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When we are saved by grace are we considered sinless or not? Did the Law save us or not?
I don't see it. Grace isn't to keep from sinning it is forgiveness from previous sin and future sin via trust in the one who administers grace. The Holy Spirit empowers us to resist sin if we listen to him. The Law doesn't give us this "look like" at all God was righteous without the Law so it is UNNEEDED as an example. Our example is God himself not the Law at all. We are to walk in love not in the Law that is our example of what to "look like".This would be true if the purpose of grace was forgiveness only. But the truth is that we can flee to grace to keep from sinning. "Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more". The only purpose of the law is to show what we should "look like" if we were righteous- but it has no power to effect that change in us itself. Only grace- only God, not man- can make that happen.
Nonsense, you have people that cannot be saved UNTIL they start keeping the Law which is contrary to the Gospel. The Gospel says we are saved while IN SIN... (lawbreakers, not lawkeepers).By the keeping of the law will no one be saved. Only by grace through faith will you be saved. It is a free gift. But to whom will this gift be given? Will it be given to those who practice righteousness or those who practice iniquity?
the Law does nothing for us but leads us around in circles confusing us about sin and our relationship to God.
Yes, the law shows us, in basic terms, what it looks like to love. But only God can cause us to love as He desires us to, as we need to in order to refrain from sinning-in order to obey His law for man, in order to simply be who He created us to be. 'Love fulfills the law'. Rom 13:8. It doesn't replace the law; it simply fulfills it, but the right way, by the Spirit rather than by the letter. This is the purpose of grace. 'With man this is impossible, with God all things are possible'. 'Apart from Me you can do nothing'-the New Covenant in a nutshell.I don't see it. Grace isn't to keep from sinning it is forgiveness from previous sin and future sin via trust in the one who administers grace. The Holy Spirit empowers us to resist sin if we listen to him. The Law doesn't give us this "look like" at all God was righteous without the Law so it is UNNEEDED as an example. Our example is God himself not the Law at all. We are to walk in love not in the Law that is our example of what to "look like".
We are to walk in love not in the Law
No, the Law doesn't show us our relationship to God because it is not mentioned in many relationships to God in the Bible but is surprisingly ABSENT from such relationships that is has to be IMPLIED to it having existed in such situations by word games.The law {the 10 commandments} does not lead us in circles. But it does show our relationship to God.
So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?By the keeping of the law will no one be saved. Only by grace through faith will you be saved. It is a free gift. But to whom will this gift be given? Will it be given to those who practice righteousness or those who practice iniquity?
Nonsense, you have people that cannot be saved UNTIL they start keeping the Law which is contrary to the Gospel. The Gospel says we are saved while IN SIN... (lawbreakers, not lawkeepers).
Grace IS given to those who practice iniquity because THEY are the ones that NEED it. I do however say that once someone who truly believes accepts grace they will desire to practice iniquity less but they will still sin (and in some cases do things contrary to the Law).
I forgot to mention... how does one "practice" righteousness?So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?
bugkiller
No, the Law doesn't show us our relationship to God because it is not mentioned in many relationships to God in the Bible but is surprisingly ABSENT from such relationships that is has to be IMPLIED to it having existed in such situations by word games.
I forgot to mention... how does one "practice" righteousness?
The only way I can think of is BY FAITH.
Read Jer 31:31-34 and the Gospels Mat 26:28, MK 14:24, and LK 22:20.The law {the 10 commandments} does not lead us in circles. But it does show our relationship to God.
MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.
PSALMS 119 [113] I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.[114] Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.[115] DEPART FROM ME, YE EVILDOERS: FOR I WILL KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MY GOD.[116] Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
Depart from me! Seems there will be many people who will be saying I believe when Jesus returns. Who had talked of Jesus and spoke in his name. Some that even have cast out devils in the name of Jesus. But in that day Jesus will say to the many, depart from me...I never knew you.
1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Theres the people who know God and will given the free gift. They that observe to keep Gods 10 commandments. Read the 4th. Remember....
TITUS 1 [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, AND DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.
In Titus you will find people that profess they know God (they say they believe) but in works they deny Him. They do not know God.
Here we go with the word games again... there are only two commandments John talks about Love God and love your neighbor. Love is easily a part of any close relationship but you want to demand rules and regulations in a relationship which isn't normally valid unless we have a master/slave or employer/employee type relationship.1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I guess i dont understand your meaning of the word "relationship"
No... if you can't express it as I have without running around cutting and pasting out of context scriptures I don't want to backtrack to read it.Go to post 254. Many scriptures to answer your question
To apply the verses you quote and apply in the manner you do violates the OT Scripture as well as the NT Scripture.Yes, the law shows us, in basic terms, what it looks like to love. But only God can cause us to love as He desires us to, as we need to in order to refrain from sinning-in order to obey His law for man, in order to simply be who He created us to be. 'Love fulfills the law'. Rom 13:8. It doesn't replace the law; it simply fulfills it, but the right way, by the Spirit rather than by the letter. This is the purpose of grace. 'With man this is impossible, with God all things are possible'. 'Apart from Me you can do nothing'-the New Covenant in a nutshell.
Following Christ is more than following an example; it's to have His life in us, to commune with God. This is what is missing in man-what his injustice consists of-this is what Jesus came to reconcile via the Atonement. IOW, man doesn't need to fulfill the law in order to be at one with God, rather man must first of all be at one with God in order to fulfill His law. This is the relationship that Adam shattered and no amount of law-observance or putting on a pretense of holiness will change that fact.
So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?
bugkiller
Of course.So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?
bugkiller
No... if you can't express it as I have without running around cutting and pasting out of context scriptures I don't want to backtrack to read it.
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