the only one offering solid scriptural evidence for what I have shared. God's Word is clear.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Your belief is noted.

This is the only opinion of mine that I shared - which is why I prefaced it with "It is my belief..."

It is my belief only because I have no way of knowing if a person committed the unpardonable sin - yet I am convinced that very few would even have the opportunity to commit it - which is why I believe that the vast majority of those who currently are or will suffer the condition of Hell will eventually be forgiven after they have suffered the penalties of their own sins.

Everything else I shared was God's Word.

The unforgiveable sin is when someone knows that something is from God - healing or teaching - yet they credit the devil for it, Mark 3:22-30.
In this passage, the Pharisees said that Jesus was casting out demons by the power of the devil. Jesus replied that Satan cannot drive out Satan. He then said that whoever blasphemed the Holy Spirit was guilty of an eternal sin. Mark then commented that Jesus said that because people were saying that Jesus had an unclean spirit.

I do not agree with you - but I cannot fault you for coming to this conclusion. It is reasonable to assume that based on those verses alone.

Fortunately, we have the other Gospels as well as the Pauline epistles to help us come to the correct conclusion - what the "unpardonable sin" really is.

It is true that Mark 3:22-30 makes it seem like the scribes had committed the "unpardonable sin" - but when we read the same accounts from Matthew and Luke - we see enough differences to doubt that conclusion.

Matthew records the same exchange between the Lord and the Pharisees - with the Lord making the same claims about all sins being forgiven save the one - yet Matthew does not mention that sin being connected to the Lord being accused of having an unclean spirit. (Matthew 12:24-33)

Luke recorded the same claim by the Lord about the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Luke 12:10) - but his account records the exchange with the scribes and/or Pharisees happening at another time apart from when the Lord spoke on the matter (Luke 11:14-19).

Paul - in his epistle to the Hebrews - clearly explains what the "unpardonable sin" is when he said,

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 12:26-27)

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 12:38-39)

As I shared earlier - "perdition" is a reference to those who will be cast into the "lake of fire" - it comes from the Latin perdere which could mean simply "to destroy" or to "put completely to destruction".

Paul explained that those who were "perdition" - or those who were to be completely destroyed (second death/"lake of fire") - were those who had first received the knowledge of the truth - had been "enlightened" - "tasted of the "heavenly gift", the "good word of God" and "the powers of the world to come" - "patakers of the Holy Ghost" - who actually "received the knowledge of the truth" (not just belief) - yet they still decided to reject it.

It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance because they have "[crucified] to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".

They have fallen away - or have drawn back - because they would rather willfully sin than live according to the knowledge that they had obtained.

When the Lord Jesus Christ rebuked Thomas for doubting - He claimed that those who believed without seeing were "blessed" - because those were they who had received the witness from the Holy Ghost - which is surer than sight.

These "sons of perdition" are those who had received sure knowledge of God - they knew beyond any doubt the truth of Christ - yet they still decided to blaspheme against the witness of the Holy Ghost - mocking the Sacrifice of the Son of God.

Rejecting that which you know to be true - relying on Satan's delusions and lies instead of God's truth - does something to a person - to is like they have been cauterized, "past feeling" - they have "put off the Spirit of God" - to the point where they can no longer feel His influences - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.

It is as if "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" - the suffering of the Lord Jesus Christ no longer has any effect upon them.

This is why these - and only these - are those who will be cast into the "lake of fire" along with the devil, his angels, the beast and the false prophet - because they have decided to give up their place in God's Kingdom for another - and they have nothing to look forward to except "fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation".

This is why the Lord said,

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

Sometimes people think they have committed the unforgivable sin when they haven't - look on the advice, or other, sections of this forum.

I understand - but I am convinced that the vast majority of God's children will never even have the opportunity to commit this sin.

Ah - so someone who is severely mentally ill/impaired and takes their own life due to that mental condition, has not sinned?
Good.

Only if they are no longer accountable for themselves - as I said.

According to you, for "allowing himself to be completely overtaken by hopelessness", post #47.

You said, "I know a Christian who had mental health problems but hardly ever missed church. Yet he is now in a very bad way in a mental health institution. Does God condemn him too?"

I asked what God would be condemning him for.

And in response you referenced when I said, "Being consumed by hopelessness to the point of suicide is not having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acting on it." in Post #47.

I don't know if your friend has committed suicide - but as long as he lives, he can find opportunities to come closer to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I never claimed that a person having mental health issues automatically meant that they were consumed by hopelessness. That simply isn't true.

You've just said that those who lose their mental faculties are no longer responsible for their actions and therefore don't sin.
Now you're making it about unbelief.
Don't you realise that suicide is due to mental illness/impairment?

Little children and people with certain mental impairments are not accountable for themselves. Therefore, it is not possible for them to commit sin.

However - this does not mean that all children reach their age of accountability at the same rate or that all mental illnesses or impairments make a person no longer accountable.

I don't believe there is any reason to assume that everyone who commits suicide is no longer accountable for their actions.

As I said previously - there are those who have killed themselves who were no longer accountable - but those people did so without realizing what they were doing.

Someone being depressed enough to commit suicide is still full accountable if they are cognizant of themselves and what they are doing.

Anyone who actually has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - not only that He exists - but trust in His teachings and promises - would never commit suicide.

We repent then we are forgiven.
Forgiveness does not depend on whether we do enough to show that we are sufficiently sorry.

Repentance is much more than simply asking for forgiveness - do I need to quote Matthew 7:21 again?

We need to do the will of the Father. We need to become new creatures in Christ. We need to rely on Him to help change our nature.

We need to humbly accept God's chastisements. Express godly sorrow for our sins. Confess and forsake them.

The Lord Jesus Christ wants us to sacrifice our sins - for He will not save us in our sins - but from our sins.

We can be forgiven in an instant if our effort is sincere - but we must remain vigilant - doing better each day at overcoming temptation and avoiding sin.

As long as we keep trying - being aware of our mistakes and doing our best - the Lord will continue to forgive us whenever we ask.

If - however - your last act on Earth is to commit a very heinous sin - then it would need to be paid for in the life after.

I should think that you can never sing/have been able to sing the hymn, "To God be the glory" then?
"And every offender who truly believes,
that moment, from Jesus, a pardon receives".

This song works in favor of what I have been saying.

The Lord only pardons us if we "truly believe".

Those who disregard the commands and promises of the Lord Jesus Christ do not "truly believe".

You can claim all you want that you believe that firefighter - but if you never decide to jump out the window - you don't "truly believe".

Those who succumb to hopelessness do not "truly believe" in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are if you are saying "if they are consumed by hopelessness they aren't trusting in him".

"Let thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us, according as we hope in thee." (Psalm 33:22)

"Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed." (Psalm 37:3)

"Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass." (Psalm 37:7)

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)

"The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death." (Proverbs 14:32)

"He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the Lord, happy is he." (Proverbs 16:20)

"Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." (Isaiah 50:10)

"Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is." (Jeremiah 17:7)

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:17)

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." (Romans 8:24-25)

"Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality." (Romans 12:8-13)

"Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." (Romans 15:13)

"For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

And our hope of you is steadfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation." (2 Corinthians 1:5-7)

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels," (2 Thessalonians 1:4-7)

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14)

"And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12)

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

"Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." (1 Peter 1:21)

"For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" (1 Peter 2:20-21)

This is not my judgment.

God asks us to trust in Him. To have faith in Him. To endure suffering. To have patience in this life. To wait upon Him.

Not only is that a judgment, it contradicts what you have previously said about people not sinning if they have diminished mental faculties.

It is not a judgment - it is reliance on the Word of God - and I said those who are no longer accountable for themselves.

I have suffered from depression - before the Lord healed me - and I was fully accountable for my actions.

I contemplated suicide after my son died. He was very little and my first thought when he passed was, "He is alone, and he must be scared."

My faith was weak. I sincerely considered leaving to join my son, but I knew that neither the Lord nor my son would have wanted that.

My son is not alone. He returned to His Father in Heaven. He is not lost to me. I clung to God's Word and His Holy Spirit to recover from his passing.

Since then, my wife and I have had four other children, and we are happy. I am so grateful that I did not go through with what I had considered.

My comments on the subject of suicide are not frivolous, uninformed or critical - they are well-considered and come from a place of empathy.

Never said it was.
No one takes their own life for the fun of it.

Sin has never been and never will be "fun".

I know. I disagree.

You are free - but you have nothing but your word only.

Where did Jesus, or the Apostles, ever say "repent of your sins. If you choose not to you will go to hell. Don't worry, it will only be for a short time unless you have committed the unpardonable sin, in which case - oh dear.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter reiterated the words of David when he said (this is a reference to Psalm 16:8-11),

"For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses." (Acts 2:25-27,31-32)

David committed some very heinous sins - abuse of God's authority, adultery, murder and attempts to cover up his crimes - and even though he knew that he would spend some time in Hell - he also knew that the Lord would not leave him there forever.

Since he had not committed the "unpardonable sin" - He did not turn away from the Lord even after being chastised and his son dying - he spent the rest of his life repenting of the horrible sins he had committed - which is why he knows that he will one day be forgiven after spending some time in Hell.

I have already mentioned what John claimed in the Revelation - about how the spirits in Hell would be released to be Judged - and I also mentioned Peter talking about the Lord preaching to spirits in prison.

The "lake of fire" is the only "eternal punishment" - the "second death" - and it is reserved only for those who commit the "unpardonable sin" and are "perdition".

As I said - I doubt you will actually read and respond to this in any meaningful way - but I had to respond because sin is never justified, and we should never claim that it is.

 

[Strong in Him]

So - in your view - execution is more compassionate than any other form of punishment?

I was responding to your statement that hell is compassionate and merciful.
Hell is being without God, forever, with no repentance possible. I did not mention execution and do not believe in annihilation after death. If there were such a thing, I am sure someone would rather cease to exist than be forever in a place where they are punished and have no chance of repenting and turning to God.

You. If it is a subjective condition decided upon by those who suffer it - it is a feeling.

It's way more than a "feeling".
Feelings are transient. Feelings may change after a change in circumstances; a good meal, some good news, a good night's sleep or an improvement in health.
Being mentally ill, homeless, unemployed, in debt etc is a long-term state which may not be cured so easily.

My mother grew up in some of the worst conditions laden with neglect, abuse, alcohol fueled rages, abandonment - but she is the sweetest, most caring and patient person I know.

I am very sorry to hear that.
You'll note, though, that I did not comment on the character of the person who is brought up in those conditions. I said that someone in that state may not believe that God exists, or if he does, that he has deserted them.
There are people who say, "God is not real; if he was, he wouldn't have allowed ....". There are also people who don't think of blaming God, maintain a positive and caring attitude and do their best to find solutions to their troubles. I suspect that the first group may be more likely to suffer from depression. Though, as I said, clinical depression is to do with the chemicals in the brain and circumstances may have little to do with it.

After sharing a lot of her experiences with me - and my shock at learning about it - she told me that she had turned to God and decided not to be a victim.

That's a great attitude and your mother sounds an amazing person.

Not everyone will think that way, or be capable of thinking that way, though.

The conditions of a person's life - no matter how horrible - will never be as bad as the actual pains of Hell and can never justify sin - like suicide.

That's the problem, right there. Your starting point is that suicide is a sin
Maybe that's something which the Latter-Day saints teach. But, in the Western world, neither the state, nor many churches, believe that taking your own life is sinful.

As long as we remain alive - we have the opportunity to rely more on the Lord Jesus Christ - and by putting on Christ our burdens can be made light.

Where there is life there is hope; agreed.
Someone who is alive may come to Christ and find his help, mercy and care, agreed.

But there is also a danger of the "believe in Jesus and all your problems will be solved" attitude. It is far too flippant to say that to a severely depressed person, or one who has so many problems that they cannot see a way out.

God exists, He love us, and He always has His hand outstretched toward us through the merits and grace of His Son - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

Claiming that there is ever justification for suicide is to deny the promises of God.

You don't seem to realise, or understand, that some people may be totally incapable of seeing that - and that may be due to severe depression, or other awful circumstances.

The evangelist David Watson suffered from depression.
He believed, taught and demonstrated that Jesus is Lord and able to heal - this did not exempt him from depression.

Claiming that anyone's life could be "Hell" here in mortality is a claim that God is not here - but He is - the Lord Jesus Christ came down and dwelt with Man.

And some people may not believe, or have ever been taught, that.

And my mother - and many other faithful people who decided not to be victims by relying on the Lord Jesus Christ - are proof that the truth sets us free, and we can be happy - even in horrible conditions.

Some people are not able to decide as your mother was.
Some people are in such despair, or such a bad place, that they believe that only death will provide a solution for them.
Some people have such low self-esteem - maybe exacerbated by depression, that they believe the world would be a better place without them and that their death would make life easier for others.

The Lord Jesus Christ claimed that He was in possession of the keys to both Hell and death (Revelation 1:18) - which begs the question - "Why hold onto the keys to a place or condition that is meant to be eternal?"

A door that has no key can be easily opened to allow a person to get out, or in.
A locked door requires a key to open it, to allow either access, or escape.
Salvation is through Jesus alone, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12, 1 John 5:12. Those who trust in him have eternal life, John 3:16 and are reconciled to God, Romans 5:12. He has opened the way for us to escape eternal death, be reconciled to God and become his child.
And one day, hell and death will be locked away, forever.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Exactly - hell and death will be "locked away" - destroyed - forever.

Let me spell it all out for you.

There are only three places mentioned in the scriptures that the spirits of the dead go after physical death - but before the Judgment - Paradise, Prison and Hell.

That's what they believed then.
I would guess that's probably why the Catholics teach about purgatory - a kind of cleansing place which someone can go to for a while if they are not yet ready for heaven.
Jesus told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise", not "today you will go to prison for a while and later you may be able to join me in paradise."

Before the Judgment - there will be a universal Resurrection of the dead - for the small and great - and the spirits from Paradise, Prison and Hell (all the spirits of Mankind) will be reunited with their physical bodies - only they shall now be glorified.

This is the salvation from the dead promised to all Mankind by the Lord Jesus Christ and is only possible because He conquered the grave.

Salvation from death means salvation from spiritual death.
We all still die, but those who trust in Jesus are reconciled with God, have eternal life and cannot be snatched from his hand, John 10:29, not separated from his love, Romans 8:38-39.
Adam and Eve DID die when they ate the fruit - they were escorted from the garden. There was also a barrier between them and God - from then onwards, people had to offer sacrifices for sin.

Even though suicide is not the "unpardonable sin" - according to James the brother of the Lord - "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) - so those who deny the promises of the Lord by killing themselves are "dead" as to their faith and will remain in that state until they are eventually forgiven of their sin by suffering the penalties of their sins in Hell.

That's your interpretation of those Scriptures.
You seem to be saying that a person does not have faith unless they can do something to show that they have faith; those who are dead cannot do that and go to a temporary hell, from which they may, one day, be released.
Scripture does not support that view.
John the Baptist and Jesus both preached repentance - why the urgent need for repentance in this life if someone can, temporarily, go to hell and have another chance to repent?

Those who truly believe in God and His Christ do not kill themselves - no matter what.

I'm sorry, but you do not seem to understand - and from the way you write, have clearly never experienced - true, overwhelming depression.

Jennifer Rees-Larcombe says in one of her books that, when she was a teenager, she heard someone teaching that "true Christians don't suffer from depression." Someone in her youth group, who also heard those words, thought "then that means I'm not a true Christian" - and killed themselves.
"REAL Christians don't have problems/become ill/take their own lives and anyone who does, isn't trusting God enough" is a false, and destructive, teaching, which can only come from the one who is a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies, John 8:44.

This is why none of the Lord's faithful disciples killed themselves

Judas did.
I know I haven't quoted the rest of your sentence, but that is still a fact. Judas Iscariot saw Jesus' miracles and was sent out with the other 11 to drive out demons - he still took his own life.

This is correct - but it was not my claim that the Lord Jesus Christ guaranteed happiness in this life - please pay attention.

You said that Jesus has given us everything we need to have happiness in this life, post #49. Please don't be rude.

I'm sorry - I was operating under the impression that you were also a Christian. Is this not so?

If you are under the impression that Christians can never be ill, depressed, homeless, in despair etc, you have led a sheltered life or swallowed a false teaching and are in for a rude awakening one day.
Read 1 Kings 19. What did Elijah say after he had run from Jezebel; "thank you Lord for giving me victory and showing everyone that you are God"? No, he prayed, "it is enough; let me die".
St Paul also wrote about despairing of life itself. He was ill, Galatians 4:13, and his other sufferings are listed in 2 Cor 11:23-29. No doubt you would say that these latter are acceptable - even to be encouraged - because he was suffering for the Gospel.
Some people go through similar things yet without believing in the Gospel.

And like I said - don't be rude.

Why did you feel the need to reference this verse?

You were talking about doing the will of God.
God's will is that we believe in Jesus.

Do you believe that it supersedes the verses that I shared?

It explains it.
May Christians quote that verse from Matthew about doing God's will - and interpret doing as performing an action, or set of actions. In the Bible, God's word is almost always about being.
It is God's will that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.
It is God's will that we be holy, 1 Thessalonians 4:3.
It is God's will that we rejoice always, pray at all times and give thanks in all circumstances, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18.

Do you believe that the Lord was incorrect or lying in the verses I shared? If so, why?

No of course not.
It is God's will that we know, and accept, Jesus.
If someone doesn't then, even though they do "good things" they are not doing them in God's name or with his authority. Healing, prophesying etc. can be counterfeited by the devil, and it is a common belief that we have to do things to be saved. People often say "he'll never be in heaven" about those who commit crimes. Or "they're going straight to heaven" about those who have led good lives.
A person can do very good, beneficial and noble things without even believing in God. It is not those "good things" which are his will and they cannot save.

Let's put these verses side-by-side so you can come to a better understanding,

Patronising as well as rude.
A more humble person would have said "so that WE can explore/learn from them."

On what scriptural basis do you claim that I am wrong at all?

You believe that suicide is a sin. There is no teaching which says "if anyone takes their own life they will be sent to hell forever."
To make your point you have had to say that "faith without works is dead", that we have to show repentance by our actions and that someone who takes an overdose, or whatever, is incapable of that.
Because they may not be capable of saying "I'm going to SHOW you that I'm sorry" before they die, you seem to be saying that they won't, or can't, be forgiven.

Do you believe that suicide is ever the will of the Father?

No, but he knows people better than they know themselves, Psalm 139, and understands that they may be in despair/not in control of their mental faculties.
You have, elsewhere, said that those who are not in control of their mental faculties are exempt from sin.
Yet you still say that suicide is a sin.

If not - then would not the act of suicide be one of "works of iniquity" mentioned by the Lord in Matthew 7:23?

No.

Of the three places that the scriptures mention that the spirits of Mankind go upon death (Paradise, Prison and Hell) - Prison seems to be a place of repentance (else why would the Lord preach to them?)

He doesn't.
Before his resurrection, tradition says that he preached to those who had died before he had been born and started his ministry and therefore not had a chance to hear his word; OT folk.

God's Word is clear.

If God's word were clear on this matter it would say, "anyone who attempts to take their own life commits a sin. If they succeed and die instantly, they will go to hell. If they remain alive for a few days, they will be forgiven provided they say 'sorry' and show that they are."
Or, " 'suicide will never be forgiven' says the Lord.
We don't have that clear teaching.
You have just put together a lot of unrelated Scriptures - with your interpretation - to try to make your point.

 

[Strong in Him]

Everything else I shared was God's Word.

Your interpretation of it, certainly.
It has to be like that because there is no Scripture which says that it is a sin to take one's own life, or that whoever ends their life, sins.

Fortunately, we have the other Gospels as well as the Pauline epistles to help us come to the correct conclusion - what the "unpardonable sin" really is.

Fortunately we have .... to help us come to the correct conclusion?
You mean, Mark made a mistake and his Gospel contains erroneous teaching?

Matthew records the same exchange between the Lord and the Pharisees - with the Lord making the same claims about all sins being forgiven save the one - yet Matthew does not mention that sin being connected to the Lord being accused of having an unclean spirit. (Matthew 12:24-33)

Matthew chose not to include those words; are you saying that is proof that they were never said?

Luke recorded the same claim by the Lord about the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Luke 12:10) - but his account records the exchange with the scribes and/or Pharisees happening at another time apart from when the Lord spoke on the matter (Luke 11:14-19).

How do you know that it was at another time? Luke 11:1 says that Jesus was praying in a certain place. Verse 29 says "as the crowds increased". Jesus was invited to eat in the home of a Pharisee, Luke 11:37 and later went outside again, Luke 11:53. In Luke 12:1 the crowds had increased by many thousands and Jesus began to speak to his disciples. He told them, rather than the Pharisees, about the unpardonable sin. But the sequence suggests this all happened on the same day.
Besides which, we don't know that he didn't say it twice.

Paul - in his epistle to the Hebrews - clearly explains what the "unpardonable sin" is when he said,

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 12:26-27)

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 12:38-39)

As I shared earlier - "perdition" is a reference to those who will be cast into the "lake of fire" - it comes from the Latin perdere which could mean simply "to destroy" or to "put completely to destruction".

Paul explained that those who were "perdition" - or those who were to be completely destroyed (second death/"lake of fire") - were those who had first received the knowledge of the truth - had been "enlightened" - "tasted of the "heavenly gift", the "good word of God" and "the powers of the world to come" - "patakers of the Holy Ghost" - who actually "received the knowledge of the truth" (not just belief) - yet they still decided to reject it.

No, he didn't.
Firstly, no one knows who wrote Hebrews but the style suggests, and many believe, that it was almost certainly not Paul.
Secondly, we have to look at the circumstances in which the epistle was written.
The author was writing to a church that was made up of Jewish, and Gentile, Christians. The church was facing persecution for its faith in Christ, though it had not yet come, Hebrews 12:4. It seems that the Jewish Christians were aiming to escape persecution - which they could do by saying "we're Jewish" and returning to the synagogues. To be accepted by the synagogues they would have needed to publicly repent of their statement that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah which, it seems, some were thinking of doing - expecting to become Christians again when the threat of persecution had passed. In other words, they were being tempted to deny Christ to save their lives.
The whole of the letter to the Hebrews explains why Christ is greater than anything they had before.
Chapter 1, Christ has been appointed heir of all things, the universe was made through him. He is superior even to the angels.
Chapter 3, Jesus is greater than Moses.
Chapter 4/5 Jesus is our great high priest.
Chapter 6, warning against falling away from the faith.
Chapter 7, Jesus and Melchizedek.
Chapter 8, Jesus, the high priest of a new covenant; the old is obsolete.
Chapter 9, the earthly tabernacle.
Etc.

Those who have tasted the word of God and the world to come and then turn away were the Jewish Christians who had been born again, filled with his Spirit and were serving Jesus but were being tempted to deny all that and return to Judaism.
If they had done that they would have publicly denied, and been ashamed of, Christ, their Saviour. The author is warning that they could not deny him, return to Judaism, change their minds and become Christians again - which may only have lasted until the next threat came along.

It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance because they have "[crucified] to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".

They have fallen away - or have drawn back - because they would rather willfully sin than live according to the knowledge that they had obtained.
It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance because they have "[crucified] to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".

It no doubt would have been impossible for them to return.
Returning to the Jewish faith, publicly denying Christ, re-observing the rituals etc to show they could be trusted and their denial of Christianity was genuine, plus waiting til the threat of persecution had gone could have taken several years.
It is doubtful the church would have accepted, and trusted, them after all that. Some of them might even have died having rejected Jesus

Rejecting that which you know to be true - relying on Satan's delusions and lies instead of God's truth - does something to a person - to is like they have been cauterized, "past feeling" - they have "put off the Spirit of God" - to the point where they can no longer feel His influences - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.

That's the problem - you are applying that to people today and making it present, when it referred to certain people at a certain time.
That doesn't mean Hebrews is not for us - it contains wonderful teaching about Jesus, that he is greater than Moses, our true high priest etc. But it does not say, or mean, that a Christian who is deceived by Satan, turns away from the faith or quenches the Spirit so they can no longer FEEL him, is cast off and rejected forever.

Only if they are no longer accountable for themselves - as I said.

People who are mentally ill and so severely depressed that they would rather die by their own hand than live are not accountable for themselves.

You said, "I know a Christian who had mental health problems but hardly ever missed church. Yet he is now in a very bad way in a mental health institution. Does God condemn him too?"

I asked what God would be condemning him for.

And in response you referenced when I said, "Being consumed by hopelessness to the point of suicide is not having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and acting on it." in Post #47.

I don't know if your friend has committed suicide - but as long as he lives, he can find opportunities to come closer to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not if he is so severely ill that rational thought, faith, memories, belief etc. is impossible.
You seem not to believe that people can be that ill - especially not Christians. I'm sorry, but they can.
It's the same with those who have dementia. In that illness, the brain cells are literally being killed. It's a really scary thought and Christians are not immune from that illness. But we do have the promise that God is with us, will never leave us and that nothing can separate us from his love

Someone being depressed enough to commit suicide is still full accountable if they are cognizant of themselves and what they are doing.

I doubt they would be.

I don't believe there is any reason to assume that everyone who commits suicide is no longer accountable for their actions.

I'm not writing this from a place of assumption, but as someone who has some knowledge of mental illness and who has spent the last 7 years talking with, and trying to help, those who are suicidal.

Anyone who actually has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - not only that He exists - but trust in His teachings and promises - would never commit suicide.

It's very easy to make glib statements when you don't know, and have never actually spoken with, anyone in that position.

We need to do the will of the Father. We need to become new creatures in Christ. We need to rely on Him to help change our nature.

We need to humbly accept God's chastisements. Express godly sorrow for our sins. Confess and forsake them.

The Lord Jesus Christ wants us to sacrifice our sins - for He will not save us in our sins - but from our sins.

We can be forgiven in an instant if our effort is sincere

So we have to DO things to prove we are worthy of being forgiven?

If - however - your last act on Earth is to commit a very heinous sin - then it would need to be paid for in the life after.

That is your belief.

This song works in favor of what I have been saying.

The Lord only pardons us if we "truly believe".

And you're making the judgement that if someone takes an overdose ,says "sorry" before they lose consciousness and dies, they are not truly sorry because they have no opportunity to show by their actions that they are sorry.
OR they never truly believed because TRUE Christians never despair to the point of wanting to end their lives.

This is not my judgment.

Your judgment is that suicide is a sin, that true Christians can't be suicidal, and possibly not even depressed.
God's word does not say that ending your own life is a sin; that's the conclusion you have reached by putting various verses together.

It is not a judgment - it is reliance on the Word of God

Which does not say that suicide is a sin.
Elijah had just seen God moving with great power, "Baal" defeated and the Israelites turning back to God. He should have been delighted; praising and trusting in God. He was in such despair he wanted to die.
Maybe he wasn't trusting in God "enough"?

I have suffered from depression - before the Lord healed me - and I was fully accountable for my actions.

I suspect your thoughts, motives, beliefs and therefore actions were affected by depression - this is what the illness does.

I contemplated suicide after my son died. He was very little and my first thought when he passed was, "He is alone, and he must be scared."

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your son.
My brother also died when very young.

My faith was weak.

I'm sorry, but the human feelings of grief, despair, bereavement and so on cannot be put down to weak faith.
Jesus knew perfectly well that he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead - it didn't stop him from weeping.

My son is not alone. He returned to His Father in Heaven. He is not lost to me. I clung to God's Word and His Holy Spirit to recover from his passing.

That is true - it still does not mean that you were wrong, or had weak faith, because you considered ending your life.

Since then, my wife and I have had four other children, and we are happy. I am so grateful that I did not go through with what I had considered.

No doubt.
I have spoken with those who have attempted suicide and been very glad that the attempt failed. Some have said that they were "alive for a reason" and got the help that they needed.

My comments on the subject of suicide are not frivolous, uninformed or critical - they are well-considered and come from a place of empathy.

Ditto - and experience in my case.

Sin has never been and never will be "fun".

There you go again - your starting point is that suicide is a sin.

And there are plenty of non-Christians who would see sin - by which they mean partying, getting drunk, doing drugs - as great fun.

You are free - but you have nothing but your word only.

I have the word of God - which does not say that suicide is a sin.
And I know God, who is compassionate, loving, kind and does not condemn people who do things from a place of despair. You have said that even such thoughts are due to "weak faith". Maybe you'd like to tell that to Elijah and Paul.

As I said - I doubt you will actually read and respond to this in any meaningful way - but I had to respond because sin is never justified, and we should never claim that it is.

Sorry to disappoint you.

I had to respond because mental illness, suicidal thoughts and even the action itself are not wrong, sinful or the result of weak faith.
IF you are saying that they are, and God cannot forgive them, you do him a great dis-service.