What goes on?

sobresaliente said:

Would it be possible for someone to simply live for these Charismatic Manifestations?

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My experience has been that it is not only possible, but unfortunately, most probable. I think this was Paul's contention with the Corinthians, as he states in chptr 1, "you come behind in no gift", but then mentions how carnal they have become, with step-mothers as wives, etc.

I've personally tell me they don't "feel the witness of the Spirit" when trying to explain certain verses to them.

flyfishing said:

This description troubles me somewhat. You had to put the tv time on hold because the LORd wanted to set people free... That sounds to me very much like religion not BIBLE..

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Putting the tv service on hold wasn't the problem it's not a live broadcast. Our pastor will always step aside and let a message of tongues or other message be completed before continuing the service.
The point was it caused complete confusion among the entire assembly. No one was set free that we were aware of, the church wasn't edified, she was not praising the Lord, she was rolling on the floor laughing during a time of prayer for the unsaved. She may have been touched-I don't know for sure.
I will not climb on God's throne and pass judgement on this woman's salvation, as I do not know her relationship with the Lord and am not implying she's not saved, or it was a work of the devil. I cannot vouge for her works, I do not know her personally and I haven't seen her in the service before that day.
I'm merely saying this type of behavior cannot be found anywhere in scripture and you should be cautious with such things. Yes there was "confusion" during Pentecost, but it was the onlookers that were confused if I remember correctly.
I'm not able to look this up right now, I could very well be mistaken I haven't read Acts for a little while. I'm sure you'll let me know promptly if I am.

I never mean to offend, just offer opinions.
May the good Lord do a wonderous work in all of you.

BK said:

Putting the tv service on hold wasn't the problem it's not a live broadcast. Our pastor will always step aside and let a message of tongues or other message be completed before continuing the service.
The point was it caused complete confusion among the entire assembly. No one was set free that we were aware of, the church wasn't edified, she was not praising the Lord, she was rolling on the floor laughing during a time of prayer for the unsaved. She may have been touched-I don't know for sure.
I will not climb on God's throne and pass judgement on this woman's salvation, as I do not know her relationship with the Lord and am not implying she's not saved, or it was a work of the devil. I cannot vouge for her works, I do not know her personally and I haven't seen her in the service before that day.
I'm merely saying this type of behavior cannot be found anywhere in scripture and you should be cautious with such things. Yes there was "confusion" during Pentecost, but it was the onlookers that were confused if I remember correctly.
I'm not able to look this up right now, I could very well be mistaken I haven't read Acts for a little while. I'm sure you'll let me know promptly if I am.

I never mean to offend, just offer opinions.
May the good Lord do a wonderous work in all of you.

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Thank you for clarifying..This time i was able to grasp more fully your objections...thanks for your concern about me.. I dont see those manifestations and know the genuine from the false.. It would upset me if the toiming was at a time for prayer for the lost..

sobresaliente said:

Would it be possible for someone to simply live for these Charismatic Manifestations?

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Vs living for Jesus???? Yes unfortunately and sadly so.. That is why you hear some say charismatic witchcraft...

flyfishing said:

That is why you hear some say charismatic witchcraft...

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Are you trying to start something? Didn't this subject go 'round before?

I've been a holy roller for 30 yrs. and some of the suff that is in the frist post is just the same old --------- well I just can't say. But if God told me to go stand on my head in the conor and He would heal everyone or even just one get out of my way!

enoch son said:

I've been a holy roller for 30 yrs. and some of the suff that is in the frist post is just the same old --------- well I just can't say. But if God told me to go stand on my head in the conor and He would heal everyone or even just one get out of my way!

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If GOD told you whether or not he is going to heal anybody... I understand what youre saying... Some do indeed strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. For me I would have to see whether CHRIST is indeed being glorifyed,are people coming to repentance, are people being saved. Cause if all three criteria are not met then its not the LORD....

BK said:

I go to an Assembly of God church where some pretty interesting things have happened such as tongues with interpretations and healings. Last Sunday a woman broke out into what they call "Holy Laughter" I've never heard of this before, but I guess it's becoming more and more common. There is no scriptural backing for this behavior. It was very disruptive. Our church is televised and had to be put on hold until she stopped. There is not supposed to be demonstrations that put the church into a state of confusion. I would always bump what your asking about against the Bible, I can't recall anything on your list ever occuring in scripture except for the dancing part. David danced for the Lord with all his might and it was acceptable. People held celebrations played instruments and danced for the Lord all the time and it was pleasing to Him.

God bless

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holy laughter?
the oil of joy for mourning!!!!

BK said:

Putting the tv service on hold wasn't the problem it's not a live broadcast. Our pastor will always step aside and let a message of tongues or other message be completed before continuing the service.
The point was it caused complete confusion among the entire assembly. No one was set free that we were aware of, the church wasn't edified, she was not praising the Lord, she was rolling on the floor laughing during a time of prayer for the unsaved. She may have been touched-I don't know for sure.
I will not climb on God's throne and pass judgement on this woman's salvation, as I do not know her relationship with the Lord and am not implying she's not saved, or it was a work of the devil. I cannot vouge for her works, I do not know her personally and I haven't seen her in the service before that day.
I'm merely saying this type of behavior cannot be found anywhere in scripture and you should be cautious with such things. Yes there was "confusion" during Pentecost, but it was the onlookers that were confused if I remember correctly.
I'm not able to look this up right now, I could very well be mistaken I haven't read Acts for a little while. I'm sure you'll let me know promptly if I am.

I never mean to offend, just offer opinions.
May the good Lord do a wonderous work in all of you.

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yah, the onlookers being confused...
good point.
so what about when you have people in church being "touched", and those who are NOT touched are "looking on" at the whole proceeding... confused. are they confused because of whats going on around them? or because in their heart they cannot assimilate what is going on with their beliefs, or they are under attack of the enemy to keep them distant from it.... hmmm

sobresaliente said:

Greetings,
I have been to a few of these Charismatic services at a church in my area. I am not sure of all the things that go on there, I can find no biblical evidence for the uses that many of the people that go there claim the Holy Spirit does. It is possible that I am not looking hard enough.

How do you explain:

Convulsions

Screaming

Animal noises

strange dances

uncontrollable laughter

inability to walk



I am not planning on posting anymore, I am just wondering how you can explain all this in light of scripture. Definitions of the above phrases/sounds would be nice too, and any other ones I may have forgottent as well. There should be a FAQ forum in this place.

Sobresaliente

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Convulsions - you mean like doing the herky jerky? the shakes? i wrote about that in the last comment.... or do you mean where someone is in deliverance and they are wailing and cringing and farting and all that? intense emotional/spiritual things can have a profound effect on your body. during some deliverances, people sometimes fart a lot... some people say its demons coming out of the body (maybe it is), but i think it might be more of a bodily reaction to the stress and duress of the deliverance process...

Screaming - sometimes people travail for their loved ones or for the city... they sometimes sound like they are giving birth (thus "traivail"). crying out to the lord, etc. i started screaming one time, the Lord just brought to mind a painful thing in my past, and i started screaming like a terrified child... He led me through something that i had held so deeply for many many years and had not greived. and He popped the cork. that was a year ago, and there is such a release in so many ways of old emotions. now, a lady there did get scared and left, and i got kinda bawled out by someone there... but i KNOW it was God (think what you want), because of the permaned change in me... did that lady get scared because of me? or did she get scared because the enemy saw it as an opportunity to get at her??? this was a very charismatic gathering, and 99% of the other people (of about 250 ppl) seemed to have little to no problem with it. also, much as we wish we could please all people all the time, we cant humany do that. so, let go and let God...

Animal noises - picture man's best friend. the dog comes up to its owner, andit loves him so much it just starts licking him and jumping up on him. or its so lonely it is mournfully howling for its owner to come home. if God uses the metaphor of a dog and it's master and they in the spirit start howling for God and feel the "puppy love" for their master and it moves that way, who are we to judge? do i think all barking is of God? no. but then neither is all singing, all praying, or any facet of our chirstian lives.

strange dances - like what? in our church someitmes some of us will start pounding the ground, pounding satan, or hitting the ground with our flag sticks - not content to war with only three strikes on the ground, but to pummel the enemy... on girl does "karate" moves in her dancing... it is all personal expression of their worship or prayers to God. again, is it all of God? not necessarily. but just be cause we dont under stand it doesnt mean it isnt of GOd. his ways are not our ways... if we dont understand something, and it looks foolish to us, does that necesarrily mean its foolishness to GOd? no, hey, was it...jeremiah? that the lord told to lay on his side for like a year or something? my memory is a bit foggy on that one...

uncontrollable laughter - oh yeah, i've had that a few times. he gives me the oil of joy for mourning. refreshing. just joy in the Lord. i love it. fire-tunnels, "joy" anointing oil. am i living for this experience? nope. i think some people could, if that ws the only joy or peace they got. but that is true with anything. someone could "live" to be at that litergical service/mass every day to get their "boost"....

inability to walk - um, yeah. i've gotten stumbly a few times. just get week, feel the Spirit all over you. then there are the shakes and quakes, where you get jerky or shivery. in our church, most people dont think twice about these things. if it happens, it happens, if it doenst it doesnt. ppl arent looked down on either way. we are just open to the Spirit of God, and walk in faith that when we ask for the holy spirit, the Father will not give us a bad gift....

Is CHRIST BEING GLORIFIED< IS HE PREACHED??

IS there repentance evident? Changed lives??

Are people coming to salvation and the saints getting closer to CHRIST???

WE certainly cannot judge by any of the criterias posted previously.. Some were in fact probaly genuine some others dubious... To judge by the criteria of whether the world understands is "understandable but also foolhardy".. The world will never understand the things of GOD, they are a carnal being with no spiritual understanding.. All they have a capacity for at that point is to hear the message of salvation and how often do they perceive that as foolishness???


Oh yes another thing to add, Does the "messages" proclaimed remain true to the WORD???? It is pretty hard to judge somethings subjectively from Scripture. John was overwhelmed on Patmos, the apostles were thought to be drunk however i see no indication of animal noises..Perhaps mourning for ones sins in repentance??? But barking like a dog etc must be labeled as of demonic influence... My question regarding the deliverances is are they being delivered or are they showing a parade of "ole slewfoots buddys"??? How can people come every week for deliverance.. He whom the Son hath set free is free indeed.. And when possession again occurs it is 7 times worse...

Lynne,

I so often agree with your posts that I hate to bring up a point of disagreement, as for example when you wrote:

LynneClomina said:

Animal noises - picture man's best friend. the dog comes up to its owner, andit loves him so much it just starts licking him and jumping up on him. or its so lonely it is mournfully howling for its owner to come home. if God uses the metaphor of a dog and it's master and they in the spirit start howling for God and feel the "puppy love" for their master and it moves that way, who are we to judge? do i think all barking is of God? no. but then neither is all singing, all praying, or any facet of our chirstian lives.

------

uncontrollable laughter - oh yeah, i've had that a few times. he gives me the oil of joy for mourning. refreshing. just joy in the Lord. i love it. fire-tunnels, "joy" anointing oil. am i living for this experience? nope. i think some people could, if that ws the only joy or peace they got. but that is true with anything. someone could "live" to be at that litergical service/mass every day to get their "boost"....
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I have a question: Where is discernment in all of this?

If an exhibitionist (and let’s face it, Charismatic churches attract them like flies) or an unknown psychotic, schizo, or mentally off-center person is present in a congregation of people (and I have been in services where they are) and begins barking like a dog what do we do. Tolerate it? Even if it is not edifying to the rest of the congregation, though it is disruptive and creates more questions than answers. Most Charismatics believe that “the spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets” (1 Cor. 14.32, NIV). - meaning, we are responsible for our own actions in a public gathering of believers. In fact, the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians (and it is one of the longer chapters in the Bible and no wonder!) is written to advise the Corinthian church to be proactive in controlling the use of gifts and so-called “manifestations” in public meetings. This advice is not followed in many Charismatic fellowships and creates unnecessary and controversial scrutiny from the world. The chapter urges sensitivity to uninitiated people. When are Charismatics going to follow the adice of …


Apparently, this was more of a concern to the Apostle than it seems to be to Charismatic leaders today, and because the use of spiritual gifts and “manifestations” are not wisely and judiciously managed by God-appointed leaders in congregations and gatherings of people, extreme behavior is given license. It is my personal opinion that much of what God was attempting to do in, say, Toronto and Pensacola (which I attended), was thwarted by license given to people to “manifest” such things as attention-getting animal sounds, loud groanings, screaming, jerking, etc.etc. which brought more attention to the person than to the Lord. In fact, this sort of conduct became the things that were spotlighted by those outside the church. At one of the Pensacola services I attended, I personally heard the pastor, John Kilpatrick - reacting to criticism about the jerking, shaking, barking, etc. that were occurring in the services - publicly say from the pulpit, “I didn’t start these things and I am not going to stop them,” inferring that he was powerless (or afraid) to control the unedifying, bizarre, wacky, self-serving, attention-getting behavior in the gatherings. In fact IMO, he was shirking his responsibility and blaming unnatural (even feral) behavior on the Holy Spirit. In my community, all of those who attended the revival in Pensacola could talk about was the so-called “manifestations” that occurred, not on the message or the souls saved. A video of the woman at the Pensacola church, a school teacher if I remember correctly, whose head shook continually during the revival services (though strangely not at work, restaurants, or Walmart) was widely circulated in our area. To the initiated (believers), it was “God.” To the uninitiated, it was crazy (see 1 Cor.14.23 above).

Are all “manifestations” of the flesh? Of course not. Is some (perhaps more than just ‘some’) of it out of order? Certainly. And it is the out-of-order stuff that often makes Charismatics the object of unnecessary ridicule and misunderstanding. We spend more time defending our actions than we do preaching the Gospel, as this thread (and this post) is evidence.

I agree with the Apostle Peter: “For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God,” 1 Peter 4.17. If we don’t better police our actions, I am sure God will.

Jim
\o/

LynneClomina said:

yah, the onlookers being confused...
good point.
so what about when you have people in church being "touched", and those who are NOT touched are "looking on" at the whole proceeding... confused. are they confused because of whats going on around them? or because in their heart they cannot assimilate what is going on with their beliefs, or they are under attack of the enemy to keep them distant from it.... hmmm

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hmmm...very interesting- I think as long as what is happening is Biblical, it shouldn't really stir up confusion among the body of believers. Unless of course you have someone break out in a message of tongues in say a Baptist church LOL . That was a joke, before I get slammed for it. I attended a Baptist church for close to two years and loved every minute of it.

flyfishing said:

Is CHRIST BEING GLORIFIED< IS HE PREACHED??

IS there repentance evident? Changed lives??

Are people coming to salvation and the saints getting closer to CHRIST???

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Christ glorified/preached - in our church, always.
repentance evident/changed lives - yes. most of the time, yes. i know from my experience I have been changed, so when i see something "weird" i pray Lord, if this is not of You, please quench it, if it is, open my heart to what you are doing because this is WEIRD! and i trust God to answer that prayer faithfully.

flyfishing said:

But barking like a dog etc must be labeled as of demonic influence...

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why must?
there are LOTS of "weird" things in the world we do not attribute to the devil. computers are not in the bible. albinos are not in the bible as far as i know. now, i am not saying all barking etc is of God - i stated that very clearly - i am just open to the possibility that God DOES sometimes do things we think are strange. when i pray for discernment, i dont say, Lord, stop that, because that OBVIOUSLY isnt You... like i said, i say God, this is weird - we only want your Holy Spirit in this place... if this is not of you, please remove it from our midst... if it IS you? then show us. that is how we have been taught in our church to pray for discernment, no not automatically discount something, but to seek God. and manifestations such as these do not happen every week, but when they do, God usually reveals to us corporately what he is doing, there is a corporate witness... the odd time something just felt not right? it usually stopped as inexplicable as it began. to us, there IS "order" in the mess of it all. it is generally only the "detached" onlooker that gets disturbed, if they do at all.... i have been in another denominational church where one lady spoke in tongues and translated, and as soon as she started, everyone just tensed up. all very orderly, but it just felt weird. that has never happened in our church, that "disturbed" feeling, at least not on a corporate level.

i've never barked or growled etc. and i've never seen it either, just heard about it.

flyfishing said:

My question regarding the deliverances is are they being delivered or are they showing a parade of "ole slewfoots buddys"???

How can people come every week for deliverance.. He whom the Son hath set free is free indeed.. And when possession again occurs it is 7 times worse...

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there is DELIVERANCE, where it all happens at ones, and there is deliverance that is more of a slow progressing healing. i HAVE see full blown deliverances a couple times, but when God is doing a deep work in somebody it has tended to be slow... over a period of weeks or months. victory in ONE area, then later in ANOTHER area... yeah, i suspect some of the time ppl have allowed slewfoots bud's another go at it, but ppl do make mistakes and fall back into sin etc so that doesnt automatically mean they are fake or something.

to you all!

I find these responses very interesting. I have been involved in charismatic functions for 26 years and have not seen some of the things mentioned. I have seen "holy Laughter" many times and have asked the Holy Spirit about it. I have the impression it is valid.
As for screaming, I have seen that manifestation at deliverance services which is Biblical.

For all of us, having intimacy with the Holy Spirit enables us to just ask Him.

It might be realized, that of often when the presence and power of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is first experienced it is easy to get "carried away." I know I did.
There is a tendancy to thing acting emotionally should be reserved for sporting events.

hal said:

It might be realized, that of often when the presence and power of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is first experienced it is easy to get "carried away." I know I did.
There is a tendancy to thing acting emotionally should be reserved for sporting events.

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yah! i agree. newbies can get worked up. its all in how its handled. does someone take that person aside and say, you need to calm down? or do you run up to them and say DEVILS BEGONE!!! and scare the bejeebers out of them? so they never want to even TRY to allow themselve to move in the spirit again? i've seen THAT too and that is just sad...

May I add that where some who are new in the Spirit and recact in an immature mannner, there are also others who are new in the Spirit that react toward them in a irresponsible manner.

For me, my focus is on what the Holy Spirit specifically wants me to do and to learn from Him what I need to know in order to do it.
Everything else is irrelevent.

I believe God understands the confusion that can result from His release of power, but He has sent a Helper who makes available the spiritual gift of discerning of spirits.

I try to keep in mind that the devil does everything he can to spread confusion. He is fearful of the power that is available to us that we can use to defeat him.

LynneClomina said:

Christ glorified/preached - in our church, always.
repentance evident/changed lives - yes. most of the time, yes. i know from my experience I have been changed, so when i see something "weird" i pray Lord, if this is not of You, please quench it, if it is, open my heart to what you are doing because this is WEIRD! and i trust God to answer that prayer faithfully.



why must?
there are LOTS of "weird" things in the world we do not attribute to the devil. computers are not in the bible. albinos are not in the bible as far as i know. now, i am not saying all barking etc is of God - i stated that very clearly - i am just open to the possibility that God DOES sometimes do things we think are strange. when i pray for discernment, i dont say, Lord, stop that, because that OBVIOUSLY isnt You... like i said, i say God, this is weird - we only want your Holy Spirit in this place... if this is not of you, please remove it from our midst... if it IS you? then show us. that is how we have been taught in our church to pray for discernment, no not automatically discount something, but to seek God. and manifestations such as these do not happen every week, but when they do, God usually reveals to us corporately what he is doing, there is a corporate witness... the odd time something just felt not right? it usually stopped as inexplicable as it began. to us, there IS "order" in the mess of it all. it is generally only the "detached" onlooker that gets disturbed, if they do at all.... i have been in another denominational church where one lady spoke in tongues and translated, and as soon as she started, everyone just tensed up. all very orderly, but it just felt weird. that has never happened in our church, that "disturbed" feeling, at least not on a corporate level.

i've never barked or growled etc. and i've never seen it either, just heard about it.



there is DELIVERANCE, where it all happens at ones, and there is deliverance that is more of a slow progressing healing. i HAVE see full blown deliverances a couple times, but when God is doing a deep work in somebody it has tended to be slow... over a period of weeks or months. victory in ONE area, then later in ANOTHER area... yeah, i suspect some of the time ppl have allowed slewfoots bud's another go at it, but ppl do make mistakes and fall back into sin etc so that doesnt automatically mean they are fake or something.

to you all!

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I guess i see in scripture when demons come back it is seven times worse..

why is barking of the devil??? Well you could make a case the people had mental health problems but i would label that as 90% of the time influenced by demons...

flyfishing said:

I guess i see in scripture when demons come back it is seven times worse..

why is barking of the devil??? Well you could make a case the people had mental health problems but i would label that as 90% of the time influenced by demons...

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most people WITH a mental health problem dont bark. why would they here?

yah, ok, so what about all these people who get progressively better, and NOT seven times worse every time they have a deliverance of some bondage in their life?