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Homosexuality and abortion aren't either political or moral. They are both. The politics decide what the government should do about something while the morals decide what the individual should do.Watcher-for-your-soul said:That's the reason it's not actually "confused" as the referred to poster stated. It is as you stated, unusual to find Christians who share that mix of traits so it is generally assumed that liberal one means liberal the other.
To the Christian, issues like homosexuality and abortion are not political, neither are they "trendy" but matters of great importance scripturally and a matter of life and death when referring to abortion. If we did not find a strong scriptural reason for objections to them, there would be no reason to take up those causes. The only Christians I know who will debate those issues for political reasons are "Christian politicians", few as they actually may be.
That does not negate the importance of social issues and spreading the word which is the single most important thing any Christian can do. The causes are not mutually exclusive of each other, and all should be taken up for scriptural reasons only, never to make a political point.
Anthony said:Liberal Christians are Burger King Christians; You know have it your way. They pick and chose those parts they like and throw out the rest.
Existential1 said:Hi,
What distinguishes Jesus, is the absolute strength of his faith: a faith in god, so absolute that its outcomes were miraculous, mountains moved; and that today we should still think of him first, when we think of that human being who got it right.
Jesus embraced those he met, there were few he had to fight and shame: he redeemed; he manifested god, always said look past me and what i do, and see my father.
Jesus said that we were all god's children; all open to the forgiveness inherent in god.
Perhaps what we might be best about, in manifesting god: is seeking out that ground, that is and manifests god; that sees us all as arising from that ground.
Liberals, Christians, Fundamentalists, and all the other forms we each give each other, all arise through our diverse faith actions, and all arise in god.
What we share is god and faith. That seems something overwhelmingly massive. Are the differences of the forms we each give faith and god, really all that important, when weighed against the power of faith, and the quality of god presence.
Take care, god bless.
Thankyou to everyone whose witnesses all encouraged mine.
God really is good.
Well put!Liberals, Christians, Fundamentalists, and all the other forms we each give each other, all arise through our diverse faith actions, and all arise in god.
What we share is god and faith. That seems something overwhelmingly massive. Are the differences of the forms we each give faith and god, really all that important, when weighed against the power of faith, and the quality of god presence.
sjgore15 said:Those who are happy to adopt the label 'liberal' generally see him as the ultimate in humanity and his death as a great example of sacrifice in difficult circumstances. Conservatives see him as the unique Son of God who died in our place.
Hello and welcome, Samantha! (You, too, chalice_thunder!)sjgore15 said:Those who are happy to adopt the label 'liberal' generally see him as the ultimate in humanity and his death as a great example of sacrifice in difficult circumstances. Conservatives see him as the unique Son of God who died in our place.
Hi Samantha,sjgore15 said:Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,
I did say 'generally'...
There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.
In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.
Regards, Samantha
sjgore15 said:Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,
I did say 'generally'...
There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.
In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.
Regards, Samantha
Sometimes it's a matter of definition.sjgore15 said:Dear Elanar and Chalice_thunder,
I did say 'generally'...
There's a spectrum of thought in every category. We all start our Christian life from different points, different personality types, different life experiences, and all of these will influence our views and subsequent growth. But I believe that our attitude to Jesus is the ultimate decider. Because of who he is and what he has done for us.
In discussion on other sites I came across a number of people who called themselves liberal and who found the idea of Jesus dying for us to be abhorrent. Maybe they were actually a minority of those caling themselves liberals.
Regards, Samantha
Karl - Liberal Backslider said:Sometimes it's a matter of definition.
I find the idea of penal substitutionary atonement abhorrent, especially when it's reduced to "Barney sins so God punishes Jesus instead of Barney so that Barney gets let off". That doesn't mean I don't believe that Jesus died for us.
(http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/believe.htm)Christianity has always held, from the earliest days, that Jesus was both fully God and fully Human. He was not God prancing around in a man-suit pretending to be human, but rather He ate, drank, slept, cried, rejoiced, farted and so forth. Nor was He just an extra special man with a few magic tricks and a hotline to heaven, but He really was God with man. Now, this is something of a tension, even a paradox, especially when ideas such as omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are considered primary attributes of God, as clearly Jesus was none of these - if He had been, He could hardly have been human. No, He was God who had taken on the limitations of being human. There's lots of learned material on the incarnation, as this concept is known, and it's worth looking up.
I believe that Jesus' very person embodies reconciliation of God with man, inasmuch as Jesus is both. However, in order to fully reconcile all that being human entails, this God-man needs to suffer, at least in part, all the **** things that happen to people. Injustice, innocent suffering, persecution, intolerance, and so on. Therefore, only by Jesus' death in the manner in which it occurred is the reconciliation between God and man fully made.
There is a story told, entitled The Long Silence. In this, the scene is judgement day. And many people are unhappy that God is going to stand in judgement over them, for various reasons. They point out the injustices they have suffered, the pain they have experienced, and so on, whilst God, up in heaven, has not had to go through all this. Who the hell is He to pass judgement on them?
They get together and create a series of demands that God must go through before He can have any right to criticise, let alone judge, them. He must be born to a people dominated by an oppressive occupying force. His birth is to be shrouded in shame and scandal. He must be forced to go into hiding for his life whilst still a child. He must be betrayed by his closest friends, slandered and unjustly condemned. Then He must be tortured, and executed in a shameful and agonising manner. Then there is silence as it is realised that God has already served this sentence.
Now, whilst this story is told in the context of judgement, which I think is a shame, it illustrates the full meaning of the incarnation. This incarnational theology carries on beyond the Resurrection and onto the Ascension. The Ascension receives precious little attention from many apologists, and I think that this is a great shame. Jesus ascension as still Man and God takes humanity permanently into God. We have a stake in Gods nature. The upshot of all this is that everything it means to be human is to be found within God, and everything it means to be God has been found within a Man. Thus is our reconciliation with God made possible. What this means can only be worked out by the individuals own walk in faith.
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