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What happened to stoning? (for example)

Beth-el girl

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Speaking of MIL's this is a little off track and maybe I should start a new thread but mine just doesn't "get" why we don't eat the foods we used too, we were there once to eat lunch and she had hot dogs I knew they were pork but I was polite and ate one. My stomach hurt for two hours after. My youngest when we used to eat all that stuff would get sick after she ate pizza all the time. It was the greasy pepperoni. God sure knows why he doesn't want us eating different things.
Jen
 
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koilias

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Boy...this thread is hi-jacked at so many levels!:D

And I'm culpable I admit...but before we move on to off topic anecdotes about the health benefits of kosher, I want to know why the anti-Oral Torah folks still do away with the death penalty. Can we really divide the Torah between priestly ceremonial, moral and civil law?? Where in the text does it say we can do that? What is your criteria from the Torah itself? Specifically, how do you Karaitic types explain this? Shalom, Steve-O?
 
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debi b

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Zayit said:
But Kariates aren't allowed to answer in here are they? This would have to be asked in the Jewish debate forum if I understand the rules correctly.

If you have a scroll faith icon you consider yourself a messianic. For the purposes of this forum messianic is defined as:

a) Messianic: A religious/faith group, of Jews and non-Jews, that believes and follows the Mosaic covenant (Torah) given by G-d to all the Jews and also believes in Yeshua of Natzeret as the Jewish Messiah, G-d (HaShem) and deliver of all peoples.

If you follow Karite understanding AND have a scroll icon you would be able to answer questions in this part of the forum.

In other words only Messianic members can debate, answer questions about Messianic Judaism or engage in apologetics here ;)
 
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Yahudim

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visionary said:
I had to highlight the major points I see in what Talmidim wrote to help get it ingrained into the mind and heart.

Will some one rep this man....That was excellent. I can't.
Todah vis,
All glory to Him!
 
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Yahudim

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koilias said:
Good news folks!:) :)

HaShem gave us his Oral Torah. Yeshua's Torah.

...Forget Flusser, forget Pharisees, forget Talmud, forget (gasp!:D) even koilias and his hyper-Rabbinic reading of Paul!....

Yeshua himself said it:

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man!" (Mattityahu 15:11)

And note Rabbinu says "comes out of the mouth", not the other cavity at the end of the digestive tract.
Shalom koilias, :wave:

In this I agree with your post. The Master was very careful to link His statements about the utterances of the mouth to the heart (read intentions thereof) and not the body. So the question remains, when it comes to stoning, is your heart filled with the love that He has shown? Do you follow His command as He taught by word and deed?

I remember what He did in the face of a self-righteous crowd with the intention of stoning a transgressor of the Torah. Will the sinless among us please step forward? Hmmm...

He was the ONLY ONE that had the RIGHT to cast a stone but what did He do? Why? Think about it. He does not change, but we need to in order to understand His Torah. We cannot know Torah until we begin to know Him. That's my take on all of this.

b'Shalom
 
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visionary

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I think while God calls it His Wrath, He is still the same when the plagues fall. Taking the blame, and letting us suffer the consequences for sin. It is the same as when one is in His presence, sin burns up. It is not that He wants to see the sinner burn up but when sin is in the sinner, it burns and thus the sinner gets burned too. If we have Him cleanse us of our sins, then we can be in the presence of God. For without His covering, we would not be able to stand in the presence of such Holiness as His.

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
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Yahudim

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visionary said:
I think while God calls it His Wrath, He is still the same when the plagues fall. Taking the blame, and letting us suffer the consequences for sin. It is the same as when one is in His presence, sin burns up. It is not that He wants to see the sinner burn up but when sin is in the sinner, it burns and thus the sinner gets burned too. If we have Him cleanse us of our sins, then we can be in the presence of God. For without His covering, we would not be able to stand in the presence of such Holiness as His.
Whoo Hoo!!! Gives me chills!
 
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Mirelys

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*** I want to know why the anti-Oral Torah folks still do away with the death penalty. Can we really divide the Torah between priestly ceremonial, moral and civil law?? Where in the text does it say we can do that? What is your criteria from the Torah itself?***

Good question...it's just how I was taught to do it. Must go ask Mom where she learned it....
My reasons for dividing it aren't in the Torah, they're in Hebrews. It says that part of the Torah is fulfilled, yet it's obvious that not all of it is. There should be a discernable reason for part of Torah to be marked off, but not the whole thing; I don't think anything in Scripture is random.
Argh, I know what I mean but I'm having difficulty explaining myself :doh: . I'll go away and think about it for awhile.
 
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koilias

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talmidim said:
So the question remains, when it comes to stoning, is your heart filled with the love that He has shown? Do you follow His command as He taught by word and deed?
I agree with what you are saying Talmidim. Unfortunately, some might inspect their hearts and think they are pure indeed, such is the delusion of their own self-righteousness. They then will think it is incumbent to follow HaShem's command to the letter. If HaShem commanded we should stone, who are we to disagree with Him? Such is the level of simplicity that some ant-Oral Torah folks approach the text...You see what I am getting at?

Yeshua is not ignorant of the Torah when he said to them..."He who is without sin, throw the first stone." In fact, he and they knew he was referring to the Torah directly:

"And all the congregation said to stone them with stones." Numbers 14:10

(See what I mean by reading Numbers 13-14). He and they also know what could have happened to Judah had he gone through and burned Tamar to death. But to get at this insight you need to understand the importance of weighing carefully in halakhic debate the actual options the Torah provides us to guide the people with wisdom. You need Rabbinical authority...and the people knew Yeshua had authority to respond the way he did. The eldest departed first because the Torah condemned the eldest in Numbers 14...they knew they were next in line so they scooted outta there as quickly as possible!:D


 
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koilias

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Wags said:
I agree with Henaynei, scripture is clear that ignorance is not bliss.

But we must not be ignorant of scripture.;)

The Torah specifies that only these things make one "unclean":

  1. Contact with a dead body (Num. 19:11-22).
  2. Contact with the carcasses of living creatures (Lev. 11:23-44).
  3. Bodily discharges, including emission of sperm, menstrual flow (Lev. 15) and the woman's bleeding at childbirth (Lev. 12).
  4. Skin diseases (Lev. 13-14).
  5. Contact with sanctified space or objects. Those who prepared the ashes of the red heifer became ceremonially unclean as a result of their holy labor (Num. 19:1-10); the high priest was required to bathe himself with water between his various duties on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16:4, 23-24).
...Not contact with pig meat, shrimp, etc.

Even then, there are cases when one RIGHTEOUSLY violates purity to take care of individuals, prepare bodies for burial, heal them (see Yeshua), etc, etc. This is called "Doing Grace", "la'asot Hesed" in the Tenakh and in Judaism. The technical term for those of you who might be interested in these violations of ritual purity or Torah study (for righteous reasons) is called "Gemilut Hasadim".
 
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Sephania

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But this is my understanding.
talmidim said:
Interesting... Especially if it was those scriptures He was writing in the sand before He spoke! I will have to research this a little! I tippah my kippah! :D

2 At daybreak, he appeared again in the Temple Court, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim brought in a woman who had been caught committing adultery and made her stand in the center of the group. 4 Then they said to him, "Rabbi, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5 Now in our Torah, Moshe commanded that such a woman be stoned to death. What do you say about it?" 6 They said this to trap him, so that they might have ground for bringing charges against him; but Yeshua bent down and began writing in the dust with his finger. 7 When they kept questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "The one of you who is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Then he bent down and wrote in the dust again. 9 On hearing this, they began to leave, one by one, the older ones first, until he was left alone, with the woman still there. 10 Standing up, Yeshua said to her, "Where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, sir." Yeshua said, "Neither do I condemn you. Now go, and don't sin any more."

Firstly if she was caught in the very act, she couldn't have been alone, could she?;) Secondly, I have a different understanding than Koilas, could be wrong but this is my understanding right now.

The woman is brought to him
The accusation is made
the penalty for this act is reiterated ( but not in full :) )

Yeshua's reaction?
He bends down and starts writing something in the dust.

They persisted in asking him what he would do so he straightened up and told them that the one who was without sin could cast the first stone. That only one there that was without sin was he, himself. He doesn't even remain standing and facing them, but gives them a chance to "bow out gracefully" in grace. I belive he was writing in the dust the names of the accusers, starting with the eldest ( who should have had more wisdom?) to the youngest. Then when he returned he started putting next to each name the sins they had commited, from the eldest to the youngest.

He who was without sin, he who could be the only one righteous to do so, did not.

I believe this is a similar teaching of judgement he gave in Matt.

1 "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. 2 For the way you judge others is how you will be judged -- the measure with which you measure out will be used to measure to you. 3 Why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye but not notice the log in your own eye?


I beleive that they were actually breaking the law of Moshe because the law says:

This is the law as it is written:

10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, that is, with the wife of a fellow countryman, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Lev20

That is the law and this is also part of HaShems instructions:

2 In order to obey the mitzvot of ADONAI your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it. Deut 4:2


This also brings to mind as to why King Daavid was not stoned? :) HaShem judged him.
 
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koilias

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Zayit said:
I belive he was writing in the dust the names of the accusers, starting with the eldest ( who should have had more wisdom?) to the youngest. Then when he returned he started putting next to each name the sins they had commited, from the eldest to the youngest.

I like this interpretation a lot!;)

10 "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, that is, with the wife of a fellow countryman, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Lev20

That is the law and this is also part of HaShems instructions:

2 In order to obey the mitzvot of ADONAI your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it. Deut 4:2


So we are to stone today?? C'mon people tell me flat out!;)


This also brings to mind as to why King Daavid was not stoned? :) HaShem judged him.

For which sin? Adultery (where does it say this?) or murder?

Actually, Zayit, I believe you're more on the correct path to the situation with "judge not lest you be judged". They brought the woman to trap Yeshua (where are their real motives?) and thus making sport of a real human life. What does this say about their hearts? They were about to be convicted of a form of sin equally punishable by death. If this is their true motive then they are about to murder her. Believe me, there was a real reason they got outta there quick. Yeshua made his point subtly but with oh so much bite.:)
 
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visionary

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Zayit said:
But this is my understanding.

I belive he was writing in the dust the names of the accusers, starting with the eldest ( who should have had more wisdom?) to the youngest. Then when he returned he started putting next to each name the sins they had commited, from the eldest to the youngest.
Everything I followed and agreed with.....except.....Yeshua revealing sin...I have a hard time with the concept of Yeshua exposing sinners in public.
 
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Sephania

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I have a hard time with the concept of Yeshua exposing sinners in public.
Calling someone a Satan isnt' exactly not exposing sin is it? And this was with his own Talmidim, Kefa. His whole ministry was bringing sinners to repentance. When he healed he told them, 'your sins are forgiven'.

But maybe it was more like this?

11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

HaShem has already written a book or books in which everything about everyone is recorded, Moshe knew this, and offered up his place in the book of life in exchange for the lives of Israel for their sins.

33 ADONAI answered Moshe, "Those who have sinned against me are the ones I will blot out of my book. Deut

King David also knew of this book that contains all our sins:

7 Sprinkle me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness, so that the bones you crushed can rejoice. 9 Turn away your face from my sins, and blot out all my crimes. Ps 51

So could he have been showing once again his authority? To forgive sins or to blot someones name out from the book of life?

 
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Sephania

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koilias said:
I like this interpretation a lot!;)



So we are to stone today?? C'mon people tell me flat out!;)

No, I never said that, we are to show mercy as he did.

For which sin? Adultery (where does it say this?) or murder?

3 David made inquiries about the woman and was told that she was Bat-Sheva the daughter of Eli'am, the wife of Uriyah the Hitti. 4 David sent messengers to get her, and she came to him, and he went to bed with her (for she had been purified from her uncleanness). Then she returned to her house. 5 The woman conceived; and she sent a message to David, "I am pregnant." 2sam 11

You aren't contending that he didn't commit adultry are you? :)

Actually, Zayit, I believe you're more on the correct path to the situation with "judge not lest you be judged". They brought the woman to trap Yeshua (where are their real motives?) and thus making sport of a real human life. What does this say about their hearts? They were about to be convicted of a form of sin equally punishable by death. If this is their true motive then they are about to murder her. Believe me, there was a real reason they got outta there quick. Yeshua made his point subtly but with oh so much bite.:)
Yes, but they weren't even using the true interpretation of the law, but their own.
 
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visionary

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Zayit said:
Calling someone a Satan isnt' exactly not exposing sin is it? And this was with his own Talmidim, Kefa. His whole ministry was bringing sinners to repentance. When he healed he told them, 'your sins are forgiven'.

But maybe it was more like this?

11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

HaShem has already written a book or books in which everything about everyone is recorded, Moshe knew this, and offered up his place in the book of life in exchange for the lives of Israel for their sins.

33 ADONAI answered Moshe, "Those who have sinned against me are the ones I will blot out of my book. Deut

King David also knew of this book that contains all our sins:

7 Sprinkle me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness, so that the bones you crushed can rejoice. 9 Turn away your face from my sins, and blot out all my crimes. Ps 51

So could he have been showing once again his authority? To forgive sins or to blot someones name out from the book of life?

Yeah... I can see that... :clap:

I was seeing a visual from your writting of Yeshua leaning down and writing in the sand beside their name something like this...which other people do not need to see.

so and so's name.....killed joseph behind the sheep shed
yada yad's name.....grabbed Yahvanet by the throat and threatened him
another name.....kicked wife for falling down and being an embarrassement
other party name...for setting up the girl to get caught in the act.

after all we know that by a look, they all were convicted in their own hearts, He knows.
 
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koilias

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Zayit said:
3 David made inquiries about the woman and was told that she was Bat-Sheva the daughter of Eli'am, the wife of Uriyah the Hitti. 4 David sent messengers to get her, and she came to him, and he went to bed with her (for she had been purified from her uncleanness). Then she returned to her house. 5 The woman conceived; and she sent a message to David, "I am pregnant." 2sam 11

You aren't contending that he didn't commit adultry are you? :)
He committed adultery in more ways than one. But I want you to specify which is the worse sin.;) David was not spotted remember. Halakhically he is ok.
Yes, but they weren't even using the true interpretation of the law, but their own.
No...I don't believe the halakha is the issue to them. They want to place Yeshua with the option of violating Torah vs. violating Roman Law (it is illegal for Jews to have capital punishment). It is a blatant attempt to either discredit him publicly or get him in trouble with the Romans. Yeshua did not bite.
 
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koilias

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So, ok, is Yeshua getting the woman off on technicalities? (As, Zayit, despite your noble runaround, you do imply because the man is not there!:p ) Or is he doing away with the death penalty? And if he isn't, then what stops us from applying it?
 
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visionary

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Transfer of powers....there is no theocracy here on earth... it is in heaven... and the courts will be conducted in heaven... and we will see the judgement here on earth in God's good time. We are not to judge. We are not to deal with the punishment side of the law.. we are to show the love and forgiveness of God's character.
 
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