What Gives Jews The Right To Tell Mel Gibson What Should Be In A CHRISTIAN Movie?

[Top Cat]

Well with the anti-semitic overtones, we won't have to worry about it saving any Jews now will we?

Hi Son Worshipper, I am really glad you have come on this message board and despite the fact that this must be a difficult or upsetting subject for you I hope you stay and teach us something about who you are and where you come from(spiritually and attitude wise I mean). I know that Jesus loves u loads and is delighted that you've acknowledged him as your lord and saviour. I read Judges the other night(I really like the old testament, it has a lot of meaty stuff and also how to live the christian life e.g. in the new testament it says slaves obey your masters(or employees obey your employers)but those who are looking to find out how to do tha tcan look in Daniel and how he worked hard even under a boss he didn't like. There are loads of examples like that) also cause it tells of how much God loves the jews and chose you as an object of love, favour and mercy. The jews, like the gentiles are people and will fail, but God shows his continous mercy, though discipline also. The part I read in judges showed about five times where the Jews turned from God, where disciplined, then recieved mercy and returned to God again(all in one or two chapters). Its amazing. My hubby often asks why God chose the Jews as his people. I can only guess that it was because Abraham pleased him and so he continued his promise. It may also be as an indication of his love and mercy to the nations, by choosing an errant bride just as he instructed a certain prophet to do to indicate God's mercy to the Jewish people(I cannot remember the name of the prophet).
Anyway i'm skipping off the point here, i'll just say that I hope Mel Gibson's film is true to the Gospels. I think to be honest, that if the devil is going after the seed of the woman in revelation so to speak, the jews would be persecuted anyway. I firmly believe that those who attack others due to religious reasons have always an alterior motive and that God is very conveniently used as a justifiable reason for attack. The exact same excuses are used in Northern Ireland, also by the KLU KLUX KLAN and no doubt by the people who who crashed into the two towers. If one group will attack another, they will do it. The bible or God never justifies this, but believe me they will look for any verse(and I mean any, no matter how obscure)to justify their actions. For example of this I believe the racism verse was 'come out and be seperate', at least I think so. This is a verse which has nothing whatsoever to do with white/black relations but they jumped on it.
There is a verse I really like in John where Jesus is saying 'people who kill you will think they are doing God a favour, but they have never known the father or me'. It is addressed to the disciples and apostles from Jesus, however it can just as easily relate to anyone who kills for their beliefs and uses God as an excuse.

Anyway take care of yourself and God Bless

Top Cat

 

[SonWorshipper]

All Jews were not Christ-killers, and all Christians were not Jew-killers.

AMEN!
Although I must say that there is a slight difference, it was the decision 1970 years ago by the leadership of the ruling body who were corrupt at the time, and saw their sins exposed, one by one, So what did they do? Same as what many politicians do today; cover-up. Trumped up charges, mob mentality and what do you have?

Nope! No one killing anyone, but the Lord God completing his plan On Schedule, as conceived before the beginning of the world, he laid down his life for all, for the Jew first and then the Gentile.

Now on the other hand we have those in their "righteous indignation" pronouncing that the Jews killed "THEIR" Jesus. This annuls many a scripture, the one that comes to mind first being Strangely enough something Saul addressed to the 'Romans: chapter 11: I invite you all to read it carefully.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

As you can see, these verses must have be thoroughly ignored, else how can one boastfully accuse the Jews of doing something only one Jew did? And that one Jew was Jesus, he, and he alone laid down his life. No "one" killed him, yet we all contributed EQUALLY by our sins, for that is what he died for, to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

By accusing every Jew as a Christ killer

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now how can they possibly be jealous of the Gospel preached by those accusing them of killing "their God"?

 

[SonWorshipper]

I am not sure i understand the issue here. Should Germans be looked at as bad people because of Hitler in a short timespan? I have german blood in me. Am i evil?

What happened 2000 years ago has nothing to do with the Jewish culture or faith. It has to do with Truth of Jesus Christ and what happened. Jews dont believe the Truth is in Jesus Christ. But the fact remains Christians do. And the His last hours are a crucial stage.
Are jews to blame? no. In fact, before we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, we are all basically those pharisees and Sadducees.

No wait. were john. No wait. We are mary. No wait. We are judas. No wait. we are........ARGH! my head.

What happened 2000 years ago has nothing to do with the Jewish culture or faith. It has to do with Truth of Jesus Christ and what happened.

Jews dont believe the Truth is in Jesus Christ. But the fact remains Christians do. And the His last hours are a crucial stage.

These two sets of sentences contradict each other. What happened almost 2000 years ago has every bearing on how Jews today see "Jesus" I can give you testimony after testimony of how this is presented here in US, the most religiously tolerant nation on the planet. It gets worst around the world.

It boils down to one thing, if you understand the elaborate things and plans HaSatan went through to STOP the first coming of Jesus you will be able to understand that the second coming ( as a Mighty King) will he try to stop even more, for his time is short and his sentence has already been pronounced.

Jews don't believe the Truth is in Jesus Christ

I do hope this is a blanket statement and one made out of ignorance of the facts. One of these facts is that I just came from spending a week with approximately 1000 Jews that believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as their Messiah, They are called Messianic Jews. And even in the state of Israel there are now (although it remains illegal and they could be in danger of deportation) over 100 Messianic (Jewish believers in their Messiah Yeshua Ben Joseph - Jesus son of Joseph) congregations there, and they continue to grow each day. The one I attend in the states has doubled in just a year. Messianic believers are part of the remnant, God has not forgotten his wife, nor his promises to her, Praise Him!

 

[TrinityHerself]

Wow. Just a TAD bit of anti-semitism here, don't you think?

The ENTIRE race of Jews have been blamed for Jesus's death SINCE it happened. We have oppressed them for over 2000 years based on this fact, and considering Christianity is supposed to be all about FORGIVENESS, it would make sense to let it go. NO ONE knows what really happened to get Jesus killed, except that it wasn't an odd occurance, and that there were others before him. Any book that claims they knew what happened is incorrect. While we can make guesses due to good historical research, being certain of ANYTHING in history is stupid considering the biases of the reader and of the historian.

Good riddance.

 

[Knight]

Wow. Just a TAD bit of anti-semitism here, don't you think?

The ENTIRE race of Jews have been blamed for Jesus's death SINCE it happened. We have oppressed them for over 2000 years based on this fact, and considering Christianity is supposed to be all about FORGIVENESS, it would make sense to let it go. NO ONE knows what really happened to get Jesus killed, except that it wasn't an odd occurance, and that there were others before him. Any book that claims they knew what happened is incorrect. While we can make guesses due to good historical research, being certain of ANYTHING in history is stupid considering the biases of the reader and of the historian.

Good riddance.

I've avoided weighing in on this for good reason. I really don't have an opinion on it.

However, this comes real close to denying the Biblical account of Christ's crusifiction. The Bible clearly teaches that it was the Jewish leaders who pushed for Jesus' death. You can find this isn the Gospels of Luke and Matthew.

Is this a reason to hate and oppress all Jews? Absolutely not. Is it a reason to hate the Jewish leaders who actually pushed for His death? No on that one too.

Christ had to die to pay for our sins. The leaders of His day, both the Jews and the Romans, were instruments of this. This is central to the Christian faith.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

These two sets of sentences contradict each other.

I guess i didn't explain myself well. And don't really care to try right now.

I do hope this is a blanket statement and one made out of ignorance of the facts.

It was a blanket statement.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

I've avoided weighing in on this for good reason. I really don't have an opinion on it.

I was feeling the same way too, but then i realized that i dont care for political correctness like "Lets all hug and be friend".

 

[The Midge]

[ Heavy Sarcasm on] Of course Mel Gibson is well known for his non-partisan and historically accurate films such as Braveheart and The Patriot[Heavy Sarcasm off /]

A feature film about the life of Christ with high production values and star quality actors would be welcome. If it is genuinely true to the Gospels it is bound to be contraversial because that is the very nature of Jesus. Tell his story and there has to be some kind of reaction to it.

As for Jews being Christ Killers; I only have to look in the mirror of my own soul to know the truth of that.

 

[EJO]

Jews did not kill christ
Romans did not kill Christ

God killed Christ.... It was his original plan way back in Genesis 3:15, "his heel will bruise your head" That is a reference to Christ.

Also, Jesus knew this was to happen- "Not mine, but your will be done" He knew it was God's plan in the first place.

this is Satans way of trying to divide people, and take us off subject, which is Christ saves!

 

[EJO]

Oh, and God raised Him from the dead, to give us victory.

 

[Axion]

There is an important point here.

Should the facts of the Crucifixion, as recorded in the Gospels be altered or massaged to make them more amenable to Jewish sensibilities?

The sixties films Greatest Story Ever Told and King of Kings tended to do this. Trying to make the Romans the key conspirators in the death of Jesus because Jesus was supposedly a threat to Roman rule.

This was done to ward off the "Jews were Christ-killers" argument.

However the Gospel account clearly tells us that the prime impetus for Jesus's death came from the Sadducees and Pharisees, with Pilate reluctantly acquiescing. For understandable reasons, present-day Jews dislike this account.

Basically I do not think it is right to change, and therefore fictionalise, the Gospel account by making the Romans the prime-movers. The best solution would be to show that it was a powerful Jewish faction that wanted Jesus dead, and that there were many Jews who supported Jesus.

This might not please all objectors, but lying about what happened is not right.

 

[Brimshack]

That solution seems somewhat reasonable, but it would not necessarily be lying to go at variance with the scriptures. Treated as any other historical document, one might very well ask why the Gospels lay the blame so squarely at the hands of Jewish leaders rather than Roman leaders? You will anser because that is what happened, but it is at least as likely that there was some spin to that writing in itself. If you assume Biblical innerancy, then so be it, but that is not a question of HISTORICAL accuracy.

 

[Chilldogg77]

The way I sees it, the truth is the bottom line. If the truth offends someone, and they're scared that people might use the truth to hate or hurt them, that's too bad. I don't know much about the movie or about the history of the time, so I'm not an expert. It's true that everyone from Adam down is responsible for the death and of Jesus, but it's also true that specific Jews and specific Romans killed him in an even more direct way. There's no escaping that. And from what I remember of scripture, the Jews were all for having His death put on them and their children. I'm not saying Jews aren't saved, or Jews are bad, I realize Jesus was Jewish. But there is nothing wrong with portraying the truth about an event in a movie. I hope that's what will happen.

 

[Brimshack]

See this sentence:

"And from what I remember of scripture, the Jews were all for having His death put on them and their children."

There is the problem. You say a lot of things, but for just the moment you go from saying that (some) jews were involved in the killing of Jesus to a universal statement that implicates every Jew since that time. Such views have quite literally been the source of a great number of attrocities against Jews. Truth is indeed worth saying, even if it is a problem, but that is hardly a rigorous concern for the truth as such. The question is to what degree does the movie propmote this sort of wreckless dabbling in antisemitism. I don't know for sure, I haven't seen the movie,. but this is about the 3rd or 4th time I've seen someone describe Jews in such a manner as a direct response to this topic. If the movie itself shows any of the same sensibilities, then I don't blame anyone for expressing concerns over the matter.

 

[Icystwolf]

This one has my blood boiling. Here we have Jews in a blather over Mel Gibson's upcoming movie THE PASSION. They want him to edit, change, make the movie INACCURATE considering the events that in the last 12 hours of Christ's life, during the arrest, interrogations, punishements, and finally the crucifixion. Essentially they want a whitewash of the COMPLIXITY of the Jewish leaders of the day, exhonerating the Jewish establishment, and transferral of the deed to the Romans. What blather.



I fear that Mel will be forced to rewrite the script of this movie, and the reality of that awful day will be lost.



Source: ADL online site

And this guy that sent me this email had my position on the brink. I covered his/her identity.

Can you believe it?
I wrote in my signiture that I loved Jesus'n'everything, and some jew comes up and complains.

Dosn't matter anymore, I'm dropping my position at the end of this year, so I may as well show this.

And you know what the Biggest problem is, next thing you know, they'll be joining in the protest with the gay society, to have the Bible changed and rewritten.

Propaganda, yeh right. I may as well complain to him/her about how offended I was, when they tried to change the whole gospel. The Jewish authorities at that time are as guilty of murder of an innocent human, son of God.

Jesus has said it so well, they kill prophets. Now they're trying to kill his name....

This is the email that had me busted, and had my mentor executive position on the line.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:22:53 +1100
From: **** <****@student.unsw.edu.au>
To: Jimmy Ng <jngx105@cse.unsw.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Prefered or CSE email accounts

Jesus was killed by the romans not by the jews!!
please do not send me any more propoganda.

****


At 04:39 7/03/02 +1100, you wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm Jimmy from the mentor program, currently I don't have your
prefered
>email or cse email accounts which makes it slightly difficult for me
and
>any other mentor executives to contact you on events.
>
>If possible, could you please send me your prefered email.
>
>Also, just quickly, on the 15th Friday of march, there is a DVD night.
>Food will be pizza with Drinks(no alcohol), and I'll have 3 selections
of
>DVD for you to choose on
>the night. Also it is free.
>For the mentees, it's not compulsary for you to come, but if you do
it'll
>be a good night to chat to others.
>
>Thanks
>
>Jimmy Ng!!!
>
>
>
>_-_-_-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_- _-_-
_-_-
>Imagine a world where trust does not exist, and neither does the truth
>about love. A world where God only exist only in words, and agreements
is
>made under survival tactics. A world where anyone can think about
>murdering others and covering them up, a world that forces you to
survive
>by utalising evil. A world that relys on manipulated people whom see
>nothing but more wealth and power. A world that plays on your
weaknesses
>to strengthen others, A world that hides it's face under a successful
>beautiful mask. A world that hates sharing but encourages greed, and
makes
>you think that the world is becoming a successful utopia.
>
>Is this your world?
>
>Jesus, the most loving and remembered person, killed by Jewish
authorities
>
>The Roman Empire slaughtered slaves and watched men eaten by lions,
>
>Hitler took on Jews to create a better world, in his opinion his
utopia.
>
>--At those times, authorities think they were right and so did the
>citizens,
>
>So who's turn is it now?
>
>

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Well with the anti-semitic overtones, we won't have to worry about it saving any Jews now will we?

I just had to smile at this quote, Son.....

Who saves again? Ill give ya a hint, its definately not movies or anything you and I can or even cant do.

Endtimes is GODs plan for the Jews, and this movie just might play a big part. Im looking forward to that for their sake. Plenty will happen for them at that time.

As to who Christ was FOR..... the entire world, one and all for the taking.

Israel is GODs chosen, but the world is GODs love (John 3:16). His chosen has rejected Him in Christ and anything that has happened to them from that final point of rejection (as indeed they have a terrible history of rejection and falling away- just read the OT accounts) on is just part of GODs will within their rejection.

Little understanding of GODs will/plan might cause you a bit of offense is what is posted here, but that will be on your part, not mine, to deal with where these statements are concerned.

Observing the Jews of Israel is like watching a rebellious child get in and out of trouble. There is not much one can do but sit back and watch while the Lord works on them. One can try hard to say that outside sources have caused the trouble (ie anti-semitism) but the actual problems rest only with the heart of the matter the Jew's stand on Christ.

 

[Icystwolf]

Observing the Jews of Israel is like watching a rebellious child get in and out of trouble. There is not much one can do but sit back and watch while the Lord works on them. One can try hard to say that outside sources have caused the trouble (ie anti-semitism) but the actual problems rest only with the heart of the matter the Jew's stand on Christ.

I find it strange the jews arn't realising theres more growing hatred against them. First it's the palenstinian issue, then it's about being offensive at things, and now changing the scriptures.

explains why pro-hitler supports actually exists and starting to grow again.

Where ever they're walking, looks like theres a sandpit waiting for them to drop in.

 

[Woodsy]

It sometimes seems unfortunate to me that the word "Jews" is the only word we have to describe all people of Jewish descent, regardless of their religiousness or lack thereof.

Most American Jews in the public eye are atheists, agnostics, or extremely Liberal Reform Jews. Scripture means nothing to them, and for many, religion itself is considered an enemy of progress.

Jews have had it rough in many parts of the world for many years. As a result, they seek justice for the downtrodden here in America. Unfortunately, these Jews have for the most part rejected the God of Abraham, ISaac, and Jacob. As such, their quest for justice is not rooted in the unchanging nature of right and wrong, but in the personal predilections of contemporary society. They have no rock on which to build. In addition so many of us Jews have forgotten the times when we were strong and righteous.

Today, any Jew who stands up for timeless truths is looked upon as a problem by his fellow Jews. I remember my atheist grandmother telling me to stay away from Orthodox Jews because "they are crazy."

And so, for American Jews, Israeli Jews are an embarassment. The Israelis stand up for their rights, and fight back. Liberal Jews think that this can only turn the world against Jews. They forget that Arabs were killing Jews long before the modern day State of Israel existed.

Most modern Jews, at least those most often in the public eye, have embraced "social causes" the way they once embraced Torah. They don't seem to realize that the American Left has more than its share of anti-Semitism, perhaps more than the Right has today. It's sad.

For an alternate view of American Jews, look at Rabbi Lapin's organization, Toward Tradition. He is a Torah-observant Jew who sees that religious Jews and religious Christians must work together to save American society from the secularism that is destroying it.

Unfortunately Rabbi Lapin seems to be in the minority, and all most Americans see are the Socialist Jews and the Communist Jews and the secular Jews who freak out whenever they hear Jesus' name in polite company.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Unfortunately Rabbi Lapin seems to be in the minority, and all most Americans see are the Socialist Jews and the Communist Jews and the secular Jews who freak out whenever they hear Jesus' name in polite company.

You know its not that often, if ever, that I think of a Jewish person as not being religious! When I meet a Jewish person, I automatically think of their time thats coming (A Christian mindset of Christ's Revelation for the chosen people), not anything else.

I picture rabbis racking back and forth at the wall with their ear curls going to and fro, wearing black beanies and being very frugal with money.

I dont picture an athiest. I suppose to be Jewish can also mean culture (aka race of sorts), rather than religion, but I never think of that.

My son had a Jewish teacher. I was excited to learn this and wanted to discuss with him (at the correct time) the Torah and tradition and whatnot; basically I wanted to learn a bit about it. But when I first mentioned my interest, he suprised me by not being involved in that stuff. I was almost sad for him - no not because of what I believe is in store for him, but because he seemed to have a lack of interest at all in the religious part of Judiasm.

Maybe Jews who embrace religion are now as rare as true Christian evengelicals with endtime thoughts.

 

[Chilldogg77]

I debated putting that line in, but I did because it was true. Now I don't believe that me saying that my children will be held responsible for my actions makes it so. That seems totally unfair to the children. But it is "the gospel truth" that that is what the jews who demanded his death wanted. Now that is true only for the actual jews demanding his death, I'm sure that there were a lot of jews who were sitting around at home. Now people could use that scripture to justify anti-semitism, but that would be ignorant and wrong. Jesus said to forgive everyone responsible for his death, and even if some ignorant person chooses to view Jews as their enemies, Jesus said to love your enemies. I think both Jews and Romans were responsible, but there aren't many people alive today who we tie to the Roman Empire, so we just blame it all on the Romans. It's easy to do. I just don't think we should be afraid to tell the truth because we're afraid that some ignorant people will misuse the truth, or because someone doesn't like the truth.