What happened to stoning? (for example)

[koilias]

Transfer of powers....there is no theocracy here on earth... it is in heaven... and the courts will be conducted in heaven... and we will see the judgement here on earth in God's good time. We are not to judge. We are not to deal with the punishment side of the law.. we are to show the love and forgiveness of God's character.

...Interesting answer. Sounds like Paul...we've removed the condemnation of the Law. Very nice answer!...I love it Vis! I believe so too.

On the listing of sins though...I think the issue is much simpler. What is the real motivation for them to try the woman? It is certainly not upholding the Torah, and because of that they are acting with a really cavalier attitude towards life. That will definitely get them in trouble with the heavenly court.

 

[visionary]

...Interesting answer. Sounds like Paul...we've removed the condemnation of the Law. Very nice answer!...I love it Vis! I believe so too.

On the listing of sins though...I think the issue is much simpler. What is the real motivation for them to try the woman? It is certainly not upholding the Torah, and because of that they are acting with a really cavalier attitude towards life. That will definitely get them in trouble with the heavenly court.

I believe scripture is clear as to what their real motivation is...

3 The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim brought in a woman who had been caught committing adultery and made her stand in the center of the group. 4 Then they said to him, "Rabbi, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5 Now in our Torah, Moshe commanded that such a woman be stoned to death. What do you say about it?" 6 They said this to trap him, so that they might have ground for bringing charges against him; but Yeshua bent down and began writing in the dust with his finger.

 

[simchat_torah]

If you look up the 613 mitzvot (commandments) in the Torah, stoning is not one of them. Stoning is a punishment for breaking one of the commands, not a command itself.

 

[By Grace]

If you look up the 613 mitzvot (commandments) in the Torah, stoning is not one of them. Stoning is a punishment for breaking one of the commands, not a command itself.

Now that's an interesting take on the issue...

That would explain a lot in my mind, esp. the question of why King David was not stoned. G-d dealt with him in other ways, as Yeshua also dealt with the adulterous woman in other ways, by showing mercy rather than condemnation.

"Brothers, stop speaking against each other! Whoever speaks against a brother or judges a brother is speaking against Torah and judging Torah. And if you judge Torah, you are not a doer of what Torah says, but a judge. There is but one Giver of Torah; he is also the Judge, with the power to deliver and to destroy Who do you think you are, judging your fellow human being?" (James 4:11-12)

 

[Sephania]

He committed adultery in more ways than one. But I want you to specify which is the worse sin. David was not spotted remember. Halakhically he is ok.
No...I don't believe the halakha is the issue to them. They want to place Yeshua with the option of violating Torah vs. violating Roman Law (it is illegal for Jews to have capital punishment). It is a blatant attempt to either discredit him publicly or get him in trouble with the Romans. Yeshua did not bite.

David was not spotted? I have no inkling what that means right now. As far as committing adultery in more ways than one, are you referring to his other wives?

It is not my job to decide which is the worst sin, Doesn't HaShem regard them all as sins? One not greater or lesser than others?


Speaking of Roman law, if it was illegal for the Judaians to mete out capitial punishment then what changed from this time to the time of the stoning of Stephen?

 

[Sephania]

So, ok, is Yeshua getting the woman off on technicalities? (As, Zayit, despite your noble runaround, you do imply because the man is not there! ) Or is he doing away with the death penalty? And if he isn't, then what stops us from applying it?

I don't believe that was what I was implying, I only stated that because the accusers were not following the Torah exactly, it says if a man..........they both. They only brought the woman. They were wrong in this, but Yeshua said nothing about this, rather in other words, "he who is without sin may judge".

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.


........... 23 "Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P'rushim! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah -- justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to -- without neglecting the others!

 

[koilias]

I don't believe that was what I was implying, I only stated that because the accusers were not following the Torah exactly, it says if a man..........they both. They only brought the woman. They were wrong in this, but Yeshua said nothing about this, rather in other words, "he who is without sin may judge".

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.


........... 23 "Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P'rushim! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah -- justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to -- without neglecting the others!

Right, I can see that the fact that they bring the woman only is a terrible injustice in itself...besides being a double standard. But it is unjust even that they bring her life into jeopardy at all! Her life is the issue, not the technicalities.

 

[koilias]

David was not spotted? I have no inkling what that means right now. As far as committing adultery in more ways than one, are you referring to his other wives?

According to halakha, David is not to be put to death unless two witnesses caught him in the act. Sure, David committed the sin, but he is off the hook as far as stoning goes. It is thus up to G-d to prosecute him.

It was adultery, but more than that it was murder conceived in adultery...thus it was something doubly worse. For his covetousness also had murder in mind. And not just murder, but treachery...In Jewish culture you can do no worse. It's starts with adultery, but it doesn't end there.

It is not my job to decide which is the worst sin, Doesn't HaShem regard them all as sins? One not greater or lesser than others?

He regards them all of equal consequence in the sense that lesser sins lead to more egregious sins. Do not murder, but do not hate your brother first, for hate leads to murder. Lashon haRa, while being seemingly less egregious, can be just as bad as murder since it may lead to the person's death.

What I have in mind here is that the consequences of David's act are manifold, the adultery in itself is not the only sin HaShem sent Natan to convict David of. David did not only expose Uriah's nakedness, but dehumanized him completely by killing him.

Speaking of Roman law, if it was illegal for the Judaians to mete out capitial punishment then what changed from this time to the time of the stoning of Stephen?

In that case, they disobeyed the law. Sometimes the Romans didn't care. The benefit of stoning is that it is more or less anonymous, and harder to prosecute against...as lynching in recent times has shown. James was also killed by the high priest. With Yeshua they would not have done it because the crowds there at Passover would have revolted. But with Stephen it was the opposite case...it was death by the Jerusalem mob. The temple leaders could easily deny, thus, having any involvement.

 

[Mikhail]

In the case if the woman caught in adultery contrary to popular beleif of may preachers Yeshua could not stone her either as he was not a witness to the act and her accusers were gone.

 

[By Grace]

Did it have to be the witnesses who did the stoning, or was the stoning done by the community at large once the witnesses had made their case?

 

[Sephania]

In the case if the woman caught in adultery contrary to popular beleif of may preachers Yeshua could not stone her either as he was not a witness to the act and her accusers were gone.

Excellent point! Although I would beg to differ in that if he knew all thoughts, as we can see many examples of throughout the gospels, then I think he could have seen what exactly happened too. That may have been part of what he revealed in his writing, but we will have to wait to find that out.

 

[Sephania]

I was not exactly in top form yesterday, forgive me, of course, you are correct.

According to halakha, David is not to be put to death unless two witnesses caught him in the act. Sure, David committed the sin, but he is off the hook as far as stoning goes. It is thus up to G-d to prosecute him.

It was adultery, but more than that it was murder conceived in adultery...thus it was something doubly worse. For his covetousness also had murder in mind. And not just murder, but treachery...In Jewish culture you can do no worse. It's starts with adultery, but it doesn't end there.



He regards them all of equal consequence in the sense that lesser sins lead to more egregious sins. Do not murder, but do not hate your brother first, for hate leads to murder. Lashon haRa, while being seemingly less egregious, can be just as bad as murder since it may lead to the person's death.

What I have in mind here is that the consequences of David's act are manifold, the adultery in itself is not the only sin HaShem sent Natan to convict David of. David did not only expose Uriah's nakedness, but dehumanized him completely by killing him.



In that case, they disobeyed the law. Sometimes the Romans didn't care. The benefit of stoning is that it is more or less anonymous, and harder to prosecute against...as lynching in recent times has shown. James was also killed by the high priest. With Yeshua they would not have done it because the crowds there at Passover would have revolted. But with Stephen it was the opposite case...it was death by the Jerusalem mob. The temple leaders could easily deny, thus, having any involvement.

One lie begets another.

 

[Sephania]

Did it have to be the witnesses who did the stoning, or was the stoning done by the community at large once the witnesses had made their case?

Actually, this is a quandry.

Vayikra: 20: 10
A man who will commit adultery with a man's wife, who will commit adultery with the wife of his fellow, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

According to Rashi:



Rashi on 20: 10 The adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death:

Any "death" which is stated in the Torah without further specification is nothing other than strangulation.
And here is a debate on Rashi's ruling http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_53.html


Here is an interesting take on that stoning incident: http://www.nccg.org/512Art-YomKippur2004A.html

 

[Sephania]

http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=1144

Me'am Loez on Mishpatim: The Death Penalty