What happened to neanderthal man?

[Halbhh]

I'm not saying that Homo Sapiens violence didn't play a part in it. We're animals, territorial ones too, so the idea of some Cro-Magnon... let's go with tribes since that fits the bill better, would have classed with Neanderthal tribes while others got on peacefully enough to interbreed would them is something that would have happened. But I do think that you are putting too much emphasis on the violence part.

And I think that using the term 'warfare' is a bit of a stretch of the evidence. Some raids for food would have probably happened, maybe some punitive raids by one side of the other in response would have happened too.

Let's just agree that the evidence is a bit up in the air at the moment. 'Kay?

Sure. By 'war' I did mean any kind of violence that is a group against a group, and it would mostly be raiding or territorial elimination of competition I'd expect. A big organized war would be very surprising to me back then.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Sure. By 'war' I did mean any kind of violence that is a group against a group, and it would mostly be raiding or territorial elimination of competition I'd expect. A big organized war would be very surprising to me back then.

It would be surprising to everyone. Except for the people who write crappy pulp sci-fi literature.

 

[Halbhh]

Again, I'm not saying that there weren't violent classes, but I don't think there is enough evidence at the moment to solely support your idea that Cro-Magnon violence was the main cause for the Neanderthal extinction.

I was actually referring to homo sapien violence against the Neanderthals, and see, I'm using the presumption that just like the great apes, every last variety of the genus human (homo) are each and all violent. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if any of all the variety of our genus included any much less violent variety. I suppose this view could be a little loaded in that it makes us seem red in tooth and claw, less intrinsically good, or at least more mixed in character than many would like to see us. Again, I'd be happy to find out my older view before I read all those articles was correct -- that we were a more happy and peaceful species. That was the view I had to give up on.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I was actually referring to homo sapien violence against the Neanderthals, and see, I'm using the presumption that just like the great apes, every last variety of the genus human (homo) are each and all violent. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if any of all the variety of our genus had a non-violent instance.

You are literally just repeating what I said. And while Humans (Homo Sapiens and earlier) have violent tendencies, they are also communal creatures which inherently means that our ancestors would have been good natured as well as foul natured.

And I just realised that for the second time, I had written 'classed' instead of 'clashed'. Oy vey.

 

[Halbhh]

Again, I'm not saying that there weren't violent classes, but I don't think there is enough evidence at the moment to solely support your idea that Cro-Magnon violence was the main cause for the Neanderthal extinction.

Since their extinction overlaps with our appearance (us modern humans), I think it was us in some way. But how exactly.

There are competing views. Just looking at the wiki --

Hypotheses on the fate of the Neanderthals include violence from encroaching anatomically modern humans,[3] parasites and pathogens, competitive replacement, competitive exclusion, extinction by interbreeding with early modern human populations, and failure or inability to adapt to climate change. Interbreeding took place in western Asia about 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, as evidenced by 1 to 4 percent of genomic material carried by non-African people living today.[4] It is unlikely that any one of these hypotheses is sufficient on its own; rather, multiple factors probably contributed to the demise of an already widely dispersed population.
...
In research published in Nature in 2014, an analysis of radiocarbon dates from forty Neanderthal sites from Spain to Russia found that the Neanderthals disappeared in Europe between 41,000 and 39,000 years ago with 95% probability. The study also found with the same probability that modern humans and Neanderthals overlapped in Europe for between 2,600 and 5,400 years...

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Since their extinction overlaps with our appearance (us modern humans), I think it was us in some way. But how exactly.

There are competing views. Just looking at the wiki --

Hypotheses on the fate of the Neanderthals include violence from encroaching anatomically modern humans,[3] parasites and pathogens, competitive replacement, competitive exclusion, extinction by interbreeding with early modern human populations, and failure or inability to adapt to climate change. Interbreeding took place in western Asia about 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, as evidenced by 1 to 4 percent of genomic material carried by non-African people living today.[4] It is unlikely that any one of these hypotheses is sufficient on its own; rather, multiple factors probably contributed to the demise of an already widely dispersed population.
...
In research published in Nature in 2014, an analysis of radiocarbon dates from forty Neanderthal sites from Spain to Russia found that the Neanderthals disappeared in Europe between 41,000 and 39,000 years ago with 95% probability. The study also found with the same probability that modern humans and Neanderthals overlapped in Europe for between 2,600 and 5,400 years...

And I still hold the view that Neanderthals went extinct because we had a greater presence in changing the environment they lived in by becoming better hunters, aka the dominant predator. And then the interbreeding too, but the Homo Sapiens changing the environment is the main one for me.

 

[Halbhh]

Since their extinction overlaps with our appearance (us modern humans), I think it was us in some way. But how exactly.

There are competing views. Just looking at the wiki --

Hypotheses on the fate of the Neanderthals include violence from encroaching anatomically modern humans,[3] parasites and pathogens, competitive replacement, competitive exclusion, extinction by interbreeding with early modern human populations, and failure or inability to adapt to climate change. Interbreeding took place in western Asia about 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, as evidenced by 1 to 4 percent of genomic material carried by non-African people living today.[4] It is unlikely that any one of these hypotheses is sufficient on its own; rather, multiple factors probably contributed to the demise of an already widely dispersed population.
...
In research published in Nature in 2014, an analysis of radiocarbon dates from forty Neanderthal sites from Spain to Russia found that the Neanderthals disappeared in Europe between 41,000 and 39,000 years ago with 95% probability. The study also found with the same probability that modern humans and Neanderthals overlapped in Europe for between 2,600 and 5,400 years...

Is violence pretty widespread in the archaeological record? Yes. For instance --

The paper also examines evidence of an evolutionary basis for violence and aggression by looking at the early hominid archaeological record. The paper finds significant evidence for some evolutionary basis for violence given its ubiquity in both the present as well as the deep archaeological past.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...e=Examining_the_evidence_from_small-scale.pdf

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Is violence pretty widespread in the archaeological record? Yes. For instance --

The paper also examines evidence of an evolutionary basis for violence and aggression by looking at the early hominid archaeological record. The paper finds significant evidence for some evolutionary basis for violence given its ubiquity in both the present as well as the deep archaeological past.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/38551214/13-mccallshieldsAVB2008.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1505773869&Signature=KNyUCmFF8LkcaAdhMWHnDB1uHGI=&response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Examining_the_evidence_from_small-scale.pdf

Animals kill other animals. In other news, water is wet.

 

[Halbhh]

And I still hold the view that Neanderthals went extinct because we had a greater presence in changing the environment they lived in by becoming better hunters, aka the dominant predator. And then the interbreeding too, but the Homo Sapiens changing the environment is the main one for me.

Plausible. Being intelligent, the Neanderthals could have learned that us modern humans are deadly to fight against, and often run and hid (or emigrated), and starved, often. Also, see #47 above about more violence stuff.

Gotta go. Thanks for discussing! Lemme know if you find a rich new bit of info or theory.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Plausible. Being intelligent, the Neanderthals could have learned that us modern humans are deadly to fight against, and often run and hid (or emigrated), and starved, often. Also, see #47 above about more violence stuff.

Yeah, you can't be dumb (relatively speaking) and be able to hunt large game effectively. It'd just be a recipe for disaster.
And again, animals kill other animals. In other news, water is wet.

 

[mark kennedy]

There is a lot of information about neanderthal man. I would like to look at the artifacts: "an object made by a human being". Around 40,000 years ago we find sowing needles, fishing hooks and fishing nets. This is when man first came up out of Africa because they were now able to adapt to a colder ecosystem. One of the great mysteries of early human evolution is what happened to extinct hominin groups like the Neanderthals and Denisovans. These were human groups who lived in Europe and Asia for hundreds of thousands of years before Homo sapiens started streaming out of Africa and taking over the world.

This is a clear example of a species leaving one eco system and adapting to become a part of another biodiverse eco system.

Genesis 1:28 "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

They evolved.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The environment did not change.

The environment changes continually.

What changed was homo sapiens ability to adapt to a colder climate.

How would that affect Neanderthals unless each was part of the other's environment?

 

[joshua 1 9]

They started to eat big Macs and fries!

That would not kill them off before they were able to reproduce.

 

[bhsmte]

Hilarious!

 

[Targaryen]

Why did Neanderthals go extinct?

 

[JackRT]

Went extinct 40,000 years ago? Can't be! I taught some in high school and they did well on the football team.

 

[bhsmte]

Why did Neanderthals go extinct?

Well, what do you know.

 

[Targaryen]

Well, what do you know.

I'm sorry. Was that supposed to be a question?

 

[bhsmte]

I'm sorry. Was that supposed to be a question?

No.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is east to travel east and west when the climate temperature remains the same. The problem is if you want to go north and south into a different climate. When they invented the air conditioner people were able to live a lot further south then before air conditioners.

I wasn't aware that tribes in african huts had airco.