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What government plans do you support to reduce abortions?

Not of the World

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Remember there is a huge difference between giving money to Ukraine...

By the way, a healthy portion of those funds are sent back under the table (so to speak) to folks like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and others. It's fraud. It's theft. American politicians are eager to give away the people's wealth because they always get kickbacks under the table from the recipients of those "donations". Remember...

1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
 
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GodLovesCats

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I support and advocate for people to follow Christ and walk the narrow path that he prescribed for us.

I disagree with the concept that a woman who chooses to have sex and then becomes pregnant is morally justified to KILL her offspring unless someone else pays all of her expenses.

Therefore, you must support providing health insurance for rape victims because they chose not to have sex and were forced to get pregnant anyway.

Do you support exceptions for rape and incest or only to save the mother's life?
 
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dqhall

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I support and advocate for people to follow Christ and walk the narrow path that he prescribed for us.

I disagree with the concept that a woman who chooses to have sex and then becomes pregnant is morally justified to KILL her offspring unless someone else pays all of her expenses.
It hinges on the question, when does life begin? Is the sperm or the egg a human being? If conception has occurred, it may take days for a pregnancy test to detect it.

If the woman was raped should she be given the morning after pill? If the fetus is growing in an ovary, fallopian tube or vagina, should the fetus be aborted and the mother’s life spared?

Only married couples should have sex by mutual consent. This rule prevents many senseless abortions.
 
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GodLovesCats

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It hinges on the question, when does life begin? Is the sperm or the egg a human being? If conception has occurred, it may take days for a pregnancy test to detect it.

Everyone who graduated from high school knows when life begins biologically: at the moment of fertilization, except for one of two identical twins.

If the woman was raped should she be given the morning after pill?

I think police should be allowed to bring a "morning-after pill" to the house for her to take while they are investigating the bedroom where she was raped. Of course, such a law would not require abortion opponents to do it against their religious beliefs, but if taken very early, it would not be an abortion because pregnancy begins when a zygote implants on the uterine wall. (Remember abortion means ending a pregnancy, not killing an unborn offspring.)

If the fetus is growing in an ovary, fallopian tube or vagina, should the fetus be aborted and the mother’s life spared?

Ectopic pregnancies kill both the mother and embryo, so having a fetus outside the uterus is medically impossible. They are true medical emergencies and only treatable by removing that ovary and fallopian tube, so nearly all abortion opponents support these embryonic abortions.

A fetus in the vagina will become a baby within the next few minutes or hours. That is not an ectopic pregnancy location.

Only married couples should have sex by mutual consent. This rule prevents many senseless abortions.

So would a health care law that ensures all fertile couples are able to get the most effective contraception and counseling on when to have a baby.

Also, for the life of me I will never understand why abortion opponents also oppose mandatory sex education in schools. Until every fertile kid is taught every topic related to sex, there will be adultery and extramarital sexual intercourse, two causes of abortion.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I read articles about Catholic churches forcing girls to convert to Christianity before getting help with their pregnancy crises. Their real mission has never been to help any pregnant teenagers, but they all pretend it is on billboards and other advertisements. It is just to prevent them from getting abortions, period. They all do it in extremely unethical (and totally un-Christian) ways. Their nonprofit status is the only thing preventing CPCs from being shut down by state governments.

I have no faith in Republicans to wake up and decide to help pregnant teenagers until it happens. Some anti-abortion laws have no exceptions for rape or incest, which means they only care about controlling women, not the unborn baby's life, because that is what the sex crimes are. When all anti-abortion laws have exceptions for rape and incest, I can think otherwise .Until then, I am 100% positive all Republicans who write those evil laws care about is controlling girls and women, not protecting babies.
The articles you read are false.

The Catholic Church never forces conversion and will reject a person asking to convert without them seeking to convert to follow Christ and then being properly instructed in the faith. Most conversions take about one year.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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The most frustrating part of discussing abortion with people who totally oppose it except to save the mother's life is when challenged, they never answer the title question. So I am putting it here hoping all abortion opponents will stop dancing around the extremely obvious and repeatedly proven fact that without a lot of help from the government, hundreds of thousands of pregnant girls and women need abortions for many justifiable reasons. It is literally impossible to oppose both abortion and all government programs that can prevent most of them unless you happen to be a misogynist whose real intention is to control women, which I am sure no Christians are because they believe in love.

One reason I am a Democrat is I want the number of abortions to drop. I want all of the reasons many girls and women suffer psychologically, physically, and socially during their unwanted pregnancies to nearly disappear. I also want the reasons women who wanted babies, but suddenly find themselves unable to care for them, to be gone. Only the federal and blue state governments can do that for them.

So, what do you want the federal government to do to help pregnant girls and women who lack the ability and resources to carry their unborn babies for nine months and take care of them for the next 20 years? What would be your plan if you were a politician? Would you prefer they get all their help from states or the federal government? Keep in mind we are not talking about crisis pregnancy centers here because they have very limited resources and, as Catholic Church-based organizations, will do nothing for non-Christians who need help. It truly is the government or nothing, no matter how she got pregnant or why she is considering abortion.
"thousands of pregnant girls and women need abortions for many justifiable reasons."

Other than to save the life of the mother, what justifiable reasons are there to end the life of the unborn child?


FYI, learn the difference between a "direct abortion," and an "indirect abortion."
 
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GodLovesCats

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The articles you read are false.

The Catholic Church never forces conversion and will reject a person asking to convert without them seeking to convert to follow Christ and then being properly instructed in the faith. Most conversions take about one year.

You obviously have no interest in answering the thread title question. Everyone who does would only talk about that, not what they incorrectly assume (without providing any evidence) about totally corrupt churches.

I refuse to talk about anything apart from the thread topic or accept any claims by people who choose to have no idea what they are talking about. If you don't want to directly answer the question, you have no reason to post in this thread.
 
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GodLovesCats

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"Thousands of pregnant girls and women need abortions for many justifiable reasons."

Other than to save the life of the mother, what justifiable reasons are there to end the life of the unborn child?

If you think saving the mother's life is the only justifiable reason to get an abortion, you want the government to help her out because nobody else can. There are many justifiable reasons to abort a pregnancy because often, the mother is getting no help to avoid needing one. I want to know what your plan would be for the government to help prevent millions of abortions you believe are totally unjustified.

FYI there is no such thing as an unborn child. Birth is required for any human being to be a child because "child" means "young person."

FYI, learn the difference between a "direct abortion," and an "indirect abortion."

I never said there is such a thing as an indirect abortion. What in the world are you talking about?
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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The most frustrating part of discussing abortion with people who totally oppose it except to save the mother's life is when challenged, they never answer the title question. So I am putting it here hoping all abortion opponents will stop dancing around the extremely obvious and repeatedly proven fact that without a lot of help from the government, hundreds of thousands of pregnant girls and women need abortions for many justifiable reasons. It is literally impossible to oppose both abortion and all government programs that can prevent most of them unless you happen to be a misogynist whose real intention is to control women, which I am sure no Christians are because they believe in love.

One reason I am a Democrat is I want the number of abortions to drop. I want all of the reasons many girls and women suffer psychologically, physically, and socially during their unwanted pregnancies to nearly disappear. I also want the reasons women who wanted babies, but suddenly find themselves unable to care for them, to be gone. Only the federal and blue state governments can do that for them.

So, what do you want the federal government to do to help pregnant girls and women who lack the ability and resources to carry their unborn babies for nine months and take care of them for the next 20 years? What would be your plan if you were a politician? Would you prefer they get all their help from states or the federal government? Keep in mind we are not talking about crisis pregnancy centers here because they have very limited resources and, as Catholic Church-based organizations, will do nothing for non-Christians who need help. It truly is the government or nothing, no matter how she got pregnant or why she is considering abortion.
One Eastern Orthodox priest wrote:

Harvard Law professor Mary Ann Glendon has pointed out that the United States not only has the most permissive abortion laws in the industrialized West; its social policy does less for women and children than any other industrialized nation. She sees a connection. A nation in which single women, or poor married women, are afraid to have children because they will be left alone if they do is one in which abortion will often be seen as a lesser evil. To see it that way is wrong, from a Christian point of view. But it is also wrong to condemn abortion, without trying to help those for whom bearing a child will involve real burdens.​
Changes in law are part of this. Bearing a child should not mean the end of educational or work opportunities, and these possibilities weigh most heavily upon poor women in our society. In addition to working for changes in the law which might erode the permissive approach to obtaining abortions, it is important to work for positive justice, for a climate in which those women who bear children will not be penalized for having made that choice.​
My daughter's best friend who already has one child by an abusive former bf, got pregnant and had an abortion. She's 22, without job prospects, and struggling. Yet childcare is so expensive that working may not even be worth the money. For example, when we had our kids, we saw that my wife, with only an associates degree, would only make $1 per hour once we factored in daycare. So I started working part-time as well. No matter what she could do, I would make up to triple what she could earn. Now in our mid fiftys, I make five to six times what she might be able to pull in. So the income imbalance is a major factor.

So my dream list
Better sex and mental health education
Expand the social security network to include health insurance, wellcare for parents, paternity time off to encourage fathers to be able to help at home.
Encourage local governments to build low cost or subsidized day-care facilities.
Provide better educational benefits for post-high school programs with vocational programs that allow someone to get a decent job.

As for the "We give some foreign power money, why didnt we use it here?" this cartoon sums it up for me

1671216825571.png
 
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FenderTL5

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The most frustrating part of discussing abortion with people who totally oppose it except to save the mother's life is when challenged, they never answer the title question. So I am putting it here hoping all abortion opponents will stop dancing around the extremely obvious and repeatedly proven fact that without a lot of help from the government, hundreds of thousands of pregnant girls and women need abortions for many justifiable reasons. It is literally impossible to oppose both abortion and all government programs that can prevent most of them unless you happen to be a misogynist whose real intention is to control women, which I am sure no Christians are because they believe in love.

One reason I am a Democrat is I want the number of abortions to drop. I want all of the reasons many girls and women suffer psychologically, physically, and socially during their unwanted pregnancies to nearly disappear. I also want the reasons women who wanted babies, but suddenly find themselves unable to care for them, to be gone. Only the federal and blue state governments can do that for them.

So, what do you want the federal government to do to help pregnant girls and women who lack the ability and resources to carry their unborn babies for nine months and take care of them for the next 20 years? What would be your plan if you were a politician? Would you prefer they get all their help from states or the federal government? Keep in mind we are not talking about crisis pregnancy centers here because they have very limited resources and, as Catholic Church-based organizations, will do nothing for non-Christians who need help. It truly is the government or nothing, no matter how she got pregnant or why she is considering abortion.
I think you have asked a fair question.

I tend to think that many (maybe most) conservatives only favor government involvemnt on this issue in two facets. Those facets are prohibition and prosecution/punishment.
I am opposed to abortion in all but an extreme few/rare instances. However, I also favor government involvement in the societal issues that have a direct impact on abortions, specifically those proven over time to reduce them. Some of those would/could include universal healthcare or at the minimum a focus on pre-natal and post-natal care. I also support measures that would reduce poverty etc. That said, I am conservative but I disagree with most conservatives on when/how tax dollars should be spent.

The reality is this; the number of abortions in the US has been in decline since the late 70s. The rate of decline tends to increase under democratic leadership moreso than when the GOP policies are in effect (the Trump Adminstration actually had an increase in the number of abortions, the first since the late 70s). Another sad, sobering reality is that 70% of abortions are by those who claim to be Christian.

Again, I think your question is fair and is worthy of considerate thought and further discussion.
 
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GodLovesCats

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One Eastern Orthodox priest wrote:

Harvard Law professor Mary Ann Glendon has pointed out that the United States not only has the most permissive abortion laws in the industrialized West; its social policy does less for women and children than any other industrialized nation. She sees a connection. A nation in which single women, or poor married women, are afraid to have children because they will be left alone if they do is one in which abortion will often be seen as a lesser evil. To see it that way is wrong, from a Christian point of view. But it is also wrong to condemn abortion, without trying to help those for whom bearing a child will involve real burdens.
Changes in law are part of this. Bearing a child should not mean the end of educational or work opportunities, and these possibilities weigh most heavily upon poor women in our society. In addition to working for changes in the law which might erode the permissive approach to obtaining abortions, it is important to work for positive justice, for a climate in which those women who bear children will not be penalized for having made that choice.​

I had no idea any Eastern Orthodox priest would be willing to accept these and other facts, even coming from a school like Harvard University, as justifiable reasons to get abortions. Thank you for posting this.

Abortion is considered the lesser evil in their minds because of the first sentence. Since the USA does less for both women and children than any other industrialized nation, single mothers know raising their babies would do more harm than good for both of them. As Christians, we have no excuses for leaving these girls and women out in the cold. Jesus did not tell us to only help ot5her Christians, so I will never understand why any mature Christian - Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant - disagrees with the bold text.

My daughter's best friend who already has one child by an abusive former bf, got pregnant and had an abortion. She's 22, without job prospects, and struggling. Yet childcare is so expensive that working may not even be worth the money. For example, when we had our kids, we saw that my wife, with only an associates degree, would only make $1 per hour once we factored in daycare. So I started working part-time as well. No matter what she could do, I would make up to triple what she could earn. Now in our mid fiftys, I make five to six times what she might be able to pull in. So the income imbalance is a major factor.

This is an excellent point. The fact that even married women cannot afford to take care of their own children is one people need to raise awareness of. Yes, a woman can say she has a job, but that could just mean she is a dog groomer. And even if her husband is earning lots of money at his job, there is no guarantee he will still be working there at least 20 more years. The woman needs her own living wage job, which often requires earning a bachelor's degree at age 22, whether she is married or not.

So my dream list
Better sex and mental health education
Expand the Social Security network to include health insurance, welfare for parents, paternity time off to encourage fathers to be able to help at home.
Encourage local governments to build low cost or subsidized daycare facilities.
Provide better educational benefits for post-high school programs with vocational programs that allow someone to get a decent job.

I will address all of these proposals ASAP.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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You obviously have no interest in answering the thread title question. Everyone who does would only talk about that, not what they incorrectly assume (without providing any evidence) about totally corrupt churches.

I refuse to talk about anything apart from the thread topic or accept any claims by people who choose to have no idea what they are talking about. If you don't want to directly answer the question, you have no reason to post in this thread.
And yet you attack the Catholic Church which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Better sex and mental health education

I would include teaching high school students how to make the "when to have sex" decision and detect a potential rapist if possible. Does that look good to you? What about video demonstrations of using contraception methods to improve their success rate?

Mental health education is an interesting idea. I always thought about insurance for pregnancy/maternity counseling by specialists (who must be mothers themselves), but obviously it would be good to not need one.

Expand the Social Security network to include health insurance, wellcare for parents, paternity time off to encourage fathers to be able to help at home.

I assume you meant to type welfare there, since wellcare is not a word.

Paternity leave is already available, depending on the employer. They call it family leave so both moms and dads can take time off for infant care. But I would love to see all companies be required to offer more time off, which other countries do.

Encourage local governments to build low cost or subsidized daycare facilities.

Of course, states should have very high standards for the quality of care and make sure it is only free to the parents under a certain income level.

What is your definition of low-cost on this topic?

Provide better educational benefits for post-high school programs with vocational programs that allow someone to get a decent job.

My high school offers vocational school opportunities to juniors and seniors. Students are still officially in 11th and 12th grade, but attend a career center full or part time. So there is no cost to learn how to be a hair stylist or composer, for example. But I worry about their earnings.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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If you think saving the mother's life is the only justifiable reason to get an abortion, you want the government to help her out because nobody else can. There are many justifiable reasons to abort a pregnancy because often, the mother is getting no help to avoid needing one. I want to know what your plan would be for the government to help prevent millions of abortions you believe are totally unjustified.

FYI there is no such thing as an unborn child. Birth is required for any human being to be a child because "child" means "young person."



I never said there is such a thing as an indirect abortion. What in the world are you talking about?
This is akin to saying there are justifiable reasons for a mother to kill her child because of circumstances she can't live with.

There is no justification for killing an unborn child except in the case to save the life of the mother.

FYI, and indirect abortion is when the doctor induces labor rather than directly killing the unborn child
before it's born.

Ectopic pregnancies are reasons for an "indirect abortion." The Catholic Church states that this is licit(approved).
I go further and say that inducing labor before the fetus could survive outside of the womb, in order to save
the life of the mother, would be licit. There are those in the Church who would disagree.
 
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GodLovesCats

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And yet you attack the Catholic Church which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

I was explaining why we need the government to help. One reason for that is the Catholic Church does not, even when it can. Another is it simply can't help everyone who needs the help they do provide.
 
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GodLovesCats

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This is akin to saying there are justifiable reasons for a mother to kill her child because of circumstances she can't live with.

There is no justification for killing an unborn child except in the case to save the life of the mother.

If the mother knows during pregnancy she can't take care of a baby, she is not killing a child. No, it is absolutely NOT the same thing.

If you think saving her own life is the only justifiable reason to have an abortion, you want the government to help her out. What do you want the government to do to help people with unwanted pregnancies?

Again, it is literally impossible to believe only keeping the mother alive justifies having an abortion as long as the government does not provide all the help pregnant girls and women need both before and after childbirth.
 
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Not of the World

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Healthy women aborting their healthy offspring is definitely evil and is "of the world". @ChristianForCats I am praying for God to help you to see that the type of abortion that I described above is contrary to his will and that you will change your view.

Be fruitful and multiply
Thou shall not kill
Love your neighbor as yourself
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

On-demand abortion violates ALL of those commandments.
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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I would include teaching high school students how to make the "when to have sex" decision and detect a potential rapist if possible. Does that look good to you? What about video demonstrations of using contraception methods to improve their success rate?

Mental health education is an interesting idea. I always thought about insurance for pregnancy/maternity counseling by specialists (who must be mothers themselves), but obviously it would be good to not need one.



I assume you meant to type welfare there, since wellcare is not a word.

Paternity leave is already available, depending on the employer. They call it family leave so both moms and dads can take time off for infant care. But I would love to see all companies be required to offer more time off, which other countries do.



Of course, states should have very high standards for the quality of care and make sure it is only free to the parents under a certain income level.

What is your definition of low-cost on this topic?



My high school offers vocational school opportunities to juniors and seniors. Students are still officially in 11th and 12th grade, but attend a career center full or part time. So there is no cost to learn how to be a hair stylist or composer, for example. But I worry about their earnings.

Sorry I dont know how to break this up like you did. This new format is confusing to me.

By wellcare, I mean by making resources available for assistance when things are going well. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure type of thing.

During the Great Recession, we were on welfare for three years. One of the problems I have with it is that the income levels can be detrimental. I was working full time and received a raise that would have been about $500 a month. However, we would have lost our state health insurance and to replace it would run $750 a month. So my raise would have cost me $250 per month. So how that works, heck if I know :p

As for vocations, we need to be realistic about their pay. I get up set when "news" articles say, "Make six-figures without a college degree" and then list something like airline pilot. Uh yeah, if you are the senior pilot for a 777 or A380, sure. But that pilot has probably been flying for 20 years or more.

Im still waking up so that's about as far as my brain is functioning for now :)
 
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