What Gave Satan an evil will?

[bibleblevr]

I have been reading the City Of God by St. Augustine, and he has been descussing what gave satan an evil will, he eventually concudes that he doesn't know, which surprised me.

He goes through the logic like this; Satan must have started with either a good will, a bad one, or no will. If a Good one, then it would never have willed to become bad. If an evil will, then where did this one come from? If no will at all, how is this possible? Nevertheless, did it come from his nature or something outside. If it was from his nature, was his nature good or bad? The scripture says it was good, so how could a good nature give way to a bad will? If an outside force, was it good or bad? If bad where did it come from? If good then how could it have created a bad will?


I contend that the flaw in this is that a good will can in fact be bad by striving to do good. The scripture tells us, "All a man's ways seem right to him If you ask Hitler was he a trying to do good or evil, he would respond he was trying to do good. A Good will when misinformed can and will do evil. What if Satan saw God doing something that, from his much simpler vantage point seemed to be wrong? What if his rebellion was on this account? After rebelling, he was cast down, and from then on his curse was separation from God, which results in darkness, sin, and misery, a state he is now in. His will now has been turned evil because he no longer exists in the light of God, Gods favor is now absent from him, and he is totally corrupt.

How do you guys explain Satan's evil will? Was it simply given to him by God( Insert Augustine's comment-- "Banish the thought!") Was he the creator of it? Did something else give it to him?

 

[Cain Spencer]

Dunno.

 

[Sarrapin]

bibleblevr,

What if Satan saw God doing something that, from his much simpler vantage point seemed to be wrong? What if his rebellion was on this account?

The Bible isn't explicit as to the specifics regarding his fall, but it does say that the devil's pride led to his fall and him being cast out from heaven (Isaiah 14:12-14). In effect he wanted to overthrow God. So this kind of removes the above suggestion that you made as to his fall.

The Bible also tells us that God created the devil to be the model of perfection, full in wisdom and perfect in beauty (Ezekiel 28:12-18). I personally believe that he, like the rest of the angels, were created perfect and sinless, yet they had the same free will (but to a greater degree) that we have. Perhaps it was him being slapped back down to size by God and then cast out of heaven that caused him to really hate God and all what He stands for.

After rebelling, he was cast down, and from then on his curse was separation from God, which results in darkness, sin, and misery, a state he is now in. His will now has been turned evil because he no longer exists in the light of God, Gods favor is now absent from him, and he is totally corrupt.

I would also agree with the above that you noted. In summary, I believe that he exercised his freewill to develop a hatred for God, and, as you said, he is totally corrupt. I believe the reason why there is no chance of redemption for him is because his rebellion and rejection of God was done in full knowledge of Him, contrasted with our first parent's rebellion who were deceived.

 

[bibleblevr]

bibleblevr,



The Bible isn't explicit as to the specifics regarding his fall, but it does say that the devil's pride led to his fall and him being cast out from heaven (Isaiah 14:12-14). In effect he wanted to overthrow God. So this kind of removes the above suggestion that you made as to his fall.

Isn't acting on the belief that God is wrong and you are right pride?

Where did his pride come from? he was created perfect, and was in a perfect environment, how can evil enter in? Pride was not in his nature.

I personally don't believe "free-will" is biblical, but even if I agreed with it, then the will must choose evil based on something, our wills are not random action generators that spit out actions based on nothing, we are rational beings and so are the angels, Satan choose to fall for some reason.

 

[hlaltimus]

Of the 3 unseen worlds allowed us in the bible, the world of the angels prior to the creation of Adam is the one which the scriptures tells us the very least about, followed by the unseen worlds of heaven and hell which are somewhat less secretive. Therefore, much opinion as to the state and fall of these angels is just that: Opinion. I have my own personal view, and leave it here as only another speculation to fall alongside of so many others, be they right or wrong.

Personally, I believe that Lucifer was created with a certain, limited creative ability which distinguished him from all other angels of the general class wherein some did fall. I also think that this was part of the "bait" that he posed to those who followed him in the rebellion: They, (in one sense,) didn't really need the Creator for power, as he, (Lucifer,) had already been endowed with that ability, and would accordingly supply enormous amounts of spiritual power to any and all followers through a network of lesser fallen angels now known as "Powers". I don't think that he had the ability to create identically as God Himself did...only he could apparently create in some other sense, and this is what made the creation of evil possible of which you ponder. God Almighty alone can create any atomic matter out of sheer vacumn, and Lucifer absolutely cannot. God Almighty can also create spiritual power out of mere nothingness and anywhere at all if he should so choose, (which he doesn't as he is already omnipotent,) but Lucifer could actually create spiritual power or manipulate existing matter into another form out of an existing supernatural faculty of some sort resident within his angelic being. There was a vital and catagorical difference though between the two that made Lucifer's rebellion the absolute height of folly and absurdity, only he apparently didn't think so at the time for reasons that are even yet more speculative.

This limited creative ability is the reason why our Lord Jesus termed Satan "the father of lies". Satan was the father of contradiction to the Creator's will, (or truth,) and so he was the original source of a lie, and can be credited as truly being the "creator" of a "lie", and not the Creator Himself. This creative act of Lucifer though does not deprive the Lord God of his solitary glory of being the absolute Creator of all, for it was He, (the Creator,) who had first endowed Lucifer with this yet unharnessed capacity, and so any conception of any acts what-so-ever by Lucifer, were only those which came from a potential that had to be given him if the first place by the Lord God. This difference made Lucifer a very limited and inferior sub-creator of sorts, while the Lord God remained, (as he always must,) an unlimited and infinitely superior creative Agent who has no equals any where or at any time and in any way.

The temptation though was present for at least some of the angels to view Lucifer as if he were a sufficient "god" proper, but they had no knowledge at all from any previous action of this kind by others before, and so they had no reference or credible evidence as to the feasibility of the proposal at all. It was a very unwise conception, for they failed to take into consideration the fact that the Creator still solely held the responsibility and right to maintain any and all animate or inanimate creation, of which they were still examples. "In Him all things consist", and "all things" included their very beings!!! They couldn't have possibly made a worse mistake, as even the evil substance of their being is allowed to exist by the Creator, and can be just as easily revoked at will by Him as it will be in the day of doom, but Lucifer's limited creative ability is what made the temptation to depart from God appear to be feasible upon superficial consideration. For this reason their apostasy appears to be somewhat impetuous, rash and uncarefully thought out, such as would be expected from a very immature individual who was given a potential that was far beyond the level of their maturity at the time, and that is why I believe that both they and Adam fell relatively early in their existence. If you follow then the careers of many ungodly and depraved sinners, you will unmistakably see this same uncareful and rash impetuosity to sin boldy, which characterization is due to the fact that their natures are in fact those which had their origin in "your father the devil", as Christ said of bold, blind and self-deceived sinners in his own day.

I also speculate that Lucifer only held this limited creative potential subordinately in a double sense, and was informed eventually by God that he, (Lucifer,) would be expected to subjugate his services to Adam when he was to be created, which secondary being would be superior in personal privilege to Lucifer, while Lucifer would still be superior in power, and that was the occasion for Lucifer's fall. Lucifer's motive in retaining this limited creative ability for his own ends was envy of another created being, (Man,) which being would be favored in a much greater way than he Lucifer had been favored. Lucifer's secondary-sense creation of "evil" was possible in some way by this limited creative ability which God had given him, as both the angels who fell and Adam's race were to represent their Creator in some way, and that is why both of them are called "Sons of God" in the scriptures. The angels who fell with Lucifer their leader would be "like" God in that they would be vessels for the creative (but limited) power of God, while Adam and his race were intended to be "like" God in that we were intended to be vessels for the person of God, a much, much higher privilege, though still inferior in power. This is largely speculation now, and is only theory.

 

[sungaunga]

Augustine was right. There is no way of knowing because the Bible doesn't tell us.

 

[tmanz12]

It was pride. Before man was seen as the apple of God's eye, Satan was the highest angel and second only to God(Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). He probably saw God's affection for man and got jealous like children do when they see their parents paying more attention to another and whatnot.

How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!
5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.” 9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”
18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
Let the offspring of the wicked
never be mentioned again.

 

[peregrinus inconcessus]

I’m new here and was intrigued by this post and I am interested to learn other’s thoughts concerning my own below.
The character traits and functionality of YHWH in the OT include (scriptural citations provided upon request): YHWH is the Creator. He is omniscient and He is all powerful (most agree to both). Nothing in Heaven or in Earth lives, moves, breathes, thinks, acts, etc., absent His Will. The lands and seas rise and fall, angels ascend and descend, the eyes, ears and understandings of man are opened, closed, hardened and healed according to His singular and perfect design. For Him there are no surprises (most agree).
How then, can we view this Satan to be anything more than an instrument of God – a tool created with a specific design and purpose to be used by God to further His own perfect Will? Free will or no, this Satan was commissioned by His creator to serve as an ‘adversary’. Examine Job (one of the best examples we have of Satan’s will and functions). YHWH consulted (if you will) Satan’s advice concerning this upright man. In YHWH’s other conversations – with Moses for instance – we find that Satan’s dialogue with YHWH here is not at all malicious nor is their intercourse reminiscent of any enmity – it is conducted in the same manner as when YHWH speaks to any of His vassals. Anyway . . . Satan commits no acts behind the back of YHWH – he acts upon the expressed permission of YHWH alone. To suggest otherwise would be blasphemy, no?
There are few other references of Satan at all in the OT. ‘Descriptions’ of him and the characteristics traditionally associated with Satan in the OT are foreign to Judaism. Even the reference of ‘Lucifer’ has never been credibly connected with Satan – and the Jews hold that it never has. The retroactive ‘demonization’ (no pun intended) of Satan seems more likely to have been influenced by the multitude of polytheistic cults present around the first-century and elevates him as an individual to a level of much more importance and power (the Book of Revelation notwithstanding - can discuss later...).

 

[Jpark]

Evil was inherently formed in Satan, presumably by his desires.

God did not create evil. God preordained it's appearance into existence, but He did not create it.

God merely gave Satan free will in that instance (and later took it) which is how Satan was able to refuse to serve Him when presented with the option to serve Him.

James 3:14-15 might be the key to this problem.

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.

The two aforementioned desires could have been the precedent for the formation of evil in Satan. Jealousy and ambition are derived from God's emotions so they are not sinful or evil in themselves; the human emotions are merely corrupted.

It is possible that since angels are spiritual beings, it is possible that they have the capability to manifest evil influences within them.

Alas, it is all speculation and the best answer to this question is, only God knows.

 

[MrPolo]

Satan was given a "free will." In order for it to be a genuinely free created will (which God is perfectly capable of creating and bestowing), a being must be able to choose between a good or bad, or the free will God created isn't really free. So Satan simply used his will to commit evil because God granted him the freedom to do so. If one takes the analogy further, asking "what made Satan" choose evil, then one has departed from the original premise that Satan's will was FREE.

There is a tradition that says the fallen angels over-rated the perfection of their own selves, making a failure in judgment, and choosing eternal damnation over God due to this self-imposed blindness.

 

[peregrinus inconcessus]

Isaiah 45.7

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ} I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am YHWH, that doeth all these things. (emphasis mine)[/font]


Enough said . . . but more follows.
Exodus 4.11

וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֵלָיו, מִי שָׂם פֶּה לָאָדָם, אוֹ מִי-יָשׂוּם אִלֵּם, אוֹ חֵרֵשׁ אוֹ פִקֵּחַ אוֹ עִוֵּר--הֲלֹא אָנֹכִי, יְהוָה. And YHWH said unto him: 'Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh a man dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? is it not I YHWH? (emphasis mine)[/font]


Job1.21

וַיֹּאמֶר עָרֹם יָצָתִי מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, וְעָרֹם אָשׁוּב שָׁמָּה--יְהוָה נָתַן, וַיהוָה לָקָח; יְהִי שֵׁם יְהוָה, מְבֹרָךְ. And he said; naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither; YHWH gave, and YHWH hath taken away; blessed be the name of YHWH. (emphasis mine)[/font]


God is God. He acts according to His own design and He is above and beyond our scrutiny (and understanding, yes?). To say that He is not the progenitor of ‘evil’ is to diminish Him. The Israelites understood this (and many modern Jewish sects still do) – they credited no one other then YHWH their God with ‘good’ and/or ‘evil’ – they understood that whatever transpired in heaven and earth was the perfect Will and device of YHWH. He was/is not subject to our contemporary views and philosophies regarding ‘morality’ and ‘ethics’. He is the worker of His Will, which is beyond our reproach to say whether or not it is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ OR FAIR (i.e., overriding another’s own ‘free will’). Again, I have references; don’t take my word for it . . . apparently Jesus understood (and reinforced) this concept as well:

Matthew 5.45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for HE maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (emphasis mine)

God is God. He IS the Creator. This IS His Creation. It functions perfectly in accordance to His design and Will – no thought (‘free will&#8217 or act of angel, man or beast can EVER change that. Only petty human arrogance says otherwise. We ‘earthen vessels’ abandon this concept when we reinterpret the scriptures to align with our own limited sense of social human morality.

Thoughts welcome . . .

 

[Jpark]

Isaiah 45.7

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ} I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am YHWH, that doeth all these things. (emphasis mine)[/font]

Since when is peace and evil antonyms? The proper word here is calamity. Peace and calamity.

Enough said . . . but more follows.
Exodus 4.11

וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֵלָיו, מִי שָׂם פֶּה לָאָדָם, אוֹ מִי-יָשׂוּם אִלֵּם, אוֹ חֵרֵשׁ אוֹ פִקֵּחַ אוֹ עִוֵּר--הֲלֹא אָנֹכִי, יְהוָה. And YHWH said unto him: 'Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh a man dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? is it not I YHWH? (emphasis mine)[/font]


Job1.21

וַיֹּאמֶר עָרֹם יָצָתִי מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, וְעָרֹם אָשׁוּב שָׁמָּה--יְהוָה נָתַן, וַיהוָה לָקָח; יְהִי שֵׁם יְהוָה, מְבֹרָךְ. And he said; naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither; YHWH gave, and YHWH hath taken away; blessed be the name of YHWH. (emphasis mine)[/font]

Again, calamity. Mute, deaf, and blind are God's doing, not sin (John 9:2-3; Luke 13:1-5), but these are not evil. They are misfortunate.

Again, calamity. What happened to Job was not evil, but misfortunate.

To say that He is not the progenitor of ‘evil’ is to diminish Him.

John 8:44 identifies Satan as the father of lies. Lies can be evil. If God is the father of evil, then does this mean He is the father of lies?

Perhaps God is the father of calamity and misfortune, but He is certainly not the father of evil. Evil originated in Satan. The existence of evil was in God's will, but evil was not created by Him.

The Israelites understood this (and many modern Jewish sects still do) – they credited no one other then YHWH their God with ‘good’ and/or ‘evil’ – they understood that whatever transpired in heaven and earth was the perfect Will and device of YHWH.

Yes, everything that happens is God's perfect will, but this crediting should not turn into blaming. It should not hold God responsible for the things that transpired.

 

[MrPolo]

Isaiah 45.7

יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ} I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am YHWH, that doeth all these things. (emphasis mine)[/font]


Enough said . . . but more follows.
Exodus 4.11

וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֵלָיו, מִי שָׂם פֶּה לָאָדָם, אוֹ מִי-יָשׂוּם אִלֵּם, אוֹ חֵרֵשׁ אוֹ פִקֵּחַ אוֹ עִוֵּר--הֲלֹא אָנֹכִי, יְהוָה. And YHWH said unto him: 'Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh a man dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? is it not I YHWH? (emphasis mine)[/font]


Job1.21

וַיֹּאמֶר עָרֹם יָצָתִי מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, וְעָרֹם אָשׁוּב שָׁמָּה--יְהוָה נָתַן, וַיהוָה לָקָח; יְהִי שֵׁם יְהוָה, מְבֹרָךְ. And he said; naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither; YHWH gave, and YHWH hath taken away; blessed be the name of YHWH. (emphasis mine)[/font]


God is God. He acts according to His own design and He is above and beyond our scrutiny (and understanding, yes?). To say that He is not the progenitor of ‘evil’ is to diminish Him. The Israelites understood this (and many modern Jewish sects still do) – they credited no one other then YHWH their God with ‘good’ and/or ‘evil’ – they understood that whatever transpired in heaven and earth was the perfect Will and device of YHWH. He was/is not subject to our contemporary views and philosophies regarding ‘morality’ and ‘ethics’. He is the worker of His Will, which is beyond our reproach to say whether or not it is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ OR FAIR (i.e., overriding another’s own ‘free will’). Again, I have references; don’t take my word for it . . . apparently Jesus understood (and reinforced) this concept as well:

Matthew 5.45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for HE maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (emphasis mine)

God is God. He IS the Creator. This IS His Creation. It functions perfectly in accordance to His design and Will – no thought (‘free will’) or act of angel, man or beast can EVER change that. Only petty human arrogance says otherwise. We ‘earthen vessels’ abandon this concept when we reinterpret the scriptures to align with our own limited sense of social human morality.

Thoughts welcome . . .

You present verses worthy of examination, but they should be understood in light of God is love and all that, no? I believe St. Thomas Aquinas deciphered much of this in the Summa (maybe someone has a reference), that in the sense that God permits evil and He is almighty, the texts you present could be understood the same way. However, they do not necessarily make Him direct cause of evil.

 

[peregrinus inconcessus]

Isaiah 45.7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am YHWH, that doeth all these things. (emphasis mine)

Since when is peace and evil antonyms? The proper word here is calamity. Peace and calamity.

Just because one says they do THIS and/or THAT, does not mean that the THIS and/or THAT must indicate that the two things are antonyms (or even synonyms, etc.). They could be either an antonym or a synonym or even semi (or not related) – i.e., “I make ‘good’ muffins and I make ‘okay’ muffins” (not bad muffins here – you follow?). In any event, we appear to be mincing words a bit. I trust more to the Hebrew word as it is most often used in context (and out of it). The JPS (1917) Tanakh version translates this (objectively and without prejudice) as ‘evil’ – I tend to trust this translation as it lacks the Hellenistic influences that affected our later ‘Christian’ translators/translations. On another note, even in plain, modern English sources (The Original Roget’s Thesaurus of English Words and Phrases, 1965, equates ‘calamity’ to ‘evil’ – primary). Anyway . . .

Exodus 4.11
And YHWH said unto him: 'Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh a man dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? is it not I YHWH? (emphasis mine)

Job1.21
And he said; naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither; YHWH gave, and YHWH hath taken away; blessed be the name of YHWH. (emphasis mine)

Again, calamity. Mute, deaf, and blind are God's doing, not sin (John 9:2-3; Luke 13:1-5), but these are not evil. They are misfortunate.

Again, calamity. What happened to Job was not evil, but misfortunate.

Not at all to be insulting (I respect you all and do enjoy this dialogue), I think you’re missing the point. ‘Calamity’, I spoke to above. Your scriptural references actually support my point – God is the creator and originator and the personal bestower of these ‘misfortunes’. ‘Misfortune’ is the result, NOT the intent/purpose/motivation behind the cause.

To say that He is not the progenitor of ‘evil’ is to diminish Him.

John 8:44 identifies Satan as the father of lies. Lies can be evil. If God is the father of evil, then does this mean He is the father of lies?

This, I could debate (perhaps fruitlessly here?) beginning in Genesis through Revelation. But allow me to inject a little OBJECTIVE reasoning – WITHOUT diminishing the intelligence and forethought of God (more later).

Imagine I was creating a machine (android, etc.), which I knew (if created) would go on to do – we’ll say ‘calamitous’ – harm of various sorts to the town I have built (and the people I govern there). Where does the responsibility lie? Most of our ‘just’ governments in the Western world would indiscriminately charge both.

The majority would charge us equally – some would lay the greater blame on me, considering my actions to have been premeditated in causing these crimes.

But I am certainly NOT The Almighty. His perfect actions (perceived by us as ‘good’ or ‘evil&#8217 are beyond our ability to scrutinize.

Perhaps God is the father of calamity and misfortune, but He is certainly not the father of evil. Evil originated in Satan. The existence of evil was in God's will, but evil was not created by Him.

I’m not sure how to respond to this . . . other than to observe that you give (and empower) Satan with far more credit and standing than he could ever deserve. I invite you to reread your two sentences here a few times. (again, in no way am I attempting to be condescending)

The Israelites understood this (and many modern Jewish sects still do) – they credited no one other then YHWH their God with ‘good’ and/or ‘evil’ – they understood that whatever transpired in heaven and earth was the perfect Will and device of YHWH.

Yes, everything that happens is God's perfect will, but this crediting should not turn into blaming. It should not hold God responsible for the things that transpired.

God cannot be ‘blamed/credited’ for anything other than fully bringing to pass His perfect Will. Here, again, I invite you to reread these statements – are they not the very definition of a paradox?

Thanks for the input guys - more welcome =]

 

[peregrinus inconcessus]

To make the heart of my point clearer:

Consider the converse.

Imagine I was creating a machine (android, etc.), which I knew (if created) would go on to do ‘wondrous’ works of blessings various sorts to the town I have built (and the people I govern there). Where does the responsibility lie?

Say the ‘android’ in this example were a prophet or even Jesus or just a plain old humble man of God. As Christians, what would have been our response? I dare say we would have called this God’s Will and praised and thanked Him, no?

NOW look at this verse again, from the context and viewpoint of the inspired author:

Job1.21
And he said; naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither; YHWH gave, and YHWH hath taken away; blessed be the name of YHWH.

 

[RibI]

What Gave Satan an evil will?

His own pride. Nothing more, nothing less; he did it all by himself.

 

[Son of Israel]

Here is the origin of evil and sin;

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here is when that happened;

(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
(Gen 3:7) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

There is no other "sin" before that.

 

[peregrinus inconcessus]

Here is the origin of evil and sin;

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here is when that happened;

(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
(Gen 3:7) And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

There is no other "sin" before that.

May I ask - what, apart, perhaps, form traditional Christian philosophy, leads you to believe that evil is synonomous with sin? I ask, becuase, the scriptual citiation you give ceratinly describes the account of the first sin, but I am unclear as to your reference for this being the first 'evil'??? In either case here, I see a potential dilema with modern Christian doctrine - and I'm not saying that's bad (or good) . . . it is what it is . . .

Logically, if Adam's is the first 'sin' and the first 'evil', then we must admit that: 1) Satan did not yet exist (or was still quite the 'good guy') prior to Adam - he was performing his appointed task by tempting Eve in the Garden (God's directed Will - neither sinning or doing evil); or 2) Satan was NOT the serpent in the Garden.

 

[RibI]

Satan sinned first.

Ezek. 28:14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “ By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned;

 

[Son of Israel]

May I ask - what, apart, perhaps, form traditional Christian philosophy, leads you to believe that evil is synonomous with sin? I ask, becuase, the scriptual citiation you give ceratinly describes the account of the first sin, but I am unclear as to your reference for this being the first 'evil'??? In either case here, I see a potential dilema with modern Christian doctrine - and I'm not saying that's bad (or good) . . . it is what it is . . .

Logically, if Adam's is the first 'sin' and the first 'evil', then we must admit that: 1) Satan did not yet exist (or was still quite the 'good guy') prior to Adam - he was performing his appointed task by tempting Eve in the Garden (God's directed Will - neither sinning or doing evil); or 2) Satan was NOT the serpent in the Garden.

I wouldn't recommend ditching scripture and its meaning to replace it with the idea that evil doesn't result from sin.

Honestly, who in their right mind, the Mind of Christ, would say that the first sin wasn't the first evil?? How can anyone justify that?

Evil is the transgression of God's Word. When did that first evil sin occur EVER?

(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Why did she do this?
Because of the "LUST" within her that she didn't overcome with the Word of the Lord. Here is that exact same lust defined;

(2Pe 1:4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Why do we lust?

(1Jn 2:16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

It is our way. It is being "worldly". It is how we were created;

He created us vain and self serving;

(Rom 8:20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Why?

"In Hope".

(2Co 4:7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Sin is an evil act. That is where evil comes from. As a result of the act.

To be tempted isn't evil. Nobody would argue that I hope. Jesus was tempted to sin but He wasn't evil of course. He didn't sin, therefore righteousness is exhibited.
What Christian doesn't know that evil is the act of sin after being tempted!? Honestly? And how many scriptures will clarify that?

NO scripture will suggest that evil exists apart or "before" sin.

It is certainly ignoble to suggest that, as Adam and Eve did, we are to try to "logic" it out with our insufficient carnal minds of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". Let's let God tell us, then believe it, then receive enlightenment. He is quite plain and clear about it.

It is silly to say evil existed before sin. THAT sure doesn't come from the Lord. The first sin was the first evil act and it was disobedience to God's spoken Word by Adam. No "reasoning" needed here. Let's not attempt to slice and dice the word of God up until it matches our inventions.

It is an important thing to know who and how sin and evil came into the world. Was it by Adam? Or someone else?

The "subtle serpent of the beasts of the field" can easily be identified in scripture. Just ask, "who are the beasts of the field" in scripture? (For those who don't know, check out one hint in Acts where Peter saw a sheet descending from heaven 3 times full of them...Compare Acts 10:12,13... to Acts 10:34,35. Read that scripture again. Or another hint in Hosea 2:18... or... )

The scriptures I cited are clear to me. But they don't include all that extra stuff I've been seeing here about some super spook running around being "evil" prior to Adam's temptation. That is bad business to say such things. It is paganism and mysticism and demonology.

If there is any lack of misunderstanding in this, we should examine our "tradional christian philosophy" and dump it for the word of God .
WHO would possibly imagine otherwise than God's Word? Everyone.
That is why we need it and should go by it.

Anything else is supposition, tradition and "logic", which will decieve and destroy.

Fact. Whoever that self serving person was who produced a beguiling word to eve, it wasn't anyone special. He was just a "beast of the field which the Lord God created". He wasn't under any "law" for none had been given until God spoke the first commandment into existence;

(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Sin didn't exist until after the first law was given, which was, "thou shalt not eat..." in the garden.

(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

(Rom 7:7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

By this Law we know we are corrupt, corruption brings forth evil;

(Mat 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

We are naturally corrupt and sinful and bring forth evil because we are Adam's offspring;

(Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Rom 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(Rom 5:14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Out of the heart of MAN is where evil comes from;

(Mat 15:19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

So who was the "person" from which the first evil came into existence?

Adam.

Who is the person NOW who tempts us? As above, our own lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes and the pride of life.

Now we all know "who" satan is.

And Jesus destroyed His tempter;

(Heb 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Now He is destroying my devil/sin/evil/satan.

Praise the Name of Jesus

Blessings